Letters are a lively and rewarding aspect of our work.
We are thankful for all expressions of support -- there have been many -- and for the donations.
To conserve space we have refrained from publishing all of the appreciative remarks. This in NO way diminishs our gratitude. Please keep those LETTERS coming...
Correspondence:
CONCERNS ABOUT HILLSONG
Shalom in Yeshua: I am seeking easy-to-read condensed information for the pastor and deacons of my local Elim Church so I can give them helpful information. I am a subscriber to CETF; but the church secretary of my Elim church said he would not have the time to read the magazine. I gave him two Jacob Prasch tapes to listen to also [hoping we could get Jacob to come and minister] and he mislaid them without listening. I sometimes wonder what I am doing there. Now I know about Hillsong’s activities through Philip Powell’s words. I feel very uncomfortable singing repetitively Hillsong’s trite little songs at our church worship times each week. I can download stuff from the CETF site, but found that there is so much material there I am not sure which to use. I wondered if you could advise me. Sadly, they seem to be into Benny Hinn and the rest of that ilk, Alpha Courses and etc. My heart does get very heavy at times over these terrible things, and then I wonder why me ... why am I right?
But I KNOW THAT I KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT.
It just gets me down. Thank you in advance.
JJ, UK
ED:
If the Elim leaders won’t read what you give them then I really don’t know how to advise you.
There is plenty of material around.
I know that CWM has a lot and it may be diffi cult to summarise it.
Some time ago I gave four short talks on some of the issues of concern.
Each talk was about 15 minutes so the articles are not very long (http://www.cwmfellowship.org/ sermons.html).
Try giving just one to your pastor and then tell him that you have more and that I am prepared to communicate further with him on the matter.
The fact that Hillsong is so closely related to the late Frank Houston who homosexually abused young men says a great deal about where Hillsong has come from and where it is heading.
The fact that his initial crime was kept secret for more than 30 years should awaken concern about Hillsong setting up an abuse counselling centre. Hillsong is most worldly in its approach, which is really a kind comment. I think it is far worse than that and things will soon emerge which may bring it down.
Anyway I don’t know how I can advise you more than that. God bless you.
Of course you could always invite your pastor to come to one of our meetings when I am next in the country or to go to hear Jacob Prasch or someone else associated with us.
PP
AUSTRALIAN PRAYER NETWORK
Dear Philip: I undertook to get back to you after our Board met in February regarding your concerns expressed regarding the use of words spoken by Cindy Jacobs on our website. The Board considered your views but as Cindy remains in good standing within the International Prayer Movement of which we are part and in the eyes of the Churches and Pastors to whom she is submitted they are comfortable with placing her words on our website where applicable.
They further indicated that your view of prophecy and ours appear to be different. Whereas you seem to require total accuracy of a word before it can be accepted (as with Old Testament type prophecy) we hold the view that no person knows precisely the heart and mind of Christ and can accurately speak or predict actual events and that therefore all prophetic words must be tested by the hearer (or reader) and that the general thrust of the message more than the preciseness of the words or predictions given is what we give credence to.
This caveat is on our website for all to read.
The understanding of this by our readers is obvious as we have had no other complaints from anyone except yourself in the time we have been displaying such words. Also words on our website are turned over regularly as new words are received (not necessarily from Cindy Jacobs or any other particular person).
They are posted based on our assessment of their general interest to our readers, not because we believe they are 100% accurate nor endorse them.
Thank you for raising your concerns with us and allowing us to review our procedures. This response fulfi ls my commitment to you and completes our correspondence on this issue and we will not engage in further discussion on the subject.
Yours sincerely in Christ,
Brian Pickering prayer@bigpond.net.au
ED: By way of explanation the following is the letter which initiated this correspondence. There were several exchanges with the conclusion published above and sent to me on 16/02/05.
Brian Pickering National Coordinator Australian Prayer Network prayer@bigpond.net.au
05/10/04
Dear Brian:
A minister friend in UK originally from Australia and possibly returning to minister here next year, sent me your latest “prophetic word” by Cindy Jacobs with associated information about your web site etc. I noticed your aim to train “balanced leadership” in the area of Prayer. To encourage Prayer is of course a wonderful thing. If we pray correctly we will live as we should and will preach well. The one thing that the disciples asked our Lord to teach them was “to pray” — not to preach, prophesy or to perform but TO PRAY. He obliged and we have the pattern prayer on record — not to be repeated or prayed as a mantra but to teach us the principles that should govern our passion, pursuit and our prayer. I am surprised and disappointed that having your aim to train “balanced” leaders you should promote Cindy Jacobs who is certainly not balanced and is in fact a proven false teacher and false prophet. YES — she is a false prophet and a proven one at that. She has made so many stupid statements that even a child should see through her veneer.
For example even in the current statement that you or your organisation has circulated she claims that God “dreams” — REALLY!
Then of course she shows her hand as she appeals to her audience to “start dreaming”.
How intelligent people can fall for this nonsense I really don’t know, but for me it is very serious and a part of the end time deception.
As a responsible leader you should seek to rescue people from this deception — not promote it — especially being involved as you claim with a Prayer Ministry. I, like so many within Australia, am concerned about our nation and I pray regularly and encourage our people to pray for our nation.
I do not go along with many of the modern notions including the frequently promoted idea of a great end time revival simply because it is NOT canvassed in scripture — quite the opposite. We are told to expect a “great falling away” (i.e. the apostasy) when as Jesus asked “will the Son of Man fi nd faith on the earth” at the time of His second coming?
I was one of the early ministers associated with the International Intercessor movement established by the late Dennis Clark who was a godly man and a great exponent of Scripture.
Why the Lord took him at only 62 years of age we will not know until we stand before Christ.
The movement started well and while it had balanced leadership and a fi rm hand on the rudder it travelled in the right direction. Sadly now it is largely heading for the rocks and is deceiving so many in its strange and unbiblical emphasis.
I sincerely ask that you consider some of the attachments from our web site, one of which makes direct reference to Cindy Jacobs whom you have quoted.
You may also care to visit our web site and read more. LORD — may “Thy Kingdom come; they WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven .... “
Sincerely and with concern in Christ,
PLP
SUGGESTED ACTION:
We at CWM cannot endorse the notion that the biblical test may not be applied in all circumstances and at all times. The Australian Prayer Network has departed from scripture and effectively made their own rules. I wrote to Brian Pickering along this line and told him that we would do our utmost to alert the Christian public to this departure.
Sadly this has happened almost universally to the Prayer and Intercessors movement.
The one bright light is Ray Borlase of Intercessors for Britain (IFB) UK, who confi rmed to me that he and his colleague Stewart Dool fully endorse our position on Cindy Jacobs.
Ray wrote, “we think she is off the wall”.
The leadership of CWM, CAM and MORIEL have expressed concerns to IFB about their public support, refl ected in donations from their thank offerings, of Ebenezer, an organisation that has compromised the Great Commission by signing an agreement not to introduce the gospel to Jews whom they transport to Israel. IFB share our concerns but still remain open to making future donations to Ebenezer.
CINDY JACOBS?
Our ministry was forced to close down our missions operations in Zimbabwe because of the Mugabe dictatorship that has destroyed that country.
Our ability to help AIDS and HIV orphans there has been closed down.
Our chief medical contact could not even get petrol for his vehicle to look after dying people terminal with AIDSrelated illness due to Mugabe’s rape of that nation.
Our pastor was forced back to Britain by Mugabe’s regime.
This after the false prophetess Cindy Jacobs falsely predicted incredible blessing for Zimbabwe as the garden spot of Africa and did so in the Name of The Lord.
Zimbabwe is the hell of Africa and Cindy Jacobs and her twisted C. Peter Wagner antics and false prophecy are also from hell.
She has a lying spirit and by biblical defi nition is a proven deceiver and an unrepentant false prophetess (Deut. 18:20-22).
The Word of God warns about people like Brian and his ilk who continue to follow proven false prophets in defi ance of the Word of God.
‘The prophets prophecy falsely, and my people love it so - but what will you do in the end’? (
Jeremiah 5:30-31). In Jesus,
Jacob Prasch www.moriel.org
OVERSEAS MAILING:
a dilemma The Poor Third World: Please continue to send the CETF.
Paul says, “unless there comes a falling away fi rst” and we see that it is happening all over the world.
The so called CHURCH hates your magazine, but for us, it’s sweet as honey. Thanking you and praying for you.
RF, Sri Lanka
The Rich West:
Your CETF magazine is a great blessing. I realize that Americans (including me) have not been good about fi nancially supporting your magazine.
May I respectfully make a suggestion?
When I look for a way to send you money, your magazine says, “post a cheque in New Zealand dollars, or make a bank transfer directly to our account”.
Friends, the average American has no idea how to write a cheque in New Zealand dollars.
I would have to physically walk into my bank and ask them for instructions.
And, due to the rise of identity theft, and compromised bank accounts that are plaguing the United States of America, most Americans are hesitant to do any sort of wire transfer.
So, my suggestion is: accept donations online by MasterCard, VISA, American Express, or consider using PayPal or Western Union/BidPay for people who want to pay from their bank cheque account.
Americans are used to paying their bills online, they are accustomed to ordering products and services online.
These methods (online Credit Cards and PayPal) should make it easier for would be donors to send you fi nancial support.
By the way, I certainly appreciate that you do not fl eece the fl ock, like so many of the Money Preachers and Tithe Enforcers. You are not the sort who would “beg for funds to keep our ministry alive”.
You are not the type to make statements like “God spoke to me last night and said that 1000 people are to make a $1000 pledge”. You would not be the kind that preaches, “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law”, and then tell the same congregants, “You are cursed according to Malachi chapter 3 if you do not pay 10% of your income to this [already rich] institution”.
Asking for money to bear the expense of producing, printing, and mailing CETF is a legitimate request.
Allowing Americans to pay online with their credit card or PayPal account should generate more income for these expenses. Thanks and God Bless You.
FG, USA
ED:
An Australian recipient orders additional copies and posts some to Sri Lanka. CWM still incurs printing costs but saves on postage. This is something that other readers may consider. We have been reluctant to push credit card donations and have not so far established on-line-payments on account of the abuse by some others.
What do other readers think? We certainly need donations as both UK and NZ could not mail CETF 32 by the time CETF 33 was ready to print due to a lack of funds.
By the way donations can be received by bankcard, visa or mastercard at our Australian offi ce by way of fax: +61 (0)3 5962 2615.
Please specify where and what your donation is for.
BIBLE VERSIONS
The editor of CETF has again supported the use of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible
“as possibly being the best translation available and a very good Bible from which to establish your doctrine” (Letters, March 2005, p18).
The original KJV of 1611 came complete with the Apocrypha (see http://wwwcatholicapologetics. net/bookes_called.htm).
It is time for the
Ed. to give his defence for the KJV’s Apocrypha as “very good ... to establish your doctrine.” If he is to be consistent with his KJV support, he needs to accept the Apocrypha and its doctrine of purgatory (a place of temporal punishment in the intermediate state after death), based on the KJV of 1611 in 2 Maccabees 12:39-45.
Spencer Gear
Bundaberg, Qld
ED: I agree with my good friend Spencer Gear that the original KJV (AD 1611), as it is generally referred to in the USA or the AV, as it was generally known in UK, did include the Apocrypha. However as I pointed out in the editorial response to which Spencer refers, there is a much later version that is likewise called the KJV or AV. As verifi cation of this I quote the following: “One little-known fact, is that for the past 200 years, all King James Bibles published in America are actually the 1769 Baskerville spelling and wording revision of the 1611. The original “1611” preface is deceivingly included by the publishers, and no mention of the fact that it is really the 1769 version is to be found, because that might hurt sales. The only way to obtain a true, unaltered, 1611 version is to either purchase an original pre- 1769 printing of the King James Bible, or a less costly facsimile reproduction of the original 1611 King James Bible”.1 The same source points out that the Apocryphal books were officially removed in 1885. In today’s parlance a general reference to the KJV or AV does not include any reference to the Apocrypha, nor for that matter to the original 1611 edition. I submit that Spencer’s challenge does not apply. He knows that I do not support the Apocryphal books, which are accepted by the Roman Catholic Church, not by Protestants. I was careful in my choice of language and I stand by what I wrote although I recognise there is difference of opinion.
Neither I nor CWM are King James Only in our position. Refer CETF 32.
—PP
Further correspondence
HERE... on this subject.
*1 English Bible History Article & Timeline ©2002: John L. Jeffcoat III. “WWW. GREATSITE.COM”.
*2 All this KJV discussion relates only to the english language versions.
- WebMaster
YANCEY NOT SDA
Dear Philip, In your article on ‘
Biblical Grace’ in your December 2004 CETF you made reference to Philip Yancey a Seventh-day Adventist. Could you direct me to a good website link that would give details of and confi rm this SDA connection of Mr Yancey.
Your co-contender, Cecil Andrews, Ireland
Take Heed Ministries: www.takeheed.net
APOLOGY: After making enquiries I ascertained that Philip Yancey is not and never was a Seventh Day Adventist. I unconditionally apologise to all concerned — PP.
CHURCH & POLITICS:
Philip, I really enjoyed the December 2004 CETF but the first page contained a comment to which I took exception.
You say [paraphrased] that when the church becomes political it ceases to be prophetic.
Surely the opposite is the case. When the church fails to involve itself in the political arena it ceases to be prophetic and therefore relevant to a lost world. In New Zealand I’ve stood for parliament twice, on behalf of a Christian party, precisely because I wanted to inject the prophetic into the secular arena.
Sadly, few Christians recognise the prophetic role the church should be playing in the community. God sent His prophets to warn Israel and Judah that its failure to follow His commands would lead to further social distress and eventual judgement. The prophet also sets out to explain what needs to be done to put things right. A call to repentance was always an important element in the prophet’s appeal. Direct appeals to the ruling ecclesiastical and political elite were common.
The Church has largely lost all relevance in a fallen world, because it refuses to grasp the important prophetic role the church should be playing in a world dominated by a secular humanist world view.
Francis Schaeffer majored on this issue, laying the fault for the wholesale dumping of a Christian world view at the feet of the church. He accused evangelicals of seeing things in “bits and pieces” instead of wholes.
Sadly, your comment seemed to bear witness to the truth of Schaeffer’s reprimand. Regards,
Chris Salt, NZ
ED: I guess Chris it’s a matter of the spin you put on words. I believe the Church should be relevant and speak into all aspects of life, including the political. I used the word in the sense of “being political” i.e. doing the political thing for advantage or manipulation or personal gain etc.
My OXFORD DICTIONARY states the following as Item No 4 under the word POLITICAL
— 4) relating to or affecting interests of status or authority in an organisation rather than matters of principle (a political decision).
It was in this sense that I made the comment. The big question is whether the prophetic role of the Church is to speak from outside and thus into the political arena, rather than from within.
I am strongly inclined to the view that when the Church forms a political party or, by a united effort as a Church, seeks to shape politics the inevitable consequence is compromise and/or corruption. If individual Christians feel called to a political career in a governmental sense then so long as he or she exercises great care not to become absorbed by the worldly system of things —
“do not love the world neither the things that in the world”(
1 John 2:15)
— he/she may be able to infl uence the affairs of state for good. That has happened on rare occasions throughout history, but it seems that whenever the Church per se becomes political something goes wrong e.g. Destiny in New Zealand and Family First in Australia. Both have been held up to ridicule for hypocrisy mainly because of the high moral ground they have tried to take when in fact there are skeletons in the cupboard. In the case of Family First there was the additional hypocrisy of trying to hide their Christian (AoG) connections. In my opinion there are two dangers that relate to:
1) Transparency; and
2) Expediency. Here in Australia the new Family First have shown that they adopt the same method of manipulation that all political parties adopt in order to secure votes.
I doubt that you can be popularist and prophetic at the same time and popularity is part and parcel of the political method and system. Why don’t you develop your ideas into a full article and I will try to get someone to write from the opposite perspective and will publish the two articles side by side in a future CETF? If no one else will volunteer I will have a go myself. I am sure that such an exercise will help all of us clarify our thinking on what is an important issue of our time — PP
POLICY: We value and encourage your communications on any matter and especially on subjects raised in our publications. However due to the large amount of correspondence that we receive Philip Powell can not undertake to answer personal correspondence.
WE are receiving so many letters and emails that it is impractical to publish them all.
CWM issues a regular electronic Mailer, which among other things seeks to warn Christians about false doctrine and abusive practices within the Christian community.
Good advice resulted from our publishing the story.
You can join the CWM Mailer at http://www. christian-witness.org/join.html for future despatches.
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Monday, October 09, 2006
