Phillip,

I have been most encouraged by your clear dividing line between humanistic philosophies, “man’s thinking”, and “God’s thinking” as revealed in the Holy Scripture, personified in Jesus Christ and quickened to us by the Holy Spirit. This has helped me immensely to separate the “wheat” from the “tares” in my own mind and thought processes as God rebuilds and cleanses my own heart.

It’s clear to me that much of my own personal struggles have come from pastors, bible teachers, so-called “christian” books that have admired and promoted the ways of the world as successful and desirable, and thus mix these thoughts with the pure, holy and most precious Word of God.

The effect of your clear teaching is that the Bible has become much more precious to me….while the thinking of this world has become much more worthless in my eyes. Funny how, that as you see the truth, you agree with the word that these lies and tares are “good for nothing”…worthless…a waste of time.

Lord, forgive us for treating the tares as valuable and help us cling to the pure gold of your Word.

By Mark Eather on Oct 17, 2008

Wayne,
Over 35 years ago Eternity Magazine used a similar phrase, “third force”, to describe the relatively new Charismatic movement & its forebears of the Holiness & Pentecostal movements. It seems to have been used regularly since in various theological articles and books.
..
Re the issue of gaining political advantage:

I am, sadly, not surprised to hear of Andrew Evans embracing political expedience above biblical principle. It is a warning to us all … and should cause Australian Christians to reconsider whether voting for Family First political party [which this Evans founded] is a wise use of their vote at federal, state, and local government elections … so far, their elected members have only followed Liberal Party approaches to issues with little straying from that ‘fold’. So much for the promises to so many AoG church voters [where they did most of their ‘viral marketing’], that they would bring a uniquely Christian view to politics .
..
In the mid-1980s Hillsong Hou$ton visited some churches in the United Kingdom [on one of his early preaching circuit tours] and returned to his 200-member church [then known as Hills Christian Life Centre] and announced excitedly that he’d discovered “our church can get government money to finance some of our ministries … this is huge in the UK”, while I was involved there. He did indeed achieve that, yet in recent years the NSW State Parliament have questioned the use of those funds. [And it is right that those who give out money require detailed accountability from those to whom it is given, to ensure wise stewardship of those funds.] ‘No strings attached’ funding is a fool’s dream, and agencies and churches who receive ANY money must always have complete disclosure to all the givers and lenders.
..
As a result of the above I must ask : Are large, church-run community & welfare agencies a wise investment of Christians’ energies and time?
I don’t know.
They produce a bureacracy often, that is not passionate about the Lord Jesus Christ and his ongoing ministry in the world today, and although they do good works often it is without Christ. [I wrote some comments on this in the CWM blog on “The Downgrade” controversy section 3, in late April - early May this year re the UnitingCare scenario in Brisbane.]
..
A few churches co-operating can start small organisations & together fill a particular area of need in their community. If 24 churches co-operate in groups of 3 or 4 churches then 6 to 8 diverse areas of need can be ministered to, on a local level by 6 to 8 small organisations. Fund-raising can be self-generated in the locality, without many extra layers of strings attached. Keep it small & simple, is my preference. And we recognise that these suggestions are in essence political action, without becoming “party political”. Small Christian community organisations can retain Christ-centred practices and exemplify biblical ethics. Larger community organisations lose their way IMO.
Thus churches can be a vital force in their communities without losing their focus on Christ’s good news.

By Paul, a small potato on Oct 17, 2008

Thank you for the information you provide here Paul. In the context of your comments you may be interested in the following information about a “community service” being offered at a local community church which proudly boasts that they are NOT promoting biblical christianity.

The following is a snippet from the website of such an absurd “ministry” from a church which I strongly believe is falsely promoting itself as christian.

“It is not a church service, but many people
sense God’s presence when they come for
ministry. We are non-denominational and are not
trying to teach, change anybody’s doctrines, enlist them in any church or movement, or promote any unusual, controversial doctrines. We just share the love of Jesus Christ.

How can they share the love of Jesus Christ without sharing the truth of who the REAL Jesus Christ is as revealed to us in the Bible?

I strongly believe local church ministries should be simple, but strongly promoting biblical doctrines, teachings and values.
Their highest motivation should be to lead people to salvation through faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

The Bible teaches that spiritual gifts follow the preaching of the Word of God as a means of confirming that Word.

False ministries, such as this one, are man-centred with “magical” manifestations being represented as means of confirming the “mystical status” of the person deemed responsible for such manifestations in the spiritual realm. This is all ‘new age’ rather than being in any way christian.

May I recommend “The Biblical Testing of Teachings and Manifestations” by Aeron Morgan regarding issues such as these.

This church I refer to above, is pastored, incidentally, by the same person who proudly informed me that he was “NOT INTERESTED IN BIBLE DOCTRINE OR TEACHING - I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN MY ANOINTING” is promoting some experience based on touchy feely sentiments about SOMEBODY named Jesus.

The New Testament, I hasten to add, is full of warnings about false christs being everywhere in the last days and that God Himself will send delusion to those who do not love the Truth.

The Jesus of the Bible refers to Himself as The Way, The Truth and The Light and only He is able to present us to the Father - He is certainly NOT just any old person calling himself Jesus Christ.

When we depart from Bible teaching to follow the “teachings of anointed men” (ultimately false christs) rather than Godly ambassadors of the Biblical Jesus, we set ourselves up for plummeting spiritual standards and a proliferation of ‘new age’ religious spirits among the scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive.

The bible teaches in 2 Timothy 3:16 that “ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness.”
2 Timothy 2:15, states “STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, A WORKMAN THAT NEEDETH NOT BE ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH” (KJV).
1 Thessalonians 5:21 states “Prove (JUDGE) ALL things: hold fast to that which is good.”

We must stand firm on the Word of God alone at this very significant point in church and world history, if we are to retain the very salvation which the Biblical Jesus Christ has won for us at Calvary.

By Wayne Capell on Oct 18, 2008

The term “Godly ambassadors of the Biblical Jesus” used in my comment above simply refers to those who faithfully preach and teach the Word of God.

These people CARE about Bible doctrine and do NOT in any way present themselves as having special “anointings” which somehow supersedes dependency on the Word of God as the Sole authority on matters of faith and morals.

By Wayne Capell on Oct 18, 2008

Yes Wayne, I agree.
Christ’s followers need to band together to learn the word of God, to encourage and support one another, and to give glory to our risen and enthroned Lord Jesus.
And we need to disperse from these gatherings to share the gospel in words, in works of compassion, in wonders [through the Sovereign Divine display of supernatural gifts], and most importantly through the mirror of our daily lives. A robust faith in him who strengthens us enables the ‘remnant’ to engage, not avoid, the alienated world in which we live. We have treasure in earthen vessels containing eternal life, healing, restoration, reconciliation and friendship with the triune God. This is available to share with others.
What strange people are they who want to water it down and dilute this treasure from heaven!

By Paul, a small potato on Oct 18, 2008

In Christianity, the truth of the Torah is suppressed and hidden, either deliberately (by satan’s messengers in the ‘church’) or out of ignorance. But thank and praise Yah, that He and only He is restoring all things!

At the Messianic fellowship I was part of for over 8 years, YHWH taught me a lot. I was also blessed at that time by teachers like Jacob Prasch (Moriel), Arnold Fruchtenbaum (Ariel) and John Young (Sulam Ya’aqov Messianic Fellowship). My faith in Yeshua grew and I learned about how important that the true Shabbat, the Feasts of YHWH and the rest of the Torah were also for ‘Christians’, not just the Jews.

Having spent many years desiring Him, like Jacob, I wrestle with God on personal issues as we all do, yet He has remained faithful and continued to lead me.

About a year ago, my faith went to another level, when I discovered that the ‘church’ (that is, the true, remnant ‘church’) on earth are the descendants of the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who, and by the blood of Yeshua, are grafted into the House of Jacob.

The House of Jacob was split into Israel and Judah. As you may know the history of these two of God’s people, Israel was exiled and later assimilated as ‘gentiles’ into the world. Yeshua said he came only for these “lost sheep of the House of Israel”, and he spoke to the Jews (Judah who was back in the Land) about ‘another flock’ (referring to Israel or what Christians call ‘gentiles’) that He had.

As it says in the article above, God’s plan has always been for His people, the WHOLE House of Israel/Jacob to be obedient to His commands, but to also TRUST him with faith from the heart, such as Abraham who was credited as being righteous because of his simple faith in Yahweh.

As Eliyahu (Elijah) was to come before the Messiah, and who did in John the Baptist, we are told again the the spirit of Eliyahu will come before Messiah returns to restore all things! The ‘all things’ being the lost truths of the Torah and B’rit Chadasha (New Testament), that mother Rome had sabotaged and kidnapped 1700 years ago.

The original covenant, renewed (Jer. 31) and re-established by Yeshua, in His blood shed at Golgotha, was kept by his talmidim (disciples) and later the believers who came to accept that Yeshua was indeed the promised One of Isaiah 53 - the suffering servant!

Sadly, when the goyim (gentiles/heathens) came to the faith, as it spread out and away from Jerusalem, they also brought in their baggage of pagan worship. This evolved into what we call the Roman Catholic church. This leaven doesn’t just lie there, but her offspring, (thanks to so called church ‘fathers’ like Luther) being the protestant and later the evangelicals, never full disconnected from Rome’s poisonous and heretical doctrines and ideologies which are alive and well today.

Today, Christendom has between 3000 to 5000 denominations, because of the great apostasy which Rabbi Sha’ul (Paul) warned about in his letters. This great apostasy isn’t just about looney televangelists, or ecumenism with Rome, but something even closer to home.

Even so-called ’sound’ churches and ministries who stand for supposed ‘truth’, still stand in great error, as they remain clothed in replacementism. We often hear them sprouting on about how ‘Jesus’ did away with the ‘law’ or complete misunderstandings of the Hebraic texts of the scriptures.

By Lee Mullen on Oct 19, 2008

The “return to Hebrew roots” movement sounds very similar to a movement the apostle Paul warned about in his letter to the Galatian Christians.
In substance it teaches that the New Covenant is not enough, and certain Hebrew practices must be added, and ‘R2HRoots’movement brands those of us who follow Christ without these additions as “apostate”.

The New Covenant is greater and better than all previous divine covenants with humans, and it supersedes them by absorbing them in Jesus the Christ-Messiah. Thus it cancels the previous covenants by not only fulfilling them but by also completing them in the Person of Jesus, the eternal Son of God.

The faithful remnant are those who have truly believed God and followed him through the ages - Paul calls them “true Israel”. Prior to Christ’s death they were found within the nation Israel: since then they are being found in every nation, and no longer must be circumcised to enter this status. ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.’ Indeed the church that Jesus is building has superseded the national Israel in God’s grand plan of all the ages of time. [And we honour those faithful people who believed while looking forward to Christ’s first coming.]

What absolutely amazing grace the triune God have bestowed on all who believe!

By Paul, a small potato on Oct 20, 2008

Well said Paul.

That is more than enough to dispense with that particular diversion.

By Wayne Capell on Oct 20, 2008

Paul, I wonder if you could elaborate on your comment, “Indeed the church that Jesus is building has superceded the national Israel in God’s grand plan of all the ages of time?”

This sounds like ‘replacement theology’, but it may not be what you had in mind.

By Kerry Stevenson on Oct 22, 2008

Kerry, I understand from Romans ch11 that God pictures his people as an olive tree. With the work of Messiah completed and the New Covenant inaugurated, 2 things have occurred to the tree:
1] Some branches have been broken off - i.e. Israel the national entity;
2] New, wild branches have been grafted in and now share in the nourishing sap - i.e. Gentiles who have repented and believed in the Lord Jesus, the Anointed.

The faithful remnant at that time in national Israel who were converted to Christ were not broken off from the olive tree. However, although many were converted as recorded in the gospels and in the Acts of the Apostles, Jesus clearly said to the non-believing Jews that they had no place in his Kingdom that he had inaugurated and would be judged.
Since then the only way to spiritual favour and life with the Almighty God is through Jesus Christ, and only through him.

National Israel today is in the same precarious state spiritually, as every nation on Earth is. It is a secular country that contains many religious relics and sites. It heavily promotes (& reaps financial wealth from)”holy land” religious tours for 3 major religions - and nonChristian organisations in Israel receive many donations from misinformed, silly Christians who’ve been taught that there are two ‘people of God’ and two plans of God for spiritual salvation (which generally rests on the faulty theology of Dispensationalism). In the USA there are huge campaigns among evangelical Christians to raise funds for such organisations - not all are sucked in by the marketing, though.

I am not antisemitic, and I pray for national repentance of all the people residing in Israel [as I do for Australia, my homeland], and for them to have saving faith in Christ alone - for he is the ONLY hope for humans. Those who believe will then be grafted into the olive tree, and those who don’t will remain dispossessed from the divine inheritance they could have enjoyed in Christ.

And another thing to ponder is that Jesus himself is the fulfilment and the completion of all the Father had destined Israel to be.

I am not implying that Israel, Australia, China, USA, etc do not receive great blessings through Divine Providence, for his mercy is bountiful to all - including in times of droughts, floods, etc. My comments are in the specific focus of who “the people of God” actually are.

Hope that clarifies what I wrote.

By Paul, a small potato on Oct 22, 2008

Something to consider re: the ‘third arm of Christianity’ comments. It seems to me that there has only ever been one arm or stream of true faith. Way back there was Cain and Abel. Both were spiritually inclined but only Abel was pleasing to the Almighty. Then of course there was Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the prophets, etc. Interestingly, the tower of Babel was man’s attempt at religion, in rebellion against God, to build a monument to men, settle down, and make a name for themselves. These two streams have continued through history till today. God has continually called men out of dead religion to true faith. Sadly those who are called out, after a generation or so, settle down, build monuments, and seek to make names for themselves. Dead religiosity, I believe, can be often recognized by ‘the three Ts’ : temples, tithes and titles.

Glenn

By Glenn on Oct 23, 2008

I feel I must be careful here as the Remnant philosophy can easily open up a wide range of issues and points of view, BUT responding to Paul’s comments above [viz.”Christ’s followers need to band together to learn the word of God, to encourage and support one another, and to give glory to our risen and enthroned Lord Jesus”] I totally agree!
I am a part of a very small remnant group of believers and, if this can encourage any of you, being small and in trusting each other, we can receive from God - in the Name of Jesus - and by His Spirit - in ways that are virtually impossible in the larger group context. Last Friday for example, we had a strong anointing (not like Todd or Benny’s!) and God’s spirit flowed. Words of knowledge, a blessing from the Word of God, intercessory prayer, a spiritual song (Psalm 23) no music, and a wonderful sense, and I mean in intensity, of the presence of our Blessed Lord. In fact a weakness in the knees and a lightness in our spirits. This I believe can only happen in a small, loving, like-minded group. As any group progresses beyond such smallness (we are beginning to think) a leavening can take place. It might not, though more likely it will. We then take what we have received to others, as the Lord desires. Rather like the original New Testament church. What do you think?

By Abraham on Oct 27, 2008

Glenn : yes, I completely agree with you about distinguishing between true Christianity and dead religiosity. And we are not surprised by the presence of both, for Jesus taught us a parable about the wheat and the tares.
The language of ’streams’ though, above, seems to be used differently by the respective contributors, here. So, if we picture “the stream of true faith” (as distinct from religiosity or ‘churchianity’), instead, as a mighty river flowing onward … until it reaches an island in the middle of its path, and one side of the river flows around one side of the island & the rest flows around the other side. Both arms comprise the river, and neither is itself the whole river. This progress of the river can be repeated many times resulting in many arms of the river, and some arms merging [’uniting’], and some arms being eventually made into billabongs. Picture in your mind the delta of the River Nile or the delta of the Amazon River.

The Body of Christ is like this in its history. IMO there are more arms in it than the 3 mentioned above - significant ones would include Orthodox, Catholic, Reformed, Evangelical, Restoration, Holiness, Pentecostal - which all have true believers within them, as well as “tares”. There are many diverse ‘currents’ in the water of each ‘arm of the river’ also, and they themselves are not that arm - but they are a part of the river system from which they have their identity.

Some arms [and even some individual fellowships] have become billabongs - completely cut off from the river of life. Examples would include SOME Quaker groups [who have forsaken the Christ-centredness and Biblical reflection of their founders]; and Catholic groups [who have welcomed Buddhistic beliefs and practices]; and Pentecostal-charismatic groups [who have embraced greediness and easy-believism]. We cannot stereotype all in these movements, though, in this way.
Are these ‘billabongs’ part of the river flowing from the throne of heaven ?….. [Revelation 22] is the question. My only answer is “They once were”, and I recognise that others may not agree with this.

Yes, there is only one river of true followers of Christ Jesus. Thank you for your excellent post.

By Paul, a small potato on Oct 29, 2008

Abraham : There is something very special about the quality of fellowship among brothers and sisters in Christ in a small group. There people can really know one another and be known, as we together seek to walk in the way of Christ.
Group dynamics change as groups grow larger, and apparently the optimal size for small groups is 6-12 people with the recommendation that when a group is regularly about 16 people then two groups of 8 should form, instead. However structure is not the key. I’ve been in small fellowships that ‘fizzled’ despite great teaching and intentions, because the dynamics weren’t understood [& group dynamics will happen whether we understand them or not]. I’d rather be in a group that ’sparkles’ spiritually and care for each other genuinely.
Lyle Schaller [a US church health consultant in ‘mainstream’ churches] wrote that its easy to make water flow downhill because that’s the natural thing for its movement …. & likewise its natural to have small, family-like churches …. and easier to love one another and disciple one another in that environment… and it doesn’t cost much [per person]. It is harder to make water flow up-hill but it IS possible, and requires pipes and fittings and pumps to be achieved …. & likewise you can grow large churches that can be maintained … but it’s harder to create structures that facilitate genuine care and expression and every-member ministry. And it takes a lot of effort & is more costly financially per person, to maintain the size, let alone to grow even larger. And public ministry gets done by fewer and fewer gifted people, as a proportion of the whole church or fellowship - someone identified this phenomenon as ‘gifted people being frozen into the church’s pews in favour of a few star-performers’. And more money is needed to be spent on ministry-support [e.g.hall rental, advertising, large honorariums, administrative staff, etc] proportionately than on direct ministry [salaries of various ministers]. It highlights the skewiff values of the bigger-is-better trend. IMO small & simple is better structurally, and meeting together can happen anywhere at any time.
Repentant hearts in humble people will be more sensitive to the Spirit moving among each other, than in the excitement of ‘going to’ a large gathering of church to hear what Pastor Big-Potato has to preach to us today with all the accoutrements.
God bless you, friend.

By Paul, a small potato on Oct 29, 2008

Paul, with regard to your comment:

The Body of Christ is like this in its history. IMO there are more arms in it than the 3 mentioned above - significant ones would include Orthodox, Catholic, Reformed, Evangelical, Restoration, Holiness, Pentecostal - which all have true believers within them, as well as “tares”. There are many diverse ‘currents’ in the water of each ‘arm of the river’ also, and they themselves are not that arm - but they are a part of the river system from which they have their identity.

Please tell me how you define christianity so that this is possible?

I agree with Glenn and certainly believe that there is ONLY one type of genuine christian and that is the biblical christian. Any other type of christian can only be referred to as a pseudo or deluded christian.

The Biblical christian has a genuine salvation or “born-again” experience based on their response to the preaching and teaching of the Word of God. This is the basic starting point. They then progress in the realization that only submission to the teachings of scripture will enable them to grow spiritually and to live a life pleasing to the true God - the God of the Bible.

Despite very limited scope for some individual differences scriptural teachings are generally obvious to the truly spiritual individual who is genuinely trying to please God.
Consequently it is impossible for a true believer to continue to be associated with an organisation overtly teaching unbiblical and even anti-biblical doctrine.

The bible teaches in 2 Timothy 3:16 that “ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness.”
2 Timothy 2:15, states “STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, A WORKMAN THAT NEEDETH NOT BE ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH” (KJV).
1 Thessalonians 5:21 states “Prove (JUDGE) ALL things: hold fast to that which is good.”
This literally means to JUDGE ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF GOD.
The church would be much healthier, spiritually, if such scriptural standards were applied consistently.
The bible teaches that we will give an account of ourselves on the Judgement Day.
There will be no one to speak for us, we will face God alone and be responsible for ourselves.
The responsibility to judge ALL things is therefore placed on ALL truly born again, bible believing Christians who are empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so. This is the sole means by which we are able to live a life pleasing to God rather than a futile life in opposition to the will of God, however successful it may appear to be in a worldly sense.
Consistent with bible prophecy about “false christs” in the last days we now have “anointed ones” running around claiming that bible believing Christians will be hurt by God if they dare to question them. They also claim to have special revelation which is not to be subjected to the testing of scripture in spite of or perhaps because of the teaching of scripture to the contrary confirming they are wrong or false.

Paul,

the following examples make it impossible for me to accept much of the basic premise of your comment that true believers are involved in all manner of religious organisations merely because they choose to refer to themselves as christian.

Pope Boniface VIII declared in his “Unam Sanctum Ecclesiam” of 1302 that:
“it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
In 1870 Pope Pius IX proclaimed “Papal Infallibility” in all matters of faith and morals.
This is the basis of multitudes of unscriptural and anti-scriptural teachings and practices which biblical Christians find abhorrent.
The Roman Catholic Church NEVER changes. They say that about themselves.
This is ignored by people who find that biblical teaching prevents them from engaging in the popular ecumenical and religious activities of the day.
When compared with the clear teaching of scripture such ecumenical activity is Biblical Apostasy. The bible cannot be distorted to support both the claims of Jesus Christ and the claims of popery.
This most basic affront to biblical Christianity, the Roman Catholic teaching of “Unam Sanctum Ecclesiam” directly contradicts the words of Jesus in John 14:6:
“I AM the Way the Truth and the Light, NO man cometh unto the Father BUT by me.”
The National President of the AoG in Australia, Brian Houston, however, has stated,
“We pray that this papacy, LIKE THOSE BEFORE IT, is marked by a commitment to seeing the Christian message continue to go forward and people changed by the power and truth of the gospel.”
When has the Roman Catholic church ever proclaimed the Christian message as clearly defined by Bible teachings?
Paul says in Galatians 1 verse 8 …..”though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”
I have heard and read of numerous examples of the AoG Executive pontificating on the basis of their “anointing” alone without reference to the teaching of scripture at all. I have been told by a senior AoG Pastor that he knew better than the Bible because of his experiences in the ministry when I questioned why he was ignoring the clear teaching of scripture in his teaching and practice.
Paul states in Galatians 1 verses 10, 11 and 12 …..”do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
Joel Osteen, pastor of the largest charismatic church in the USA believes Mormons are fellow Christians:
Osteen states that “Mitt Romney, (a mormon) has said that he believes in Christ as his saviour and that is what I believe”. Osteen admitted that he does not know much about Mormonism but was prepared to endorse Mormonism in an interview on Fox News before Christmas. When asked if a Mormon was a true Christian Osteen said, “in my mind they are. I am not one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are. Mitt Romney seems like a man of character and integrity to me. When he says that Christ is his saviour that is a common bond and although I don’t agree with everything I just try to let God be the judge.”
The Mormon Jesus is clearly a false Jesus.
Bill Hybels, another mega church leader has had Moslems preach in his pulpit and has claimed that Allah is the same God as the Christians and people of other faiths serve.
Other groups influenced by “anointed ones” such as Peter Wagner are teaching about “territorial spirits.” They say that individuals do not even need to hear the Gospel at all to be saved if the territorial spirits are cast out. They therefore claim that we have “born again hindus, moslems and any other bizarre combination you can think of being saved without leaving their religious and social culture and without even hearing the Word of God at all.”
Peter Wagner and his dangerous anti-reformation doctrines are another serious menace to biblical christianity. The Bible clearly warns of the dangers of false teaching and practices which are becoming increasingly obvious in church circles around the world.
We should ALWAYS remember also that it was “the anointed” religious leaders of HIS day who had Jesus Christ crucified. The political leader “could find no fault with Him” but the religious leaders found Him to be a threat to them and their high office and demanded His execution at any cost.
The Bible repeatedly warns us about the proliferation of false Christs in the last days. Paul often warns about those who would pervert the Gospel of Christ. In 2 Thessalonians 2 verses 11 and 12 Paul states ….”for this cause God shall send strong DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
Should we “Prove (JUDGE) ALL things: hold fast to that which is good” in accordance with the scriptures or should we follow the Gnostic teachings of the “anointed ones?”
The “horror” stories go on and on and on. I could provide many more examples for you but I have demonstrated the absolute necessity for all Bible believing, born again Christians to faithfully JUDGE ALL things by the Word of God and to hold fast only to that which is good SCRIPTURALLY and to reject emphatically ALL that is bad, false or contrary to the revealed Word of God. This means coming out from among the apostate as well as those groups that were false from the outset.
The bible clearly teaches that our eternal destiny depends on our willingness and ability to remain faithful to the Word of God and that God Himself will send delusion to those who “love not the truth.” This delusion can only be avoided by faithful commitment to the Word of God and the determined rejection of all that is false.
In 2 Thessalonians 2 verse 15 Paul advises the brethren in Christ to ….”stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our epistle.”
In spite of the warnings that even the very elect will be deceived in these last days, my wife and I intend, by the grace of God, to remain faithful to Biblical Christianity for as long as possible.
The Apostle Paul gave the instruction in Galatians 1 verse 9 …..”if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received let him be accursed.” This is the biblical way to deal with these people who are perverting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am unable to accept your statement about true believers remaining within false and apostate organisations and I would urge you to reevaluate what christianity actually is and what aspects of it are actually non-negotiable.

By Wayne Capell on Oct 31, 2008

Wayne,
Thanks for your input on that, it allows me to try and clarify what appears to have caused confusion:
1] Describing the flow of church history in this metaphorical way gave an overview of what HAS actually occurred in the past. Originally there were no denominations, nor quasi-denominational “movements”, & they certainly ARE NOT prescribed for Christ’s disciples’ living. That doesn’t mean that there are not true believers in them, nor does it mean they are not bringing people to saving faith in Christ.
2] Doctrine does matter. I have been very clear on this over my last 12 months of contributing on various CWM blogs - and the Lord still works on in God-fearing people all over the world, in many diverse situations, drawing the elect to saving faith in Christ alone. [Ralph Stiles was an A/G pastor in Newcastle,NSW, in early 1970s, who was saved in a JW environment - that still astounds me.] It is too easy & unwise to stereotype people who are different from us. In 4/08 I commented on the “AoG Doctrinal Death” blog that people in churches where they are not being fed good, biblical teaching should go elsewhere and find a church or fellowship where they can receive this.
3] You’ve posted the anti-Roman Catholic information in the 31/10 comment above, quite a few times before on CWM blogs in the past 6 or 7 months. [It seems to be ‘a wheelbarrow’ you are pushing, yet it is relevant to this blog’s theme.]
I have spoken first-hand with a man who was led to saving faith in Christ in a Greek Orthodox church by the priest’s preaching. I have spoken first-hand with a woman who, in a ‘confessional box’ in a Catholic church, was halted by the priest who had heard her confessions many times and who proceeded to lead her to repentance and saving faith in Christ’s once-and-for-all atoning death. These events occurred over 20 years ago & the fruit remains.
4] I am not denominational … yet have come across others in my past 45 years of following Jesus who are ‘nondenominational’ almost in the sense of being a denomination themselves. And, some of these ’separated’ brothers & sisters use the same “false and apostate organisations” language in describing ALL people in ALL denominations, even going so far as calling the whole edifice of denominationalism as “the great harlot”.

5] Finally, as this blog is run by a Christian ministry that is ‘unashamedly’ Pentecostal, I make these remarks: I am not Pentecostal myself, I do not accept the teaching that speaking in unknown tongues is THE NECESSARY initial evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit [even though I do speak in unknown tongues myself !].
I do not accept premillennial thinking or its sub-branch of Dispensationalism, as a fair view and understanding of the whole counsel of God that is enscripted for us in regards to the current Eschaton i.e.the last days [even though it has had a popular resurgence since the 1840s], and regard the ‘realised eschatology’ that some call amillennial, as a fairer more accurate interpretation of Scripture.
Do I separate myself from those who don’t agree with these points? No way!!!
It’s good to talk, brother, and I hope this adds clarity to the above. May the LORD continue blessing you, Wayne.

By Paul, a small potato on Oct 31, 2008

A postscript may be needed:
a biblical Christian [’born-again’, ‘true believer’] recognises these core truths, and walks in their realities:-

1] God has created all things in the way it fulfils his good purpose. The triune Godhead are the ultimate authority, there is none higher, ever.

2] The eternal Son became incarnate and lived on Earth as the incarnate (embodied) Word of God. Jesus Christ is the LORD above all Lords. His followers must willingly submit to his Lordship in their daily living as well as in mental assent.

3] In his substitutionary, atoning and cruel death he provided salvation to ALL who trust in his sacrificial work as fulfilling the requirements of divine justice. As a result they are justified, by faith.

4] The 66 books of the Bible are the enscripted Word of God. Their authority is derived from the eternal Godhead. Because God has spoken … we must listen and change in accord with what he has said. Every believer needs to meditate on God’s word & become familiar with it. [The New Testament has a higher priority for Christians as it reveals the Lord Jesus, the promised Messiah, and contains his commands through his & his apostles’ teachings.]

5] Our faith must be put into practice - in holy living and works of service, informed by the written word of God.

It is on these that my ‘basic premise’ stands.

Kind regards to all who read this.

By Paul, a small potato on Oct 31, 2008

Thank you Paul.

I do appreciate your willingness to share your position and your openness regarding what you do believe. The Bible is truly ALL that genuine believers and followers of the one TRUE GOD, the GOD of the Bible, have to rely on.

I have continually hammered these points because people who have grown up within organisations referring to themselves as ‘christian’ and which are now obviously apostate, and therefore [by biblical teaching standards] leading people to HELL, are referring to such absurdities as “born again” Roman Catholics remaining within the Roman Catholic organisation.

I have also referred to many other such instances regarding other false religions and practices. This is primarily because this DELUSION will take people, who seem to think they are “saved,” simply because of conformity to the teachings of the “anointed” ones within their organisation to hell.

When people come into the Light of the Truth of the Word of God the very first thing they want to do is to flee from ALL that is false or contrary to the Word and to hold fast to ALL that is true.

Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you - 2nd Corinthians 6: 17 (NKJV).

Ultimately the biblical mandate is clear – ‘Come out from among them’ – the present danger is stated, – ‘Do not touch what is unclean’ – the method of escape is explained – ‘And be separate’ – and the end result is promised –’I (the Lord) will receive you’.

It is as absurd to suggest that leaders within unscriptural and anti-biblical organisations can lead people to a saving faith in the God of the Bible as it is to suggest that people may remain in any other sin or carnal preoccupation once they choose to call themselves “christian.”

By Wayne Capell on Oct 31, 2008

PS.

I strongly believe that it is reasonable to assume that one must know the GOD of the BIBLE i.e. the Biblical Jesus in order to be able to lead someone to a saving faith in the Biblical Jesus.

How anyone can presume to lead someone to a saving faith in Christ when they work for an organisation which denies the authority of the scriptures at all and subordinates it to the fanciful teachings of men is absolutely astonishing.

Anyone who knows the Jesus of the Bible will NEVER want to work for such an organisation. People lead to a religious experience by such a person really need to reevaluate that experience in accordance with the clear teachings of the BIBLE as a matter of extreme urgency as their eternal destiny is dependent on their relationship with the Jesus of the Bible ALONE.

By Wayne Capell on Oct 31, 2008

My comments have not been a justification or an apologia for any denomination - they are observations of facts. Generalisations that you are publishing here do not allow for the exceptions & therefore do not portray the respective situations fairly.
Remember, Philip Powell of CWM has stated they remain in the Pentecostal arm of biblical Christianity - using the river metaphor, I therefore would picture this valuable ministry as a needful current within the Pentecostal arm. [Philip identifies himself as an ordained A/G minister - how do you feel about that?]
It is not clear how you think we should “come out from among them” so could you explain? Must we all join or form yet another ‘movement’? And would you clarify what you consider are the absolute essentials for a ‘true Christian’?

God bless you, brother.

By Paul, a small potato on Nov 1, 2008

NO Paul - I am a former ordained AoG minister. My colleagues used a ploy to get rid of me. I would have been forced to reapply which I was disinclined to do. They actually refused to enter into discussions with me over the matter, This was when Andrew Evans was the General Superintendent.

Every blessing.

By philip on Nov 1, 2008

Paul,

THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS WHICH JUSTIFY BIBLICAL APOSTASY OR THE FALSEHOOD OF NON BIBLICAL RELIGIONS - FALSEHOOD WILL ALWAYS BE FALSEHOOD AND THE BASIS FOR REJECTION BY THE GOD OF THE BIBLE ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY. FALSE RELIGION WILL BE NO MORE EFFECTIVE THAN NO RELIGION AT ALL WHEN WE FACE GOD ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY.

Your MISREPRESENTATION of the FACTS clearly presented to us in the SCRIPTURES are extremely disappointing and, I am deeply saddened to say, deny the reality of what is actually going on within what some commentators refer to as christendom (THE WORLDLY OR FALSE CHURCH OF THE END TIMES) because of its overt denial of the most basic tenets of biblical christianity. I refer you once again to the comments by Andrew Evans in the opening comments to this blog.

To answer your question I will restate what is obvious to ALL truly born again bible believing christians:
The True Christian accepts salvation by the Grace of God alone, Justification by Faith in the (biblical) Jesus Christ alone, Sola Scriptura or the Scriptures as the Sole authority on matters of faith and morals.

Simply stated:

IF YOU AND YOUR CHRISTIANITY ARE NOT BIBLICAL YOU ARE NOT SAVED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION.

There is NO room in true christianity for Popery, Papal Infallibility, “Anointed Ones” of any kind, the Gnostic teachings of the “Anointed Ones” or any of the other NONSENSE which you seem prepared to embrace in the interests of ecumenical unity and as a crutch to underpin the emotional instability arising from flatly refusing to accept the clear teaching of scripture as the ONLY TRUTH OF THE ONLY TRUE GOD. BAALISM IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE SUBSTITUTE FOR TRUE CHRISTIANITY.

This ecumenical unity that you are so desperate to defend and support is clearly APOSTASY as represented by the following FACTS. These are historical facts recorded in history for all time. There is NOT ONE generalisation amongst them. The evidence is clear and irrefutable for ALL who wish to believe in the TRUTH.

Pope Boniface VIII declared in his “Unam Sanctum Ecclesiam” of 1302 that:
“it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
In 1870 Pope Pius IX proclaimed “Papal Infallibility” in all matters of faith and morals.

This is the basis of multitudes of unscriptural and anti-scriptural teachings and practices which biblical Christians find abhorrent and completely unacceptable.

There are multitudes of other false teachings which are also totally unacceptable to biblical christians and to the God of the bible alike but these are sufficient to prove the point beyond reasonable doubt.

This is historical evidence and more than enough to prove the point beyond reasonable doubt as required in a court of law.

The Roman Catholic Church NEVER changes.
They proudly declare that about themselves.
This is ignored by people who find that biblical teaching prevents them from engaging in the popular ecumenical and religious activities of the day.

When compared with the clear teaching of scripture such ecumenical activity is Biblical Apostasy.

The bible cannot be distorted to support both the claims of Jesus Christ and the counter claims of popery.

This most basic affront to biblical Christianity, the Roman Catholic teaching of “Unam Sanctum Ecclesiam” directly contradicts the words of Jesus in
John 14:6:
“I AM the Way the Truth and the Light,
NO man cometh unto the Father BUT by me.”

The National President of the AoG in Australia, Brian Houston, however, has stated,
“We pray that this papacy, LIKE THOSE BEFORE IT, is marked by a commitment to seeing the Christian message continue to go forward and people changed by the power and truth of the gospel.”

When has the Roman Catholic church ever proclaimed the True Christian message as clearly defined by Bible teachings?

Paul says in Galatians 1 verse 8 …..”though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

This is the biblical way of dealing with these people who would pervert the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I have heard and read of numerous examples of the AoG Executive pontificating on the basis of their “anointing” alone without reference to the teaching of scripture at all.

I have been told by a senior AoG Pastor that he knew better than the Bible because of his experiences in the ministry when I questioned why he was ignoring the clear teaching of scripture in his teaching and practice.

He also said that he could not use the bible in his pastoral ministry as it was “divisive.”

Paul states in Galatians 1 verses 10, 11 and 12 …..”do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

THESE ARE FACTS, HISTORICAL FACTS FOR WHICH INDIVIDUALS WILL BE CALLED TO ACCOUNT ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY.

These facts CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE THE APOSTATE CONDITION OF ORGANISATIONS WHICH (SADLY AND INDEED CATASTROPHICALLY if you should choose to persist) YOU SEEM DESPERATE TO SUPPORT AT ANY COST.

I urge you to reevalute your position in light of the clear teaching of scripture as only the BIBLICAL JESUS CHRIST IS ABLE TO SAVE US ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY. He will NOT accept compromise of any kind.

Christian regards

By Wayne Capell on Nov 2, 2008

Wayne,
Your reply is very offensive and verbally abusive.
I sincerely doubt that you have read what I actually have written in the time since your compliment of 20/10/08 - your comment above is evidence that you have read what you wanted to see, into my thoughts. And now you are damning me to hell !!!!!!!!!

What a turnabout is this ….. and in less than 2 weeks. A wild fluctuation.
..
You’ve made some false assumptions Wayne … and maybe you need to read what I actually said.

Paul, a small potato.

By Paul, a small potato on Nov 2, 2008

Thanks Philip,
I stand corrected - just assumed your ‘Reverend’ title had been conferred by A/G. Assumptions can be quite problematic, can’t they.

Cheers, Paul.

By Paul, a small potato on Nov 2, 2008

Paul,

I do indeed hope that I have misunderstood your comments and I will be very pleased to apologise most sincerely if my comments have been unnecessary in any way. I sincerely hope that they are. However I am unable to see what you are talking about. The comments of yours that I refer to are copied below. You state that you are referring to facts based on obviously absurd scenarios (from a biblical perspective that is) and you refer to “generalisations” which are, in fact, quite obviously statements of observable and genuine facts. I have answered your question about the absolute essentials for TRUE CHRISTIANITY and quite clearly we must refrain from association with apostate and false religious bodies in the manner suggested by Philip Powell.

I am sure you were talking about people being lead to a saving faith in Jesus Christ by a Roman Catholic priest in a confessional and other such absurdities and religious nonsense.

The following is also a copy of what appears to be an absurd comment by you which requires immediate reevaluation from a Biblical perspective.

“You’ve posted the anti-Roman Catholic information in the 31/10 comment above, quite a few times before on CWM blogs in the past 6 or 7 months. [It seems to be ‘a wheelbarrow’ you are pushing, yet it is relevant to this blog’s theme.]” I HAVE ANSWERED THIS COMMENT FULLY BY REFERRING TO THE WAY THIS DELUSION IS LEADING MANY PEOPLE TO HELL WHO MIGHT OTHERWISE THINK THEY WERE SAVED.

“I have spoken first-hand with a woman who, in a ‘confessional box’ in a Catholic church, was halted by the priest who had heard her confessions many times and who proceeded to lead her to repentance and saving faith in Christ’s once-and-for-all atoning death. These events occurred over 20 years ago & the fruit remains.”

FROM A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE THIS IS THEOLOGICALLY ABSURD AS CLEARLY SHOWN IN MY REPLY TO YOU. I MAKE NO APOLOGY FOR MY STAND FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS IF THIS COMMENT IS WHAT YOU ACTUALLY MEAN.

Please forgive me if that is NOT the case and you somehow do NOT mean what you seem to be saying. Rereading your comments however really only confirms to me the URGENT need for you to re-assess your position in the light of the clear teaching of scripture.

Unless you are able to show me how your meaning was different to the obvious reading of your comment (as copied below) I must state that you are in fact the mistaken one. If you mean what you actually said in your comments than I must urge you to actually READ what I have said, take it to heart, and turn to the GOD of the BIBLE as quickly as possible. ONLY THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE WILL BE ABLE TO SAVE US ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY NOT THE FANCIFUL JESUS OF THE FALSE CHRISTS cropping up every where.

“My comments have not been a justification or an apologia for any denomination - they are observations of facts. Generalisations that you are publishing here do not allow for the exceptions & therefore do not portray the respective situations fairly.
Remember, Philip Powell of CWM has stated they remain in the Pentecostal arm of biblical Christianity - using the river metaphor, I therefore would picture this valuable ministry as a needful current within the Pentecostal arm. [Philip identifies himself as an ordained A/G minister - how do you feel about that?]
It is not clear how you think we should “come out from among them” so could you explain? ”
PLEASE REFER TO THE COMMENTS BY PHILIP POWELL FOR YOUR ANSWER TO THIS COMMENT.

“Must we all join or form yet another ‘movement’? And would you clarify what you consider are the absolute essentials for a ‘true Christian’?” CLEARLY WE MUST HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FALSE CULTS _ FALSE RELIGION AND THE APOSTATE. I have said this to you and I will not change from this position as it is a principled stand for righteousness.

I DO SINCERELY HOPE THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO SHOW ME THAT I HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD YOU. OTHERWISE YOU NEED TO TAKE HEED OF THE SCRIPTURAL WARNINGS AS A MATTER OF EXTREME URGENCY.

By Wayne Capell on Nov 2, 2008

I wonder if we have a case here of dying by the letter, rather than living by the Spirit?

In my experience, if you remain true to the Scriptures you will not only have to come out, you will be polarised and pushed out.

I, too, struggle with the concept of remaining part of a dead religious system that so obviously opposes the truth. How can we, who are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

As changes have happened over the years I have found that true in my own fellowship also. It is difficult to stay where you don’t appear wanted.

By Kerry Stevenson on Nov 2, 2008

Wayne,
I asked you what you believe are the essentials for biblical Christians: and received a sarcastic reply giving 4 of the 5 Solas of the 16th century’s Reformation. I was actually interested in your understanding of this as I am presently compiling a Certificate of Christian Discipleship and am still fine-tuning some of the earlier subjects in the curriculum. However your tone of reply has halted my interest.

I also asked how YOU envisage people could put the call to ‘come out and be separate’ into actions - what should they do, in your way of thinking? : you avoided answering this for yourself. I know what Philip wrote, and I didn’t ask that, as I wanted to know what are your ideas on putting this into action that others can visually, physically see.

I have followed your stories with interest and empathy for your situation here in Brisbane, in the past. And I’ve had serious concern at your frequent vitriolic outbursts at people, mainly brothers & sisters in Christ, when their opinion differs from yours. And now I’ve copped a little in being damned to hell by you [BTW my salvation is secure, because Christ Jesus guarantees it].

Please stop being so cantankerous with those of us who obviously don’t dot every ‘i’ and cross every ‘t’ the way you do.

Your brother in Christ’s sovereign grace,

By Paul, a small potato on Nov 2, 2008

“The Body of Christ is like this in its history. IMO there are more arms in it than the 3 mentioned above - significant ones would include Orthodox, Catholic, Reformed, Evangelical, Restoration, Holiness, Pentecostal - which all have true believers within them, as well as “tares”. There are many diverse ‘currents’ in the water of each ‘arm of the river’ also, and they themselves are not that arm - but they are a part of the river system from which they have their identity. “
With regards to this comment on October 29 Paul, I would appreciate you explaining to me what you mean by certain ‘denominations’ being part of “the Body of Christ” in history. I have spent the last few years studying Primary School teaching at a Catholic university. In this course I have had to undertake Catholic theology subjects, and have been given a glimpse on some of their ‘basic’ teachings.

I am a born-again, bible-believing Christian who believes without a doubt that all scripture is God-breathed.

Your comment here “significant ones would include Orthodox, Catholic, Reformed, Evangelical, Restoration, Holiness, Pentecostal - which all have true believers within them, as well as “tares”” does not make sense to me as some of these ‘arms of Christianity’ are NOT arms of Christianity but false religions masquerading as the Body of Christ. Nothing in Catholic doctrine aligns with what the Bible says about salvation, biblical history and true Christianity.

I can understand what you are saying about the river and how it flows with some religions ending up away from the river and all but to me those religions that do not teach biblical Christianity never started in the river of the Body of Christ to begin with. They’re a completely different river with an essence of Christianity on top. I agree with Philip about the Catholic Church in this respect: “I do not see Roman Catholicism as featuring in any one of the three arms except by way of its inevitable corrupting influence. It is NOT an arm of true Christianity but rather a “tare” or a hybrid “mustard” tree or “leaven” in the biblical parabolic teaching.”

While I agree with your comment about some individual fellowships being completely cut off from the river of life, i.e. Pentecostal-charismatic groups etc., I fail to see how the Catholic groups could have been cut off from the river of life when they were never part of it in the first place. They did not start as an ‘arm of Christianity,’ they started as the ‘particular’ religion for the Roman Emperor Constantine 1.

I have no doubt that people in these false religions can be saved but I believe that it is important for them to come out from those religions to protect their salvation and follow the Jesus of the bible.

By Amanda, an even smaller potato on Nov 2, 2008

Amanda,
Allow me to try and clarify it.

The schism that caused the Eastern church to break with the Western church [later known as Orthodox and Catholic, respectively] produced denominationalism - not Constantine when he legitimated and sponsored Christianity as the state religion.

The seven arms I mentioned are not the only ‘arms’ I am aware of, but some seem to be panicking that there are so many. The arms are not particular denominations, there are people of hundreds of different denominational labels [& other objects] floating around in each arm. Individual congregations do vary from what their denomination may generally be like, as well. And also, a person in the ‘Calithumpian’ church at Moorooka may be quite different from others churching there.

I have not said denominations are the river of God. People who have been graciously saved by Christ alone, are the river of God and the way they band together are the currents and arms.

I have not commented at all about my thoughts on ecumenism … yet Wayne has tried to guess them,and on that wonky foundation has judged me and assigned me to hell.

I have not quantified proportions of the river arms that are now billabongs, and rivers do dry out when it has had too many billabongs created. It seems some people here don’t like reading what others actually say, but would prefer a fight over the metaphorical language.

In the cases I quoted, where did I say these beloved folk should remain in the denomination they were saved in?…. and where did I say they should not? Foolish assumptions have been stated in this past week …. leading to a so-called brother saying my metaphor is a lie.

I happen to love the body of Christ and my words have been irenic up to here. I won’t answer questions in this game playing that has occurred, any further, even though there may be other genuine enquirers like yourself, Amanda. I have stated my viewpoint, and have openly advised some aspects of my theological commitments and understandings.

I’ll contribute further on this blog if others lift their ‘game’.

God bless you Amanda - walk joyfully with Jesus.

By Paul, a small potato on Nov 2, 2008

Paul,

Regarding the false cult of Roman Catholicism, may I refer you to the following:

Invincible Gospel and the Modern Evangelical Lie
Our Friend Richard Bennett of Berean Beacon has produced another excellent DVD, which is free and can be viewed on his web-site.
The Invincible Gospel and the Modern Evangelical Lie.
Richard is a former Roman Catholic priest, who had great difficulty listening to some Evangelists giving a salvation message. He addresses this topic in the above DVD. While he has tried graciously in this presentation to present the Gospel as God’s gift and not man’s doing the response has not been great.
“On the contrary I think things are becoming worse. In fact, the way that ‘the gospel’ is often presented is that it looks as if man is sovereign and not God!” – Richard Bennett
Please Click Here (or copy paste URL into your browser):
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/

He also provides excellent teaching on the errors of this false cult as compared to the simple truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as presented to us in GOD’S WORD the Bible as a part of this web site.

After accessing the web site referred to above please click on the icon entitled “What Every Catholic Should Know” for a summary of Roman Catholic teaching compared with the teaching of scripture.

The divergence from the teaching of scripture is the reason why the pseudo-christian Roman Catholic church is one of the more dangerous false cults.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is extremely simple. It is this simplicity which is being distorted and perverted by the false teachers and false prophets cropping up everywhere.

The simplicity of the Gospel means that biblical christians have no difficulty whatsoever in taking God at His Word and believing His Word literally.

Consequently the most basic requirement of person calling him/herself a christian is the willingness to accept salvation by the Grace of God ALONE through the justification provided through the ONE act of redemption by Jesus Christ ALONE and the total reliance on the SCRIPTURES as the SOLE RULE OF FAITH AND MORALS.

This is BASIC christianity - to be any more prescriptive than this is to move towards popery which I strongly believe to be the unpardonable sin because it usurps the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the prospective believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

As a bible believing christian my family and I have NO difficulty in taking the Word of God literally. We therefore believe that COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM means literally COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM.

When I have been exposed to apostate Pastors and churches I have taken God at HIS Word and left that church and sought a church where the Word of God is preached faithfully. In accordance with Biblical warnings about the proliferation of apostasy and false christs in the last days I am finding this increasingly difficult to achieve. I fully expect to eventually have to avoid organised churches all together and to resort to the ministry of the Word to family and bible believing friends within private homes.

The following passages of scripture MUST also be taken literally if we are to live a life pleasing to the God of the Bible:

The bible teaches in 2 Timothy 3:16 that “ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness.”

2 Timothy 2:15, states “STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, A WORKMAN THAT NEEDETH NOT BE ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH” (KJV).
1 Thessalonians 5:21 states “Prove (JUDGE) ALL things: hold fast to that which is good.”

This literally means to JUDGE ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF GOD

This is why I state that:

IF YOU AND YOUR CHRISTIANITY ARE NOT BIBLICAL YOU ARE NOT SAVED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION.

I am NOT addressing this statement at you personally, Paul, but as a warning to all who believe they are saved. The only reason that anyone would be upset by such a comment is if they know they are perverting the SIMPLE gospel of Jesus Christ or accepting a distorted or perverted substitute and falsely calling it christianity.

The TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD HAS SET US FREE
The HOLY SPIRIT HAS EMPOWERED US TO APPLY THAT FREEDOM.

By Amanda, an even smaller potato on Nov 3, 2008

Thank you Amanda for your two postings. It’s good to have a woman’s “touch” as we men sometimes forget that the Bible also advises that “a soft answer turns away wrath” (Proverbs 15:1). We can all too often lose sight of the practical and personal teaching of the Bible in the light of what we think is the big picture. Grievous words stir up anger. Such discussions can end up generating more heat than light if we are not careful.

It seems to me that there are two major matters in the discussion that has proceeded and I suspect that both Paul and Wayne basically agree not only in what I am about to say but also in the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Words are lame vehicles of expression and sometime what a person intends to get across is lost in the words they choose. It’s happened to me many times.

1) Salvation is of the Lord and is revealed through His Word. Peter tells us that God’s Word is the regenerating seed that produces the new birth (1 Peter 1:23). If this has happened within an individual, no matter what his association at the time of the event, then that person is “born again” and he has eternal life. Let us not forget that the Lord spoke to and regenerated Martin Luther not after he left the Roman Catholic Church but while he was still in it. In fact he never fully left it, which was a mistake, even though God used him in reformation.

2) When a man or woman is truly born again the seed of the life of Christ will cry out for nourishment and growth. It is therefore impossible for such a person to remain in a totally deceived and decadent organisation no matter whether it be the dead formalistic heresy of Roman Catholicism or the outrageous and equally heretical sensational mysticism of the Assemblies of God, for want of a better comparison. Both associations can be equally damning.

Now, where does that put us all? It is so easy to see the wrong of others and fail to see the wrong of our own links. The call, “Come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing” (2 Co 6:17) was not given explicitly to Roman Catholics. It’s application is MUCH wider than that. We need to think very deeply about the wider picture — all of us.

God bless you all.

” … we do not lose heart. But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the Word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them” - 2 Co 4:1-4.

By philip on Nov 3, 2008

Excuse me being facetious here — I hope you can see the humor.

There seems to be something wrong with this body, shouldn’t it only have two arms? We’re getting that many arms we’re beginning to look like an Egyptian goddess — and we’ll definitely have to come out of that.

I can tell that you are studious thinkers here, and love the word of God. Some come from a different perspective to others. Actually Amanda reminded me of a Lutheran friend I used to have who couldn’t see why the need to ‘make a commitment’. You just either were, or you weren’t.

Predictably, I am not such a thinker, and I often see funny pictures when listening to your debates. The thing I love is the high regard for the word of God, which most here appear to have.

I don’t think Catholics were singled out [when I first started reading I thought it was aimed at the A-G], but exemplified. Philip has made that quite clear.

2 Corinthians 6 tells us to guard ourselves in 5 specific areas:

1. Fellowship
2. Communion
3. Agreement
4. Participation
5. Companionship

Every single one of these has to do with our relationship with others — and the importance we place on such areas of fellowship.

Since our fellowship is largely dependent on the structures of the church [be they congregational, denominational, or home fellowships] we need to be aware of their attitude to those things mentioned here. If there is something definitely amiss we need to reconsider our participation at any level.

Of course these things are not exclusive to the church.

By Kerry Stevenson on Nov 3, 2008

Amazing isn’t it how three “arms” of Christianity (Christendom) can turn into “rivers” that break off into all sorts of images!! Thanks Kerry for your humour and thanks Paul for bringing us back on course by directing us to what you actually did write. It’s not always good for the ego, but nonetheless very good as character building, to remind us all of our actual words which will ultimately condemn or justify us according to our Lord’s pronouncement - “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” - Mt 12:37.
To stick with the “river” analogy [which was certainly NOT in my mind when I referred to the three arms of Christianity, though I must confess neither was the human body in view — frankly I’m not sure what the analogy was]:
There is a river. Ezekiel saw it flowing from an altar () while John saw it flowing from a throne (). IMO this represents the EARTHLY (human) and the HEAVENLY (divine) aspects. The river of life always starts from an altar — the place of Sacrifice. Supremely this represents Calvary, but practically as far as we humans are concerned it signifies our own commitment and action - “I beseech you … PRESENT your bodies a living sacrifice …” (Romans 12:1). From a divine perspective it represents the SOVEREIGNTY of God. It flows from His throne and at HIS discretion and direction.
“There is a river that flows from God above
Come to that river …”
Many streams (arms) have been presented as being part of it, BUT it remains inviolate. When you are part of it you know it and there’s nothing like it - Praise the Lord.
What’s done cannot be undone. All is beneficial and all things [for those who are called and who love God supremely] will and MUST work together for GOOD - Romans 8: 28.

By philip on Nov 3, 2008

Paul,

I have absolutely NO idea what you are so upset about. Your comment, as copied below, to Amanda is bizarre when taken in the context of your comments and my replies.

“I have not commented at all about my thoughts on ecumenism … yet Wayne has tried to guess them,and on that wonky foundation has judged me and assigned me to hell.”

This is another classic misrepresentation.

I have been offended with what I strongly believe to be “righteous indignation” at your BIZARRE suggestion that a person can be led to salvation by a leader within a false cult - in this case the false cult is the Roman Catholic church. Has this woman subsequently left this false cult to seek proper spiritual nourishment as Philip refers to or are you another one of those who suggests that it does not matter what one believes so long as they refer to themselves as christian and talk about some “experience.”

I have scrutinized your comments as closely and fairly as possible and offered to apologise as sincerely as I possibly can if you are able to show me where I have misunderstood you. This offer remains and I would love to be able to offer you a whole hearted apology if you are able to demonstrate that I have misunderstood you.

You, however, have chosen to launch into a misguided personal attack.

Personal attacks generally indicate persistent scriptural ignorance and spiritual naivete and I sincerely hope that neither of these apply to you.

If, however, you actually mean what you say in your comment below you are on seriously shaky ground:

“I have spoken first-hand with a woman who, in a ‘confessional box’ in a Catholic church, was halted by the priest who had heard her confessions many times and who proceeded to lead her to repentance and saving faith in Christ’s once-and-for-all atoning death. These events occurred over 20 years ago & the fruit remains.”

I wholeheartedly endorse the comments by Amanda, above. All of the answers to the questions you have demanded I provide for you are contained therein.

What else can you possibly require of me?

By Amanda, an even smaller potato on Nov 4, 2008

I am very sorry to all readers. Amanda is my daughter, and wrote the first comment because she loves the God of the Bible and is a committed Bible believing christian. She is aware that the Roman Catholic Church is a false cult and that the AoG and pentecostalism generally [and I suppose most, if not all, of protestantism as well for that matter] is largely apostate. She also has had to leave the AoG church she grew up in due to wholesale apostasy.
Between us we forgot to change the contributor’s name applied to these comments. Please accept my apology for this. The last two comments attributed to Amanda were actually written by me. The first one in response to the comments and demands by Paul for answers to comments that seemed to me to be completely self explanatory.
This has been explained in the reply itself and the second in response to his repeated attacks on me without saying exactly what it is that has brought on these outbursts. As stated previously I stand ready and willing to apologise if Paul is able to show me where I have misunderstood him.
I also confirm that if I have understood him correctly, however, then my position is indeed a “principled stand for righteousness” consistent with the following scriptures:
Paul states in Galatians 1 verses 10, 11 and 12 …..”do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
In 2 Thessalonians 2 verse 15 Paul advises the brethren in Christ to ….”stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our epistle.”
AND
The Apostle Paul gave the instruction in Galatians 1 verse 9 …..”if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received let him be accursed.”
Is there anything else that you require of me Paul?

By Wayne Capell on Nov 4, 2008

Thank you Wayne & Amanda for your excellent posts!

“From faith to faith,” for Christians do not seek their salvation in Christ together with their personal achievements. “From faith to faith,” denoting that true believers depend completely on Christ both in time and eternity.

A cesspool of error-Romanism

The third council of Ephesus (431) accepted Augustine’s teaching that infant baptism is necessary for salvation.

In the fifth century Christian clergy functioned as a priesthood.

The Lord’s supper became a theoretical sacrifice.

High value was attached to the intercession of martyrs.

Priests became mediators between God and man.

At the fifth ecumenical council held at Constantinople under Justinian in 553, the council accepted Augustine’s De Civitate Dei as theory for earth rule. Under it the secular state would gradually be replaced by the visible church empire ruled by the Bishop of Rome.

Gregory the Great (590-604) outlined the new Middle Ages theology. It included salvation by works, a purgatory and masses or offerings of Christ in sacrifice.

Formerly the Abbot of a cloister, Gregory organized and financed the first Church Army.

Though previously stated by Siricius, Bishop of Rome (384-398) and claimed by Leo II (440-461), the title “universal Bishop” became official only in 707.

The false donations of Constantine appeared in 751. The documents claimed Constantine the Great had given to the pope, absolute supremacy over all churches and secular power over the earth.

Supposed pieces of the cross, pictures, statues and articles from early centuries became accepted as spiritual treasures during the eighth century.

The seventh ecumenical council, convened by Empress Irene and held at Nicea in 787, officially approved prayers to dead saints and martyrs.

The canonization of dead saints began in 995 by John XV.

Pope Gregory VII introduced celibacy of the clergy in 1074. He also said: “The Roman church was founded by God alone; the Roman pope alone can with right be called universal; he alone may be judged by no one; the Roman Church has never erred, nor will it err in all eternity.”

The celibacy of the clergy was imposed by Pope Calixtus II in 1123.

The Second Lateran Council was called in 1139 by Pope Innocent II to plan for the destruction of all non-conformists.

The sale of indulgences began in 1190 with Pope Clement II.

Auricular confession was instituted at the fourth Lateran Council in 1215.

Transubstantiation was also declared a dogma at that time. (Mystical Transubstantiation in which the priest changes the bread & wine into Jesus’ flesh & blood, I’m not a Cannibal!)

THIRTEENTH SESSION: THE EUCHARIST

Canon 1. If any one denieth that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

In 1229, at the Council of Toulouse, Pope Gregory IX placed the Bible on the Index of Forbidden Books.

The dogma of purgatory was pronounced by Eugenious IV at the Council of Florence in 1439.

The number of the sacraments was officially limited to seven in 1439 at the Council of Florence, though earlier some had claimed the number to be about thirty.

The immaculate conception was declared a dogma by Pope Pius IX; it stated the Mary was exempt from original and actual sin. (I guess they missed Luke 1:46-47)

Is Romanism Christian?

Did you know that the Decalogue/Ten Commandments “Laws of God” have been changed, and it was the Papacy who made this change? It is this power that lies behind the commandments found in the Catechism. Those commandments are quite different from Gods’ Ten Commandments as you find them in the Bible. Please investigate it for yourself. Compare the commandments found in the Catechism with God’s Ten Commandments as you find them in the Bible, in Exodus chapter 20, verses 3-17

Here are the Roman Catholic Ten Commandments.

First Commandment

I, the LORD, am your God…You shall not have other gods besides me.

Second Commandment

You shall not take the name of the LORD, your God, in vain.

Third Commandment

Remember to keep holy the sabbath day.

Fourth Commandment

Honor your father and your mother.

Fifth Commandment

You shall not kill.

Sixth Commandment

You shall not commit adultery.

Seventh Commandment

You shall not steal.

Eighth Commandment

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Ninth Commandment

You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.

Tenth Commandment

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house.

Did you notice the difference? Here is something else to think about.

Read Romans 3:23 - 26

23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The prayer of Christ for the apostles and all believers:.

John 17

2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

WHETHER THE POPE AND HIS SECT BE CHRIST’S CHURCH OR NO

BY WILLIAM TYNDALE [1]

http://www.geocities.com/ll_twoedged_sword_ll/Reformers/tyndale2.html

By Elaine on Nov 4, 2008

Paul,

I loved the wit in your name change. I hope you do not feel that I am ‘agin you’. I know sometimes, when it seems everyone is after you, and you stand alone, it can be tough on these blogs, forums, and other discussions. I have experienced it many a time.

In response to your reply on the 22nd of October, I accepted your statement, eventhough I do not agree with your interpretation of Romans 11. I did not respond for 2 reasons.

1. I did not want to distract from this blog in any way.

2. I hoped to see what Philip, or others might have to say, as I do not consider myself a master in the Church [Christ’s, not what we’ve come to experience today].

I do not see in Romans 11 that the church superceded Israel in any way but God, to fulfil every promise he made, instituted the time of the gentiles, sometimes called the age of grace by others.

There will come a time [known through the book of the Revelation as the millenium] when “all Israel” also known as “the remnant” will be saved. This is promised time, and time again in the prophets, and a particular reference is Jeremiah’s where he tells us God says, “I will take away their heart of stone, and give them a heart of flesh”, and “I will write my law on their hearts.” God will do this because of his promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as Paul mentions in Romans 11.

I do not, however agree with the stance of Lee Mullen.

God bless.

By Kerry Stevenson on Nov 5, 2008

Thanks Kerry,
Humour is a wonderful gift - particularly when it helps us laugh out loud.
I do appreciate your comments and can understand your viewpoint - as I was nurtured as a young Christian in a moderate [not extreme] premill. Dispensationalist environment - baptist, then independent charismatic. On the blog “A/G Doctrinal Death” I commented on 23/4/08 about why I don’t see things through those lenses now, while I do understand ‘where you’re coming from’. I pray the people of Israel will indeed repent and turn to the Lord Jesus, the only Saviour.

I agree with your comments of 2/11 and 3/11. IMO denominations are like wooden scaffolding around a ‘building’, and various parts of the scaffolding have termites inside, busily chewing away. Denominations will collapse [1 Corinth.3:12]. I’ve seen first-hand some “fleshly” aspects of each of the ‘river arms’ mentioned earlier - every believer struggles with “the flesh” to some extent. I am concerned, though, when only one grouping is critiqued (?) and done so with manifest hatred.

Thanks for listening

By Paul, a small potato on Nov 5, 2008

Yes Philip,
You are quite correct regarding my belief in the 2 key points you made. Thanks for that “breather” for us.

God bless.

By Paul, a small potato on Nov 5, 2008

Paul,

Thanks for the reply. I went to your comment in “Doctrinal death”. Sorry, I was a bit lost. I am no theologian, and know very little about different theological philosophies, so I didn’t really follow you there.

I will openly admit that I do not research as you show you do on these blogs — going from one website to another — and, although I have attended Bible College, don’t really care very much for the opinions of men. My argument has always been, show me that in the Bible (and be prepared for resistance until its proven).

Last night we had a “Jack Hayford study” on the Jewish feasts, and I was inclined to think that he confused the Feast of the Firstfruits and the Feast of Weeks. My observation from Scripture was that the Feast of the Firstfruits was the beginning of the countdown to the Feast of Weeks (50 days later). One at the beginning of the harvest, and the other at the end [approximately]. Someone else had a contention over his dates, which made this all quite a confusing mess as we ended up trying to deal with 3 objections at the same time.

I think we sorted through it to everyone’s satisfaction, with most agreeing that his dates were likely as close as we could get, and coming to the conclusion that the Feast of the Firstfruits did not continue through the fifty days, but was the feast of a day.

I suppose my motto has always been, if God said it, it has to be right, so I believe it. I also believe that the Bible (and the whole Bible) is the word of God, and that every word is Holy Spirit breathed and inspired. I suppose that labels me as something, but I wouldn’t know what.

By Kerry Stevenson on Nov 5, 2008

Thank you for providing further historical evidence about the false cult of Roman Catholicism, Elaine.

Bible believing christians will have absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

The factual, historical evidence is absolutely OVERWHELMING when viewed with total impartiality and a willingness to accept the truth of the Word of God as revealed to us.

Thank you also for your comments Kerry:

I suppose my motto has always been, if God said it, it has to be right, so I believe it. I also believe that the Bible (and the whole Bible) is the word of God, and that every word is Holy Spirit breathed and inspired. I suppose that labels me as something, but I wouldn’t know what.

This is exactly where we should all be at. Judging all things by the Word of God alone is the ONLY way to avoit the DELUSION which GOD will send to those who do not love the truth to the exclusion of all popular lies.

Your comments about Israel are somewhat puzzling however. There is of course ONLY ONE way to be saved. The people of Israel, as do people of all nations, still have to accept the atoning work of Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

I would suggest that the way of thinking and believing that you describe may even make you a “bible believing christian” Kerry.

God bless you

By Wayne Capell on Nov 5, 2008

“Your comments about Israel are somewhat puzzling however. There is of course ONLY ONE way to be saved. The people of Israel, as do people of all nations, still have to accept the atoning work of Jesus Christ in order to be saved. - Wayne Capell”.

Wayne,

You are absolutely right. If I remember correctly, at least twice in the prophecies of the Bible it says, “And they will look on me whom they have pierced…”

Remember it is Christ who returns in the millenium, and they who remain will see and know that he is the Christ of God, and the fulfilment of every promise, and they will mourn, repent, and believe.

I do not see salvation without accepting the atoning work of Jesus Christ. I only believe in God’s big promises.

By Kerry Stevenson on Nov 6, 2008

Kerry,
Thanks for your 5/11 comment re theology. Most regenerated followers of Christ agree wholeheartedly with the concept that every believer is a minister. Within that concept lies the understanding that the prime foundational aspect of ministry is our personal priesthood [’the priesthood of the believer’].
However, how many of us realise that EVERY person on Earth is actually a ‘theologian’? [theo= God; logia= understanding about.] Each one of us in the human race has beliefs about God (or about ‘non-God’ by atheists) and as a result we all have a theology-of-sorts. The key issue is how well do we do our theology?
Every sermon adds a bit more theological input to the listeners, and some sermons really ’stink’ - so it is important that we have some growing body of knowledge that is biblically-grounded, and doesn’t misrepresent Christian scripture. And that is why it’s vital for regenerated believers to be clear on the essentials of Christian belief, and on the non-essentials, and on ‘christian’ heresies (e.g.universalism, unitarianism, binitarianism).
Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology and the newer New Covenant Theology, are each theologies that address the question ‘What is the unifying theme of the Christian Scriptures?’ - and these theologies IMO are non-essentials. Each of them is Bible-based, thoroughly so, and can claim the statement “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” (as one of our fridge magnets tells us at home). None of them address the wider spectrum of theology [as, say, Reformed theology does] but are still useful in assisting us understand the big picture. Covenantalism has been around since the Reformation, and Dispensationalism is the product of JN Darby’s reflections.
As we learn to feed ourselves instead of relying only on Brother Big-Potato to feed us, we learn to discern between varying Bible-based theologies. It is a wise & large-hearted pastor who encourages questions and differences of opinion in their ’sheep’ who are growing to maturity - and who can function well as a pastor with that ‘flock’.
Good introductions on theological matters can be found on Theopedia [Christian] and Wikipedia [anyone writes anything, be discerning] - both are mostly written at a layperson’s level, and both contain excellent articles about all aspects of Christianity - the latter website seems to have many more articles on this.
We all do theology … [most notably when a human tragedy affects us directly … ‘Why did you let this happen God?’]. Therefore as God-fearers and Christ-lovers we need to keep growing in our theological understanding - that is a key part of being a Christian. What we believe affects our attitudes and values and these all influence our behaviours, actions and habits. If we neglect theology we actually choose to remain stunted spiritually, don’t you agree?
God bless you

By Paul, a small potato on Nov 7, 2008

Paul,

If by ‘doing theology’ you mean “study to show yourself approved” I entirely agree. The end of Hebrews 5 through the beginning of 6 tell us the things all believers should be conversant with. It seems a big ask in today’s church, but I don’t think it is impossible.

By Kerry Stevenson on Nov 8, 2008

As we immerse ourselves in regularly reading and meditating on the word of God we build a framework of meaning through which we start interpreting things (some call this our world-and-life view, others call it our paradigm). “Here a little, there a little … line upon line, precept upon precept.” Sometimes after further study and reflection we actually remove part of the framework of meaning and replace that with a different Bible-based understanding. The ‘first principles’ in Hebrews 5:11-14 are certainly an initial part of the framework, in this first aspect of “doing theology” - for understanding the Godhead and the Creation (that we are part of), is a life-long enterprise for each of us.
The 2nd aspect concerns how we let this knowledge we have gathered (our theology) actually shape our lifestyles. When people observe our lives overall - even allowing for ‘bad hair days’ - do they reflect in our character and actions that we “have been with Jesus”?
These are the primary aspects of ‘doing theology’.

Cheers,

By Paul, a small potato on Nov 18, 2008

“For not all Israelites truly belong to Israel” - Romans 9 v6.

“… but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling that law. Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone” - Rom 9 vs 31-32.

By Anonymous on Nov 23, 2008

IS ISRAEL YOUR END-TIMES IDOL ?

Jesus, to Israel: “Look, your house is left to you desolate.” (Matthew 23 v38 & Luke 13 v35.)

1 Thessalonians 2 vs 14b, 15, 16 says “… the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men, in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.”

By Anonymous on Nov 30, 2008

Although I am of the remnant and in no way a theologian, I am certainly impressed by both the Word and the Spirit portrayed in most of the postings ‘above me’. In adding a simplistic comment may I say that there is an excellent article in the C.E.T.F. Sept. 2008 edition authored by T. Austin Sparks and adapted by P.P. It speaks of the absolute requirement in the church today of the Levitical Priestly representation which is virtually missing and certainly totally ignored by the Church Emergent. There is too much text to comment on here BUT this is the vital element all but lost today and replaced by just about everything else! My real point of view I suppose is that the soi-disant remnant must take on board the dimensions of the Levite priesthood to be of any value. As such a called out person may yet stay in a congregation - never on the basis of “holier than thou” or of self-righteousness - simply to challenge and and dialogue with those who are classified as spiritual leaders. My guess is that he or she would not last too long on this mission! It’s well worth reading (though written 50 years ago) and should certainly stand out to those who are spiritually attuned.
Bearing in mind that Hebrews 12:14 states quite simply that without holiness no man shall see the Lord - it is a spiritual quality and indeed qualification to follow, and probably the hardest thing for the human heart to accomodate.

By Abraham on Dec 8, 2008

This is off topic but I would like to make a comment to “Paul, a small potato” who says “Dispensationalism is the product of JN Darby’s reflections.” A number of much earlier writers had the same beliefs even as early as Ephraem of Nisbis 306-73, he didn’t learn his theology from Darby. It may surprise you that he learned it from THE BIBLE. Now we don’t all have to agree on various topics, ie dispensational, covenant theology etc. however, we do need to be respectful and your following comments “…misinformed, silly Christians who’ve been taught that there are two ‘people of God’ and two plans of God for spiritual salvation (which generally rests on the faulty theology of Dispensationalism)” is far from respectful. I firmly believe, from reading the bible, that God has a different plan for His chosen people and has made certain promises to Israel that don’t apply to the church. This does not make me either misinformed or silly nor does it make my theology faulty. Stick to biblical facts and stay away from demeaning others who have a different biblical viewpoint than you.

By Pearl on Dec 18, 2008

PEARL:

I agree with you totally. While John Nelson Darby, (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) may have revived “dispensationalism” and the Scofield Bible (first published in 1909) popularised it, dispensationalism per se pre dates both by a very long stretch.

I also agree with your comment about the need to respect honest men with differing views on systematic eschatology. That God reserves the right to bless the person who disagrees with me, especially on end-time events, is a very good adage to live by.

For me it’s largely a question of balance. On a different matter, right now I have to respond to a question about whether I am “reformed”. The question is set in the context of our invitation to Paul Washer to our CWM Conference in August 2009. Paul is what many call reformed, although I do not know if he would apply the term to himself. While that term does have definite connotations in today’s Christian world, unfortunately it has also taken on elitist concepts. The important thing is not whether a person is “reformed” but whether or not he/she is “regenerated”. Unless a person is born-again he/she cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. Reformation does not save a person. Salvation always reforms everyone.

As I say it’s a matter of balance.

When a person is dubbed “reformed” what is usually meant is that he is “Calvinistic”. Both terms are far too general as well as being overly elitist at times. I am NOT a five point Calvinist simply because I think the starting point of the “T.U.L.I.P” acrostic is false. Mankind are NOT TOTALLY depraved e.g. all men are NOT intellectually depraved. Romans chapter 1 shows that men can seek after God intellectually. Most do have a knowledge of God. Total depravity according to Romans chapter 1 is the end result of a process, where men do NOT retain God in their knowledge and in their ways. Such end up being thrice given over by God and may end up being TOTALLY deprave.

Extremes in any doctrinal position relating to anthropology or eschatology are extremely dangerous. I do not accept extreme dispensationalism but I do accept it as Pearl has expressed it.

God does deal with Israel as a nation in His end-time build up of events. However Jews are not a select people in so far as salvation is concerned. Israelis and Jews can be saved ONLY on the same basis as all other people.

“Neither is there salvation in any other for there is NO OTHER name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.”

Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father but by me.”

By philip on Dec 18, 2008

Pearl,
Christians who are sucked in by marketing campaigns to donate money to nonChristian organisations in Israel, and who as a result believe that in so doing they are promoting the salvation of Israelis, are silly and misinformed. Secular Israelis have plugged in to the buying-pull of appealing to the spiritual interests of 3 major religions - Christianity, Judaism, and Islam - in the land of Israel. This is not a bad thing as long as we are aware that we are being wooed by adept marketers - and I would love to spend time there in Israel, too.
To give money thoughtfully to benevolent nonChristian causes in Israel may be worthwhile too, for Divine Providence is spread widely - but this is not part of the ‘disciple-making mandate’ of Matthew 28.
There are many godly and wise Christians who hold a mild form of dispensationalism who are not misinformed or silly, for my comment specified those who gullibly give away their money (read it and quote it in context, please). However I’ve encountered dispensationalists who have un-generously insisted that Jesus’ teachings on the Mount, for example, don’t apply to us but to the supposed ‘millennium’.
I sincerely apologise to you Pearl, for offending you - as you can see, I don’t in any way regard all dispensationalists that way.
.
Philip, as you are aware from my comments elsewhere in these blogs I openly identify myself as a reformed, evangelical, charismatic and pacific Christian - and in no way am elitist. The adjectives are only a form of shorthand to explain some dimensions of beliefs I am convinced about. A brother in Christ had problems accepting me as “reformed” a few years ago … why? because I’m not “Presbyterian” … so there is some validity in your thought.
BTW Calvinists focus on Jean Calvin (a Frenchman) and his teaching and ministry in Europe … while Reformed people include teachings of Calvin and other reformers, and particularly those in the U.K. … [Knox, etc].

It’s good to discuss such matters among God’s people, isn’t it.

By Paul, a small potato on Dec 19, 2008

P.S. IMO Dispensationalism is based on faulty understandings of the whole Bible’s teachings. New Covenant Theology is a much better approach, but not without problem. The mind and counsel of the Godhead are so great that much will be incomprehensible until our promotion to Glory. The theologies of covenantalism, dispensationalism and new covenant theology each attempt to explain the grand theme, unifying principle of Scripture. We must consider them fairly when studying this aspect of theology.

God bless you all who think on these things.

By Paul, a small potato on Dec 19, 2008

My acceptance of moderate “dispensationalism” is simply based.

1) There is the dispensation of Innocence – the edenic state before the fall;
2) This was followed by the dispensation of Conscience without specific law - the patriarchs etc;
3) We then have the dispensation of partial covenant relationship - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc;
4) Then the dispensation of Law - Israel in the wilderness and the land;
5) We are now in the dispensation of Grace - the Church age;
6) There will be the future dispensation(s) relating to the return of Christ, the future Kingdom of God, etc.

I think problems occur when one becomes too rigid and too detailed, but I think it is totally unrealistic to reject all ideas about dispensationalism. Likewise I think covenantalism can be too detailed and too rigid. This is what I mean by balance. In accepting aspects of the one structure it is NOT necessary to reject aspects of the other. This I think is logically and theologically acceptable. At least it satisfies me, so there is no need to fall out over these things.

By philip on Dec 19, 2008

Hi Paul, Apology accepted. I stand by what I said and I feel I did read and quote in context. The inference being that these people were misinformed and silly not because they give money but because they believe “there are two ‘people of God’” This, however, may not have been your intent.

But you do make your beliefs clear with other comments you make:

1. “Indeed the church that Jesus is building has superseded the national Israel in God’s grand plan of all the ages of time.”

2. “And another thing to ponder is that Jesus himself is the fulfilment and the completion of all the Father had destined Israel to be.”

I really cannot see how you can come to these conclusions. The bible is full of prophecy (some fulfilled, some yet to be fulfilled) which can only relate to national Israel and not the NT church.

For brevity’s sake I won’t quote in full but just give the bible reference please look them up for yourself.
Genesis 17: 7-8 God makes promises to Israel with regard to the land of Canaan.This is obviously not a covenant with the church and it was given as everlasting not until such time as the Messiah comes.

Jeremiah 46:28 When was the church ever driven to other nations?

Jeremiah 32:37-42 Talks of God gathering the Jews from where he had scattered them in his anger and wrath and of the great calamity he has brought upon them. God hasn’t brought great calamity on the church, so again he is talking about Israel. You cant just cut and paste the church into place for the prophecies specific to Israel, it doesn’t make sense. If prophecies made about Israel have been fulfilled exactly then why would you think prophecy still to come regarding Israel no longer refers to them but to the NT church?

Yes a large part of National Israel has turned from God and profaned his name, however, Ezekiel 36 answers this.”This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name” and then “ I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

God made an everlasting promise and as he is not a liar he must keep his promises, it wasn’t conditional upon Israel’s behaviour. God is identified consistently in the bible as the “God of Israel” If indeed the church that Jesus is building has superseded the national Israel in God’s grand plan of all the ages of time.” as you state and that “Jesus himself is the fulfilment and the completion of all the Father had destined Israel to be.” Then doesn’t that make Gods promises finished, and how does this fit in with as yet unfulfilled prophecy which can only refer to Israel and not the church? And if its all been fulfilled what did God mean by everlasting I wonder.

Now I am not suggesting there are two ways to salvation, Christ is the one and only way, but God has and will have different dealings with his chosen people Israel and the believers in the Church. They remain separate and distinct.

Being new to blogs it took me some time to figure out what IMO meant but I have it now and right back at you Paul.

“IMO New Covenant Theology is based on faulty understandings of the whole Bible’s teachings. Dispensational Theology is a much better approach, but not without problem.” Ha Ha. I look forward to further discussions.

By Pearl on Dec 19, 2008

Pearl,
Firstly, I’m interested in your comment of 18/12 that Ephraem of Nisbis taught Dispensational theology. I don’t recall coming across his name in the past however that may just be my memory fading. On googling him only 5 results were found - and they are on discussion forums, similar to this one. As there is no other online information readily accessible, can you please help me out and give URLs for his English translated writings where we’d locate this teaching - for translated primary source purposes, rather than say secondary or tertiary sources.
For you to say, though, that “it may surprise you that he learned it from THE BIBLE” is not too respectful - didn’t you read my comment on November 7th that shows that I regard each of these 3 theologies as based on the Bible?
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Secondly, in response to your comment of 19/12 I’d like to do this justice with reflection - yet it’s the ’silly season’ here in Oz and very hot - please give me time.
You are entitled to such an opinion on New Covenant Theology of course, but is that final paragraph above based on reading N/C theologians and consideration of this viewpoint, or is it rather a knee-jerk reaction?
I’m not into “theological ping-pong” in the sense of game playing, but Q&As are good between believers in sharing biblical understandings.
.
God bless you

By Paul, a small potato on Dec 20, 2008

Paul, With all due respect you need to lighten up a little. My final paragraph was not a knee jerk reaction or anything else it was meant lightheartedly and was a direct copy of your IMO from 19/12, simply swapping the words “new covenant” and “dispensational” around. Did you not notice the Ha Ha.

Try googling Ephraem of Nisbis again (sometimes it is also spelled Nisibis). In GOOGLE you get thousands of results - maybe other search engines don’t provide so many results.

Happy reading and have a lovely silly season.

By Pearl on Dec 20, 2008

Thanks Pearl, and you’re right, I have been heavy-hearted in these last few days [over a different situation] so will lighten up and enjoy your humour. Taaah.

By Paul, a small potato on Dec 21, 2008

Just to explain why people don’t come out more from ‘corrupt’ parts of the church.

If you look more closely, people’s main loyalties these days are to their local church, and not to the movement to which that church belongs. So, when people hear the call from Philip and others to come out from them and be separate, they ask, “Do I need to leave the *individual church* I am part of?”, and, if the church is OK, the answer will generally be ‘no’.

To illustrate: For years in NZ I was part of a very strong Anglican church, despite the massive weaknesses of the national movement. It is true that Synods (regional meetings) could be an exercise in frustration with some of the people there, but that particular blot on the landscape was only once a year. I am now part of a Vineyard church which has a strong commitment to the Bible. That personal commitment is despite the problems that that particular movement has.

There is also another side of this problem that needs to be teased out. Even in strong Bible churches with a good pulpit ministry, if the people are busy getting ‘additional input’ from the likes of the Internet or God-TV, then a lot that the pastor is trying to do will be weakened in practice.

By Ross on Dec 22, 2008

Pearl,
Your 20/12 comment that Google will give 1000s of results for “Ephraem of Nisbis” or “Ephraem of Nisibis” when searched for, did not produce more than 6 results for the former and 249 for the latter. Not one primary source [in English translation] nor one secondary source was among these 255 results. Please supply URLs to support your counter-assertion that this brother held Dispensationalistic views.
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The websites found on your recommended searches via Google only discuss whether he was post-tribulational or pre-tribulational [which seems to suggest he may have held the views of chiliasm, which was an early form of premillennialism]; and whether he, or the later Pseudo-Ephraem, authored a sermon teaching a quite different understanding of ‘the rapture’ than that held by current premillennialists. These are tertiary sources at very best - not authoritative enough to make your assertion.
Therefore please supply relevant URLs.

God bless you.

By Paul, a small potato on Dec 26, 2008

Perhaps I am ‘musing out loud’ here, but for all the learnedness on this and many other blogs, I keep remembering that the thief on the cross had none such that I know of ~ and he was justified by his faith, Christ being His justification and, of course, the Author of his Salvation - essentially a free gift.
So - what is vitally important? I mean really important? It’s clearly not by making a ‘decision for Christ’ nor by completing the Alpha course. Certainly not by good works, we all know that.
I’ve been reading a very scary book by Dr. Chuck Missler called ‘Prophecy 20/20′ - it’s worth getting hold of as it will refine all sentiments surrounding our perceptions of Salvation and being saved - in fact it will focus us on two things
(a) What lies ahead
(b) What must we do and be — as creatures of choice — saved to the uttermost.
Dr. Missler reminds and advises that the days ahead of us are far more than fearful, as every one of these days brings about the ultra-developments of awesome weapons of mass destruction, the latest being the “electromagnetic pulse bomb” which has the power to be deployed over, say, the US - exploded 250 miles high and disable all electromagnetic and standard electrical fields. No casualties, just slow death for a highly civilised society! The book tells it in a lot more detail, also the web-site www.prophecy2020.com/wmd. And please, none of us should ever say, ‘well I’ll be raptured out of it”. Will we? are we absolutley sure whatever some theological pundits say? So, the core point : Deep abiding faith in Christ is of the essence, so is overcoming and so is sanctification - and so, dare I say it, is the fullest Baptism in the Holy Spirit and constant fillings. I am certainly no extremist, and confess to constant spiritual struggling, yet I am confident that when Jesus returns He will find in me the faith He is looking for - without which I believe subjectively, I cannot be part of the Harpazo. Yes, a remnant is being called out, yes it’s going to be very hard until the day dawns, and many more churchgoers will see this as time goes on and will know the import of that scripture that (only) His sheep will know and hear His voice as He calls us!

By Abraham on Dec 28, 2008

What does the Harpazo mean, in the above comment?

By Anonymous on Jan 5, 2009

Sorry, a word used for the Rapture, looking at 2 Cor. 12:2 “such a one caught up to the third heaven…” = in Strongs “seize or take by force - caught up..” & under reference 726 = Harpazo. It means being caught up or taken (by the Lord) and is equated as the more popular word “Rapture”.

By Abraham on Jan 5, 2009

Harpazo appears 13 times in the New Testament including 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Strong 726 - harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” being a major text on which the doctrine of the Rapture of the saints hangs.

By philip on Jan 5, 2009

Pearl,
I’ve considered these scriptures and think I understand further ‘where you’re coming from’.
So I’d just like to make these general remarks:
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1. It is unwise to read the OT as if Jesus the Messiah had never come;
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2. It is unwise to read the OT as if the scriptures of the New Covenant (the NT) had never been written;
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3. We should be mindful of the old saying about approaching these two Testaments-
“The New is in the Old, concealed,
the Old is in the New, revealed.”
The NT explains AND interprets clearly the OT, and never the reverse.
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4. The NT teaches us that Abraham’s seed to whom “all the promises of God” belong, are those who believe the good news of Jesus Christ - see Galatians 3:7,29; 2 Corinthians 1:20.
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5. By applying OT prophecies of future blessing to “Israel after the flesh” we inadvertently misuse the scriptures and destroy the prophecy - as such prophecy is intended for the true Israel, the holy nation of 1 Peter 2:9. In reading Hebrews chs 8-10 and Gal 4: 21-31 it is clear that all the promises of future blessing for Zion and Israel must only belong to the heavenly Zion and the true Israel.
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May the LORD bless you as you reflect on this grace he abundantly gives.
May we all continue praying for Israel after the flesh, and her neighbouring regions, to cease their current murderous acts of revenge. Already over 1,000 murdered by Israel’s bombs. What an unnecessary tragedy.

By Paul, a small potato on Jan 14, 2009

The above comment’s conclusion is not intended to be biased against Israel only, as it is regarding all peoples in the Middle East. There is a vicious spiral of violence and revenge that has been acted out for some decades by all of them. And since making the comment the murderous Bin Laden has tried to whip up Muslim support for a jihad in the region.
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As followers of Christ Jesus we cannot smugly sit by and console ourselves that “these are the signs of the end of time”, nor can we support any of these warring sides in their actions. The teachings of Jesus and the apostles is clear: we are to eschew all violence. It would be almost impossible to carefully read Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount and come away honestly thinking otherwise.
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It is time for each one of us to pray and passionately intercede for this violence to cease, and for violent men and women to be removed from power in nations. May the carpet near our chairs be worn down from our intercessions as we seek God’s mercy.

By Paul, a small potato on Jan 17, 2009

MILLIONS MISSING or MILLIONS MISSLERING?
Many these days are abandoning the pretribulation rapture view, and the June, 1995 article by Chuck Missler (”Byzantine Text Discovery: Ephraem the Syrian”) reveals why there is such a mutiny! First of all, the authoritative scholar that Missler cited, Dr. Paul Alexander, referred only to “Pseudo-Ephraem” and not to Ephraem the Syrian. (If an unsigned ancient manuscript resembles the real Ephraem but there is a question of authorship, they assign it to “Pseudo-Ephraem” - the word “pseudo” meaning “possibly.” For some groundless reason, Grant Jeffrey, the one who reportedly found the “discovery,” changed Dr. Alexander’s terminology! For more info on Jeffrey, Google “Wily Jeffrey.”)

And Missler’s scholarship is also questionable. According to the Los Angeles Times (July 30, 1992), about one-fourth of Missler’s 1992 book “The Magog Factor” (which he co-authored with Hal Lindsey) was a daring plagiarism of Dr. Edwin Yamauchi’s 1982 book “Foes from the Northern Frontier”! Four months later Yamauchi’s publisher revealed that both Lindsey and Missler had promised to stop all publishing of their book. But in 1995 they were found publishing “The Magog Invasion” (which was either a revision or a replacement of “The Magog Factor”) - which had a substantial amount of the same plagiarism! (Dave MacPherson’s 1998 book “The Three R’s” has complete documentation on this and other pretrib scandals.) .
.
After listing “1820″ as the reported date of the birth of pretrib (he should have said “1830″), Missler sees a pretrib rapture in that Medieval writer’s phrase “taken to the Lord” and, since he evidently favors rewriting others instead of researching, is unaware that Dr. Alexander explained that this phrase really means “participate at least in some measure in beatitude” - which has reference only to doing acts of virtue on earth and not being raptured away from earth! Alexander added that the same ancient writer held to only one final second coming (and not to any prior coming) which would follow the time of Antichrist! (Readers can Google “Deceiving and Being Deceived” by MacPherson to see how groundless the Pseudo-Ephraem claim is and to learn how desperate pretribs are to find any pre-1830 evidence for their escapist view. Dr. Robert Gundry of Westmont College has also demolished the Pseudo-Ephraem claim in his 1997 book “First the Antichrist.”)
Since Missler also leans on Thomas Ice, readers can evaluate Ice’s qualifications by Googling “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun),” and “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” (the latter part). For further light on the 179-year-old, fringe-British-invented pretribulation theory, Google or Yahoo “Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts.”

Finally - why would anyone who has the brains of a rocket scientist want to be taken up with the concept of an any-moment pretrib rapture? The answer may well be that there’s more money in elevating a rapture than launching a rocket!

By Katie on Feb 1, 2009

Eschatology:
There are 3 traditional positions on the end-times:
- Futurism - The belief that most of the prophesies in the Bible concerning the end-times are still to come. It was first introduced by a Spanish Catholic Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera in 1590.

- Preterism - The belief that most of the prophesies in the Bible concerning the end-times happened by 70 A.D. It was first introduced by a Spanish Catholic Jesuit priest named Luis De Alcazar posthumously in 1614.

- Historicism - The belief that most of the prophesies in the Bible concerning the end-times have been occuring over time. This was and has been the commonly held belief of Protestants during and after the Reformation.

http://www.historicist.com/related_subjects/problems.htm

“How is it Christians can be divided over spiritual issues if the Holy Spirit is their Teacher?” ~ Rand Winburn
http://www.iconbusters.com

P.S. Good post, Katie!

Peace,
Elaine

By Elaine on Feb 3, 2009

Thanks for that info Katie,
I was genuinely interested in Pearl’s, & Philip’s later, statement that Dispensationalism pre-dated the Irish lawyer John Nelson Darby’s conception and promulgation of it - however my request about 6 weeks ago, above, for specific reliable references re this Ephraem character has not yielded fruit.
The discussion above about pretribulationism and Ephraem/False Ephraem is very enlightening, and exposes some popularisers of a wished-for Pretribulational Rapture as clutching at straws. Thanks for clarifying that.
.
Methinks sometimes that Dispensationalists who hold pre-trib views are unaware that others in the same ‘Dispie’ fold don’t hold that particular view. Not all who are pretrib in eschatology are dispensationalist, and not all dispensationalists are pre-trib, in fact many from studying scripture now believe in the post-tribulational rapture. Maybe this accounts for some of the earlier confusion of the above discussion in December 08, too?
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In the absence of reliable info to show otherwise it certainly seems that Darby was the author of both theologies [of Dispensationalism and Pretribulationalism] in a period of political revolutions when people were searching for security in their belief systems. (Remember, Karl Marx was a contemporary of Darby, and Napoleon’s wars were still fresh in people’s minds.) Many accepted these new ideas. Harry Ironside (also a lawyer, like Darby, but without formal Bible training) was a Dispensationalist who said that until Darby’s dispensationalist idea of a postponed kingdom, it “is scarcely found in a single book or sermon through a period of 1600 years” (The Mysteries of God, Loizeaux Bros, NY, 1908). It truly appears that Darby put this hermeneutical system together, not someone earlier - and personally it is insignificant to me as to who did the deed, apart from my interest in the development of the body of Christ and its Christ-centred theology.
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This admission that the saints of God through the centuries did not believe such a scheme is very significant for those who hold to it, as they must ask ‘What did they believe instead?’ if they see the Holy Spirit guiding the church into all truth throughout the years. If godly men and women studied Scripture and were led by the Spirit, what did they believe instead?
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May the LORD bless each of you who read & reflect on this.

By Paul, a small potato on Feb 4, 2009

There are many errors in the church - I believe that God will soon shake the church and only what is of Jesus Christ will remain. However, each one of us needs a shaking - not only for purification but also to get rid of all the baggage that has been accumulated through history via Christendom as well as evangelicalism. It is sad though that many of the ‘errors’ mentioned on this blog and website against Christian groups are largely based on misconceptions, false accusations, pettyfogging, straining at gnats, and faultfinding. Every Christian cult believes it is a remnant of the faithful.

By Anonymous on Feb 17, 2009

Dear Anonymous:

It would be great if we knew who we are addressing.

You have a point that many Christian cults (certainly not every cult) believe they are a remnant of the “faithful”. However, as with every other issue, Scripture is the test. “If they speak not according to this Word it is because there is no light in them.” Paul, by implication, instructs us all to act like the ancient Bereans - see Acts 17:11 - and search the scriptures in respect of what is being taught. We at CWM try to do that and you should do the same and not simply engage in dismissive generalisations as you have done above.

For the record we do not believe that we are “The Faithful Remnant”, but we do believe that we are part of that remnant, which the Bible clearly predicts will emerge in the end times.

You acknolwdge that there are many errors in the “Church” and that it needs a shaking. So let’s pray that the shaking will occur and that errors will be shaken out.

Please show us where we have made “false accusations”? If you can’t, then you would understand that you are guilty yourself of making a false accusation against us. Also, please point out with specific reference the other things you accuse us of–straining at gnats, faultfinding, pettyfogging, (maybe you mean “pettifogging”)– largely based, you say, on “misconceptions”.

Well, what are the misconceptions and what evidence - using specific examples - do you have for your accusations? If you don’t, or can’t, produce them then you have falsely accused us.

I look forward to hearing from you ASAP.

Sincerely yours in Christ,

http://www.christian-witness.org/blog
http://www.cwmfellowship.org
http://www.christian-witness.org

By philip on Feb 17, 2009

Philip - every group believes that their interpretation of scripture is the final test, as do heresy hunters. Those you accuse also are genuine in their interpretation of scripture and measure everything by scripture, as well as having a relationship with the One who is the way, the truth and the life. You are right that it is spelt ‘pettifogging’ rather than ‘pettyfogging’ - and perhaps this correction on your part goes some ways to proving my point. Evidence for false accusations, malicious gossip, pettifogging, and misconceptions abound in your various publications, and are clear for those with even a little discernment to view.

By Anonymous on Feb 18, 2009

Anonymous - why won’t you state your name? Are you ashamed to stand by what you write?

The Bible is of NO private interpretation cf. 2 Peter 1: 20. We come to a correct interpretation by comparing spiritual things with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2: 13) and by comparing scripture with scripture. By this method the Holy Spirit leads us into ALL truth. So your simple dismissal based on the idea that every group believes that “their interpretation is the final test”, is just plain silly and a ridiculous way of arguing. It begs the question and in effect builds a straw man which is then thrown down. This is irrational.

You have not and cannot provide the evidence for your accusations against us, so they are false accusations. I have challenged you to do so and you have failed. You try to cover your failure by making additional generalised accusations. This type of discussion goes nowhere and is pointless.

Please tell us who you are and please respond to my challenge to point out where we are guilty of the things of which you accuse us, otherwise please desist.

I am happy to carry out a rational discussion, but you are being totally unreasonable.

By philip on Feb 18, 2009

The bible is clear that we see only in part. No human can make claim to perfect doctrine - if it is not perfect then by definition it is in error. What you seem to imply by what you have said above, and through your various publications, is that everyone who does not agree with your interpretation of scripture is a heretic. A very arrogant position to take, to say the least. The evidence for false allegations and the bearing of false witness is clear in your various publications. I know you are frustrated that I won’t oblige by also pettifogging, but you’ll just have to get over it.

By Anonymous on Feb 18, 2009

Dear whoever you are:

I really am not frustrated and have nothing to “get over”.

According to the dictionary “pettifogging” principally means to practice legal deception or trickery and secondarily to quibble or wrangle about petty points.

Seeing you will not come clean I will say no more. By your failure you have turned this into the very thing of which you accuse me.

Kind regards and farewell.

By philip on Feb 18, 2009

The most apt definion of pettifogging in the context of your ungodly behaviour when faultfinding various Christians and Christian groups - is that of quibbling over petty points. However, the various definitions in the various dictionaries and thesauruses - both in print as well as online - in my opinion are all apt at various levels. This too is all I have to say on the matter - except to say that I pray that as you learn to walk with God as Enoch did - that the Lord would open up the eyes of your heart and that you would repent of the false accusations and malicious gossip you bring against many of your brothers and sisters in Christ.

By Anonymous on Feb 18, 2009

Anonymous,
I can’t agree with your statement above (on 18/2) that Philip seems to treat those who disagree with his own viewpoint as ‘a heretic’. You may have noticed that he and I have quite different points of view, based on scripture, on various issues (e.g. millennialism, dispensationalism, reformed theology, etc) in our various comments. Yet Philip has always treated me as a brother in the Lord … not once has there been an implication that I am heretical, so I believe you could be missing the mark on this.
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Of course, there are various opinions in the body of Christ in the non-essentials, and we all admit and tolerate this. However the NT warns us against false teachers who will gain leadership in parts of the church and teach error, and we are told to expose it - for the essentials always remain the essentials. Today in parts of the ‘Church’ unitarianism, binitarianism, universalism, new thought teachings, new age teachings, spirit guides (as ‘angels’), all-paths-lead-to-God teachings are increasingly being accepted, for example - even in churches that identify themselves as Spirit-filled. And the lust for money and status has gripped many church leaders. It is right and necessary to shine a light on such matters, and to engage in discussion on them.
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Perhaps giving the date and subject of a particular comment/s would enable Philip to clarify what you are concerned about?
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Cheers

By Paul, a small potato on Feb 18, 2009

Philip,
I’ve meant to follow up with you for a while about your comment 2 months ago (on 18/12/08), which was more of an aside, regarding reformed theology and the T.U.L.I.P. acronym.
You mentioned you have difficulty with the “t” of total depravity of each person. Often the problems we encounter in such historical formulations of faith have a lot to do with changes in meaning in the English language. A website called The Bible Lighthouse thinks that the key ideas of TULIP would be better expressed by using another acronym instead, E.L.E.C.T.
E is ‘exhaustive depravity’- sin has exhaustively affected every part of humanity, even though man is not as evil as he could be.
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L is ‘Lord-centred’ - in election, God does not elect people for salvation based on any quality of the person - it is for his own reasons alone, not for man-centred reasons.
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E is ‘effectual atonement’- the atonement does not fail to accomplish the forgiveness of the people for whom Christ Jesus brutally died. The atonement is 100% effectual for each of them. ( Every Believer believes in a LIMITED atonement actually, it is either limited in the number it is applied to, or it is limited in its effectiveness [as Arminianism teaches].)
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C is ‘conquering grace’ - God’s grace to the elect is often resisted at first, yet it never fails to achieve its ultimate goal.
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T is ‘triumphant saints’ - God sovereignly protects his elect people and although sometimes a Christian may not seem to be persevering too well, the Lord will pick them up and ensure that they finally endure and persevere in their faith.
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This seems to be a worthy re-statement of some key points in Reformed theology… and I trust it is helpful for others, also.
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Cheers

By Paul, a small potato on Feb 18, 2009

Anonymous,

Your attack on the integrity of Philip and CWM is so trite and lacking in substance as to be absolutely meaningless.

Specific reference to issues of concern will contribute to a positive outcome when they are dealt with in the context of the clear teachings of scripture.

You do yourself a great disservice by attacking the man and not the issue(s) and refusing to provide substance to your apparent vitriol.

The issues referred to in this and other such blogs are the issues of eternal life and eternal damnation. They are hardly the “petty” issues you so glibly disparage with references to inappropriately dismissive terms.

People who think they are saved are going to hell because of their willingness to conform to politically correct notions so prevalent within the contemporary church. Ecumenical fervour is not the least of these delusions. Your dismissive attitudes are contributing to the comfort of those deceived with these delusions.

As Philip has requested be specific or be repentant.

Wayne

By Wayne Capell on Feb 19, 2009

Thanks Paul and Wayne for jumping to my defence. I really do wonder who “anonymous” is. Frankly he sounds like an old colleague–someone who I attended Bible College with, and who was keen on using words like “pettifogging” when he didn’t really understand their meanings. Any way I doubt he’ll have the courage to give us his real name.

I can agree to differ on many things as you both know and as Paul has pointed out with evidence. What “anonymous” has done is totally unreasonable in that he has made attacks against me and others without any substantive evidence. When he was challenged he simply resorted to other generalised attacks as you have both pointed out.

On the point of T.U.L.I.P and the other acronym E.L.E.C.T in my view Paul we will always end up in a logical and theological quagmire. This is because of the nature of words, which are best described as “lame vehicles” of expression. It is the danger of formulating ideas and doctrines with trite expressions. In a sense we all do it and so all become guilty.

Yes - I do have problems with the idea of “total” in the TULIP acronym, but similarly I think I would have difficulty with “exhaustive” in the ELECT acronym. Romans chapter 1 argues against both ideas as I understand the meaning of each word. My understanding of biblical teaching is that man is capable of seeking after God until God finds him. He cannot be saved as a result of his own inquiries or on his own apart from God’s infusion of saving grace. Similarly I think that anyone is very hard pushed to biblically argue that man can never finally resist the amazing grace that God offers and employs. This does not mean that man’s will triumphs over God’s Will. It is simply that God in His absolute sovereign will has determined that things will be thus. He did not make man a robot but a creature of choice and that will always apply. His will makes many a man willing, but there will always remain the option of saying “I wont.”

I am sure mine will not be the final word on the topic that has occupied the greatest minds of all time. One day we will “know even as also we are known”. May God haste that day. Until that time may He grant us His grace to allow for differences and to always give a “reason” - literally the “defence” - with rational evidence for the hope within.

In Christ.

By philip on Feb 20, 2009

Actually Philip - I am not attacking you, I don’t know you, never met you. I am however addressing the public attacks you make against many Christians. I don’t need to waste time being specific as you and other heresy hunters know who they are. Furthermore, the specifics have been pointed out to you many times by myself and others - but you only respond with further false allegations and misconceptions.

The bottom line is - you need to repent of malicious gossip and bearing of false witness against your brothers and sisters in Christ. I pray you do this before we all have to give an account for our words spoken against others - before Christ on judgement day.

By Anonymous on Feb 25, 2009

Anonymous, Only the Jesus of the Bible can save us. The inventions of man will be useless when we stand before the throne on the Judgement day.
The only way to avoid the delusion which God has promised to send to those who do not love the truth is to be totally committed to judging all things by the Word of God.
All true ‘heresy hunters’ - as you choose to call biblical christians everywhere - are faithfully applying the blowtorch of scripture to the nonsense which is being fed to, and accepted by, a gullible generation who have chosen not to love the truth and to follow after false gods.

On this blog you have here the opportunity to detail your allegations and provide some form of evidence for the basis of your claims or to apologise to Philip and to the other well-intentioned participants on this site.

By Wayne Capell on Feb 25, 2009

I’d love to work with you all. May God bless you all.

brother evans

By Evans on Mar 1, 2009

Anonymous,
Free speech is almost as precious as rubies, but I do think you ought to append your identity to avoid confusion.

By Abraham on Mar 2, 2009

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By Moderator 2 on Mar 3, 2009

“And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.’” (Rev 18:4 NKJV)

My only hope in writing is that some will read it, heed it, and come out of these Latter Rain
revivals.
There is no “new paradigm” as far as Christianity is concerned, just the same old narrow road that leads to eternal life in Christ. No immortality or streets of gold on this side of heaven. Just the truth. The
Way, the Truth, and the Life - and that “old rugged cross”.
It comes as no surprise that we are in the midst of a terrible apostasy in these last days as we have clearly been warned that it would come. It is still frightening that so many of God’s people today could fall for the same old lie that first deceived Eve so many thousands of years ago.

“You shall be as gods.”

The same old lie of Satan is the lie at the heart of the New Age Movement.

Even sadder is the fact that it is the same lie that the Latter Rain “prophets” and “apostles” of “Joel’s Army” are putting forth today.
You will become Christ – God on this earth.

The heresy of Apotheosis.

Thousands of Christians are swallowing it – hook, line, and sinker.

The Church is trading her heavenly hope for an earthly delusion.
Like those foolish virgins of the
parable, their lamps have run out of oil. What they perceive to be oil, “the anointing of the Holy Spirit”, is instead a sensual counterfeit offered up by seducing spirits.

This counterfeit anointing comes with a
counterfeit gospel of a false triumphalism that will lead to a New Age “Kingdom” under Anti-Christ.

They will accept Anti-Christ with open arms, perceiving him to be Christ, whom they mistakenly identify as the
“rider on the white horse” of Revelation chapter six verse two.

What is so desperately needed in the Church today is so desperately lacking – discernment.
Discernment to tell the Spirit of Christ from the ecumenical spirit of Antichrist.

To discern the true anointing
from the false anointing, the true Christ from the Gnostic Anti-Christ of the Manifest Sons of God.

If you are participating in any of these Latter Rain revivals or churches today I urge you to turn back to the Bible. Compare what you are hearing and seeing with what is recorded and portrayed in the scriptures

“Test all things, hold fast to what is good.” Call the leadership into account for everything they say, or teach,
or do that does not line up with the word of God. If they refuse to repent – leave. Flee from the place and
don’t look back. “Remember Lot’s wife.”
I know it can be hard to leave a church, especially if you have
family and close personal friends there. But if they will not hear you – leave them behind.
The Latter Rain prophets are right about one thing – doctrine divides. Truth separates the wheat from the chaff.

In the early Church the Apostles kept the deceivers and false apostles out. They did this by publicly identifying the heretics and warning the sheep of their false doctrines.

Because of the diligence of
the true apostles of our Lord, the false apostles and their followers were forced to leave the Church.
The Apostle John writes:

“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many anti christs have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.” (1 John 2:18,19 NKJV)

Today we face just the opposite situation in that the false prophets and apostles are in the majority in many churches.

When they gain inroads into a church it’s more likely that only a minority will reject their false doctrines, revelations, and counterfeit “anointing” and stand on the Bible, being forced to go out from among the apostate majority.

Hold fast to the end for I am convinced that God is testing faithfulness rather than novelty in these last days.

By Anonymous on Oct 10, 2010

True discernment MUST be based on The Word of God..
There are many books today that claim to be the Word of God. The Koran, the Islam holy book, claims to be the Word of God. The Book of Mormon claims to be the Word of God. The Hindus believe the Bhagavad Vita is the source of eternal truth. Karl Marx, with his atheistic world view, claimed his writing, The Communist Manifesto, was the ultimate truth. Hitler had his Mein Kampf read religiously and this contributed significantly to the fanaticism of Nazi Germany. A former Pastor of mine responsible for bringing Latter Rain and New Age heresies into the church my family grew up in even claimed that he did not “care about bible doctrine, I only care about my anointing.”
We Christians, however, believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the eternal source of truth we live and indeed die by.

By Wayne on Apr 8, 2011

Hello all.

I’ve read with some interest the discussions on the “Gathering of the faithful remnant”.

I would like to make a comment or two about all this.

For a starters the old chestnut is quoted: 2 Corinthians 6:17. I do not think that for one minute that this passage is referring to other Christians and their differing nuance of opinion. Put the bible back on the shelf for a couple of months and do a purely secular academic study into ancient Corinth.

I think that this would give a much better insight into ALL matters concerning St.Paul’s comments regarding anything Corinthian.

The comment about being “yoked with unbelievers” was used in the old days to justify divorcing the non-faith journey partner. The text had little to do with this issue. The old comment about “harmony between Christ and the Devil” is another old favourite taken quite out of context and slammed at any thing the opposing opinions held dear.

Just an aside: The term “Devil” is not in fact used here at all. The greek being; “Belial” or as this hebrew word would suggest: worthless, good-for-nothing. Paul is referring to the worldly behaviours of the Corinthian Community at large.
They have nothing to offer those in the journey of faith.
The philosophers of the day were appalled at the “over the top” behaviour of Corinthian lifestyle and referred to it as to be “Corinthianised”.

Even the non christian today has some keen sense of moral propriety.

Paul uses much pictorial language in this book which is all directly related to daily Corintian social/economic life.

The mention of the race for the “Crown” is a direct reference to the Isthmian Games; held in the nude no doubt as was greek custom. The corruptible crown being a wreath of wild parsley according to some scholars is held in comparison to the crown of life.

The Love Feasts and drunkeness are all to be found in the religious cultural feasts of Dionysus. Basicaly getting plastered and entering into “wonderous communion” with your god.

Paul was dealing with a lot of cultural norms which needed to be re learned as far as those in the faith journey were concerned.

Looking at a map of ancient Corinth would show us clearly the abundance of temples and the cultural normal life styles surrounding them.

The temple of Aphrodite with about 1000 or so temple prostitutes and such. The new christian converts had a great deal to “Unlearn” and were in need of a new direction in their lifestyle management. This new lifestyle was to be instructed and taught as part of what we today would call discipleship training.
The new social mores would be based upon the Old Testament/New Covenant synthesis.

A study in the city of Corinth as a purely historical subject puts a great deal of Paul into clear focus. The “Love Feast” as a precursor to our Eucharist is of amusing interest. When discussing how much should eat and drink at this feast a rather jolly satement is made. One of the church fathers is quoted as,”eat or dink not that much that thou needest to visit the vomatorium!”

So there you have it. Are we talking about obvious cultural norms that are at quite obvious conflict with Jewish/Christian behaviour. OR are we interpereting all this as a piss fight over theological nuance and whimsical congregational oddities??

I think for one there is no sane comparison at all. Over my 50 or so years in the intentional faith journey there is always some one warning about “coming out” from among some thing or another. The old Brethren used to say that about the new emerging Pentecostals.
However now that the Pentecostals have established Riches, Ritual and Real Estate every one has now settled down.
Even the Pentecostals who originally despised the whorish roman religion have settled down.
Rome is now their new best friend: everyone is now happy. Just a jostling for position I think.

I think the whole issue is somewhat “Shrill”.

I will recall a real life story. A brethern boy up the country road from me had this dilemma. I asked him if he would come to the Saturday afternoon movies with me. Roy Rodgers was on and for a young country boy what could be more exciting than seeing our hero defeat the baddies. Well my fiend said that he could not attend the movies. We were to “come ye out and touch not the unclean thing” I always thought that Roy Rodgers looked rather dashing in his immaculately “Clean white gear!!”

His argument was that “What if Jesus came back” and caught him in the movies. He would find himself roasting in hell. Imagine that; 20 million years screaming and roasting on your butt. Hey!! God comes down in his loving mercy and says’ “Surprise” today we turn you over on the other side.

There is a Christian radio station called “Vision” radio. They have movie reviews and give family friendly points as to what movies are suitable for christian viewing.

My God how opinions change over the years! What is happening to all those damned christian movie goers in hell now. Is the new relaxed legislation retrospective??

I suggest a good old cup of tea and a good lie down.

I suggest we do an in depth study in 1 John. We do not find any of the myriad of theological nuances to which me must sign off on. Basically the issue was: did we accept that Christ came in the flesh. The opposing view was Cerinthian Gnostisism, Look it up.

This was followed by a code of moral good behaviour. Finally a love for the Brethren was the requirement. Can a christian claim to be walking the faith journey and be isolated from and dislike commununion with other christians??? There’s a little point to ponder.

I’ve seen people who were involved in these “Barking Mad Behaviour” congregations simply get worn out and move on.

They do not enter into a great theological mind fest they end up in an Anglican church or a Baptist congregation or such.

I don’t think personally that all these “New” carrying one’s are that big a deal. I’ve seen them all in the past. They were on the go back in the 1950’s and early 1960’s.
I still have friends from this era and they are all still quite sane. Some have their own businesses, others including myself went on to study theology and ministry training. Others wandered away from the faith completely.

I am not aware of anyone capping themselves over it all.

Some time old friends come and visit; we knock back a few Merlot’s in front of the fire and have jolly old laugh about the old days.
Reminiscing is a good and healthy thing to do. we’ve all grown up and grown wiser I think.

I am of the opinion that people can be too precious about things. It is like they are ready to pounce at any and all nuance of thought and damned it with an intensity that just doesn’t balance.

I think some of you would welcome the “Stake” reinstalled. I feel that some of you would weep tears of joy just to given he honoured job of pilling up the fagots.

I get an impression that our salvation is held in a rather tenuous position by a very mentally unstable god.
It is though you can be doing you best: but fail over some vague theological nuance that you probably can’t get your head around anyway. However the God presented does not take that into account and so bingo!! 20 million years screaming in agony frying your butt. At least some relief will come when we get turned over on the other side.

By the way bible scholars just on that note; there is no mention or usage of the term Hell found any where at all in the scripture.
That should throw the cat among the pigeons.
Well I am happy to respond to that as time and health allow.

Man is the only religious animal. In his quest to smooth his brothers path to heaven he has turned the world into a blood bath. Mark Twain loosely quoted from memory.

God Bless you all.

Brother Kevin.

By Kevin on Jun 1, 2011

The word “heaven” appears in the Bible over 550 times. If “hell” is the fate of those who do not accept Jesus as their Lord, how often do you think God should put it in the Bible Scriptures warning all the people of the world the consequences of failing to accept Jesus as their Savior? Thousands of times? At least as many times as the word “heaven”? At least once in each book in the Bible? The facts may shock you.

Number of times “Hell” appears in the text in English Bible Translations
Bible Translations
Old Testament
New Testament
Total
“Authorized” King James Version * 31 23 54
New King James Version * 19 13 32
New International Version 0 14 14

By wayne on Jun 1, 2011

There is an enormous amount of material available to you if you want to acquaint yourself with the nature of the apostasy sweeping through the churches at this time in history.

Rather than try to explain it all to you on this blog I urge you to google articles such as:

“Anointing or Apostasy = The Legacy of the Latter Rain” by Charles Graves.

Why is Latter Rain, Dominionism, and Kingdom Now Theology False? provides a veritable minefield of information.

http://www.erwm.com/Latter%20Rain.htm

By wayne on Jun 1, 2011

There is NO vague theological nuance here.

Quite apart from the commitment to occultic and New Age teachings and practices which are forbidden outright by God this Latter Rain stuff is outright disobedience on a par with the disobedience demonstrated by Adam and Eve, Cain Saul et al throughout the bible.

Obedience is better than sacrifice.

God requires faithfulness to HIS WORD.

By Wayne on Jun 2, 2011

Dear Wayne thank you for your kind reply.
I am familiar with the enormous amount of information concerning the “Latter Rain” ideas.

This viewpoint has been around for a very long time.

I attended some of these meetings over 45 years ago in NZ. The issues today are simply a natural progression of the very old movement.

Rev Offiler’s work (1946) Page 116 on, gives a break down on the thoeological ideas this movement holds. Nothing has changed and as I stated their fundamental view is “Restoration” and “Revival”. We need both restoration and revival I am sure you would agree. The controversy is about how and what form that might take.

I have said it before: I am not part of that movement at all but have had experience with it in the past. I am part of the Anglican Community and am a hopelessly failed penticostal.

Some would suggest Anglicans have their own issues as well. Yes, you would be right on that score: but at the end of the day it is a faith community in which I have been able to find unhindered expression and support. I can enjoy a drop of wine without being condemned. I am invited to perform my music regularly. I can voice my sometimes controversial opinions without condemnation. This is what a faith community is all about.

I sit somewhere between the intolerance of evangelicanism and the traditions of high church practise. My view is that some faith systems can be quite oppressive and damaging. In fact the freedom of the good news or Gospel seems rather remote. Hopefully people wake up sooner or later. This has been what I have observed with many of my own friends.

I think quiet and civil discussion over hospitality is a great way to do this. My good wife and I have hosted many BBQ’s and the guests have varied from one eyed evangelicals, baptists, penticostals, progressive liberals, free-range “eggs”, roll-your-own house church-ers, to serious mind boggling academic theologians. Just to sit back and watch it all happen is quite an event. However all have come to appreciate where one another was coming from; and there may be a lot more to the picture. Life in the faith journey is not all black and white!!

God Bless you all.
Brother Kevin.

By Brother Kevin on Jun 2, 2011

Thank you Kevin. This evil Latter Rain nonsense was rejected by a Godly and bible based AoG as far back as 1948. Sadly, however, they have succumbed to the wiles of the devil and now embrace it.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

I might add that the love of worldly fame and popularity may well lead down the same pathway.

I agree with being civil with all men and women of all faiths everywhere and with living in peace wherever possible.

However in spiritual matters the bible clearly says of the apostate church that the faithful born again believer committed to HIS Word must:

Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you - 2nd Corinthians 6: 17 (NKJV).

As I am fortunate enough to have a very solid grounding in the Word of God following a genuine born a gain experience I am absolutely convinced that God HIMSELF intended TRUE faith to be BLACK AND WHITE and that is why HE gave us the BIBLE and painted such a clear picture of the reward for obedience and of the penalty for disobedience to HIS WORD.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Tne BIBLE is full of warnings urging HIS people to remain faithful to HIS Word. That is quite possibly its major purpose.

As mere mortals we do not have the option to decide that “every man may do whatever seems right in his own eyes” as that is what OT Israel did before being subjected to the judgement of God and is painfully consistent with the Latter Rain ideas of apotheosis.

How dare these Latter Rain “anointed ones” suggest we follow them without question.

Clearly God created man for HIS purposes and NOT the reverse as your laissez faire approach to theological conflict might suggest.

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

By Wayne on Jun 2, 2011

Talking about heaven, as we were…
I must admit I’m looking forward to heaven. No more chronic back pain - wow! One of the first things I’d like to do is find a nice quiet spot and spend an afternoon with the apostle Paul and a beer, a biro, a notebook, and a Bible, and sort out some of his hard sayings. So many conflicts in ‘the faithful remnant’ touch on what we do with Women, Wine and Water. And others emerge with Reverends, Rituals and Real Estate (thanks Bro Kevin) - while someone a couple of years ago pointed to another trio of Temples, Titles and Tithes. No doubt someone like this great thinker will be able to satisfy my various unanswered questions, and if he’s too busy Brother Calvin would be valued. I’d have to pass by cigar-smoking Brother Spurgeon, though, as I don’t inhale - and he’d be more than worthwhile to hear in a forum.
Life unlimited lived in the very presence of God - hallelujah.

By Paul on Jun 3, 2011

A false prophet is named as such because he is a liar.
Micah 2:11 If a liar and deceiver comes and says, ’I will prophesy for you plenty of wine and beer,’ he would be just the prophet for this people!
It is interesting that people love to hear the prophecies of false prophets because they prophesy the things people want to hear.

Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Those who prophesy falsely have abandoned the Faith (if they ever were a part of it to begin with) and follow deceiving spirits. They have no conscience about lying and telling people they have heard from God when they have not.

1 Tim. 4:1-2 The Spirit clearly says that in latter times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
False prophets are liars, thus they are destined to hell unless they repent.
You cannot lie in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and expect to not suffer judgment. Notice what the Bible lists last in a list of sins that will send people to hell, professing Christians or no.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

By Anonymous on Jun 3, 2011

Anonymous, one can’t help wonder if my enjoyment of the occasional beer or Brother Kevin’s enjoyment of a Merlot, has brought on this out of context quotation from the prophet Micah.
.
There are numerous passages validating the use of strong drink by God’s people, even at the yearly festivals before the LORD in the Old Covenant era. I suppose I could copy and paste them here, after the fashion of another contributor, but there’s no virtue in sledge-hammering another human on a point of view.
.
To be a teetotaller in the New Covenant era is to be supraBiblical, but I don’t object to it. Nor do I name-call those who (falsely) preach against all strong drink use. We are NEVER to misuse these God-given provisions.
.
May the LORD bless you.

By Paul, a small potato on Jun 5, 2011

So what thoughts are there here about that church started by a murderer, Henry VIII, ruled over and favoured by non-believing governments, practising paedocommunion and paedobaptism, and whose ministers all walk around in dresses????

By a smaller potato on Jun 5, 2011

Smaller potato:

The Bible has the same position on ALL dodgy unbiblical antibiblical and extrabiblical religion.

FOR EXAMPLE

Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Those who prophesy falsely have abandoned the Faith (if they ever were a part of it to begin with) and follow deceiving spirits. They have no conscience about lying and telling people they have heard from God when they have not.

1 Tim. 4:1-2 The Spirit clearly says that in latter times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Only the living water that Christ gives will satisfy.

Remember what He told the woman at the well:

“Whosoever drinketh this water shall thirst again, but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life” (John 4:13-14).

The wells of living water are found along the OLD paths of righteousness, and not on the superhighways of compromise.

Thus saith the LORD,

Stand ye in the ways, and see, ask for the OLD paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls…..” Jeremiah 6:16

“Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set” Proverbs 22:28

FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD IS WHAT GOD REQUIRES

By Wayne on Jun 5, 2011

As Henry V111 did centuries ago, many in the church today, including many preachers, have abandoned the fountain of living waters and created their own brand of Christianity — a form of Christianity that is perverse, pernicious and powerless, but profitable.

Today the church needs to “dig again the wells” that our spiritual fathers drank from.

We need to ignore or abandon the new sources of revelation and wisdom and return again unto the Source of every good and perfect gift. We need to return to the God of our fathers. We need to drink deeply of the water from Christ’s well.

We must walk the OLD paths the biblical paths once again if we are to find the life-giving Oasis that is Jesus Christ. We must abandon twenty-first century Christianity in favor of first century Christianity.

As straight and as narrow as they may be, we must walk the OLD paths.

By Wayne on Jun 5, 2011

Hello All.

My good friends thank you for your vigorous replies. The “over view” on the “Latter Rain” teaching was intended to be just that; a brief over view. It was it fact intended to address a query presented by Mr. Potato. Also it should have gone under the headings in “Faithful remnant” and so on.
I took Mr. Anon’s advice and looked at the recommended sites on the “Latter Rain” teaching. Thank you for that. However there was absolutely nothing new there for me to discover at all. The explanation I have given is utterly correct and none of the associated latter rain behaviour or theology is new to me.

I refer you to an old book; “God and his Bible or the Harmonies of Divine Revelation” by Rev. W. H. Offiler. This work was published by Bethel Temple Seattle in 1946. If you can obtain a copy read from pages 116 on.
What I stated is precisely what the deal is all about.
The nut of the whole “Later Rain” movement is about “Restoration” and “Revival”.

The point I make is that this stuff has been going on for a long time now. I would have been about 13 years of age when I attended some of these meetings in NZ. The behaviours and beliefs today are a progression of what went before.
I had relatives who were vitally involved in this movement.
Some even preached and ministered in it.
Well today they like me are part of the Anglican or Baptist Communities. One of my relatives now being a Baptist vicar.
The “entire” concept is a restoring to the church the authority, wonders, miracles, spiritual manifestations and such.

And no there is no dodging; and yes I do not offer screeds of scriptures to support my position: for one I have no position to support. I believe quite powerfully that people have a right to their opinions. God in heaven we’ve had world bloody wars over this. I do not mind at all if people believe our Lord to be a reincarnated woodpecker. We will never convince people through confrontation. By your love one to another is the key. Secondly I am not submitting a paper for an exam: I’ve done all that in the past at theological college. This is a “blog” or “forum” of exchange of Christian ideas and I respond mostly from memory and my own and others experiences. I hope that the discussions will encourage your own personal journey into research and consideration of other ideas.

I will assure you though that some things are quite obvious and many things are not Black and White!! I accept that in the faith journey there are many shades of colour.
Look about you now that it is autumn. We live down in the rural Snowy Mountains: the turning colours of the trees and the tertiary colour palate of God’s art work is a continual joy and wonder to me. I am afraid I cannot see one black or white thing on display. The Hymn “How Great Thou Art” springs to mind. I can almost hear old Geo. Bev Shay at the top of his voice.

If you met me face to face you would soon appreciate that dodging and avoiding are not part of my character. You would be welcomed and treated with hospitality. You would be invited to sample some of my fine wines and my wife’s good meals in the country air. We would even play our instruments for you and sing some Taize chant and few good Irish Jigs.

Your views would be accepted with fairness, understanding that you have a right to your beliefs, opinions and views.
Thank God you have an opinion: so many people do not in fact have any idea at all!!

Some Christians are viciously opposed to any differing views and I find this a great sadness really. I am of the nature that I welcome discussion and do not mind a different opinion at all. In fact I find it a great joy to hear other points of view. There is so much we can learn and gain from others if we adopt a more magnanimous approach to life.

One good thing about a site such as this is that it provides a forum for serious Christian thought. I must add that a person’s theological view does not present a person as being morally bankrupt or virtuous for that matter. I do not support Romanism but I’ve met some of the kindest and self sacrificing persons in this journey. Their flawed theology does not make them contemptible human beings.

I have found that the “Image of God” one holds as concept has a very real effect on ones behaviour. If you subscribe to the “Angry God” theory then I find it tends to out work its self in an arrogant self righteous intolerant life view.

By and large Christians hold differing views about many things: Birth control, Climate change, Eco sustainability, new challenges of Science/Ethics and so on. Many of these issues were not around 2000 years ago. The Roman church discusses these issues and provides a “Proscriptive” position for its faithful. The Protestant church leaves us out in the cold to tear each other apart over who is closest to reflecting God’s personal viewpoint. Sad really.

I had a time of recent illness in which I was hospitalised and unable to work. I was assisted generously by a Romanist!! They contributed some thousands of dollars to get me through. My Pentecostal friends were not so forth coming, That’s OK too.

Things have improved and I am now retired to my studies and my music. I occasionally lecture and play at concerts. I am moving more toward my music writing now. I have grown weary I think of all the theological bickering. I find that expressing myself through my music touches people. I like that and I feel I am doing a good thing: this cannot be said of theology. The same old battles are still raging with white hot intensity.

The point I make is “HOW DO LIVE, HOW DO YOU TREAT OTHER PEOPLE?”

I must state that I am not an adherent of the “Latter Rain” theological theories.
I personally do not discard friends on the basis a theological nuance and vagaries; quite frankly I do not really mind what people wish to believe. I will always be ready to engage in a civil dialogue however. Some times this is profitable, some times not.

As to the issue on Hell.
I am aware that the word Hell appears in the English translation of the KJV. I think any one would know that.
Hell is a proper noun. Read these texts in the Greek or refer to say the Holman Christian Standard version. Even the new “Recovery Version” is a reliable literal text and does not fiddle about with the language. Yes I know that the footnotes via Wittness Lee are in some cases valuable and in some cases his opinion; but the biblical translation is good. The basic Hebrew and Greek texts are precisely the same as the NASB, The NLT, The Holman CSB. So no need for any heart palpitations there.
The famous old classic Dake’s Annotated Bible is jammed full of “Dispensationalist” ideas just like the “Recovery Version”. In fact Dake’s bible also contains excerpts from the Clarence Larkin Manual of Dispensational Truth. This is a marvellous old classic. I have a very old copy in my library; I have it as I have an interest in collecting old works.

These versions do not change the proper nouns. Hell has Nordic roots. It has to do with the underworld in Nordic Mythology. I am sure you will be able to research this for your self. In fact in 1885 there was a disagreement between the English and American committee over the transliteration of the English word Hell to cover the Hebrew and Greek words.
Various words such as “Pit’, “Grave”, “Sheol”, “Hades”, “The Valley of the son of Hinnom” and “Tatarus” all being rendered as Hell. The 1901 ASV moved from this position and supplied foot notes and a greater clarity on these matters. This information is known and freely available. Obtain a copy of the Logos 1901 ASV with the Variorum Textural footnotes if you can. You could get a second hand one on line but be prepared to pay very handsomely for it. This translation was considered “The Rock of Biblical Integrity” by those who know. I was presented with my copy and Greek NT by the NZ Apostolic Church Council for services rendered in 1973.

I fact any child at school in 6th class will be studying ancient cultures and so on. I know this as I worked in a school and saw the lovely illustrated books.
Helli is the hot pert breasted babe with the rotting lower torso. The goddess of the underworld. Helmut or the Hel= to cover: the Mut=head.
Old English usage helling= thatching or covering the roof. Helling of potatoes= covering the spuds for the winter.
This word has bled through into the English vernacular as to “cover” the dead body; hence gone to hell.
However there are different words in usage in both the Hebrew and the Greek that do not correspond to Nordic after life mythologies.

Look up 2 Peter 2:4 the word hell in the KJV is a gross mistranslation. The word here is Tatarus. What is tatarus? And why did Peter use this term? I will leave that for your own research on this. “Myths of Crete and Pre-Hellenistic Europe” D. A. MacKenzie.
“Classic Myth and Legend” A.R.H. Moncrieff. “Myths of Babylonia and Assyria” D.A. Mackenzie. Nordic Myth and Legend. The Poet Milton, his “Paradise Lost”.
The Dore Etchings: it would appear that the movie “What Dreams are These?” was influenced by the Dore illustrations. Review the Italian writer Dante’s work. After reviewing these suggested sources tell me what connection if any they have to do with say the theology expressed in Job. Or for that matter any of the Pre Hellenistic Biblical texts??

The story about Dives and Lazarus. Refer to Josephus’s debate with the greeks concerning Hades. Also the Onkylon Talmud. You will find that this existing popular story was used by our Lord as a warning to his people the Jews to reform. I doubt that it can be taken literally for many reasons. Much of the teaching in scripture is described in “Figures of Speech” refer to Bullinger’s monumental work on this.
We can see Jesus using “hyperbole” when he tells the disciples that faith can move the temple mount into the Sea of Galilee. The moral of the story is that if our faith is very small, Our Lord can still use that. To take this story literally is OK by me; but I’ve yet to see anything remotely like it.

In fact there is a mention in the NT that states that Jesus was using a “Figure of Speech”. Look it up. The ancient texts of the OT and NT did not use punctuation as we do.
Figures of Speech were used freely. This gave context to the meaning and placement of the text. However I am sure you are aware of these points anyway. If one attends theological college then these subjects would be pretty much par for the course.
The literary, form and structure of Biblical writing would be one of the basic studies.

This should not be interpreted as “Unbelieving Liberalism” in any way at all: rather an effort to greater appreciate an ancient work in old and foreign language.
The act of translating this book into English is a some what monumental task. Some of the English renderings differ slightly, especially in the use of Proper Nouns.

If you take this existing Jewish/Hellenistic story literally you will be juggling some pre Hellenistic ideas that are simply not presented in Job.
See what Job has to say about the state of the lot of man at death. Job was written around the time of Homers Iliad and Odyssey. There was no cross pollination of afterlife theologies at this point in history. We wait until the He-Goat of Daniel for this: Alexander the Great and the subsequent bleed through of Greek philosophy tainting Jewish popular philosophical ideas. Anyway I hope this is helpful.

We need to trust God. He is building his church no matter what is going on around us.
Yes people are still coming to the faith journey in Christ. And yes we need to speak the truth in love when ever the opportunities arise.

God bless you all.
Brother Kevin

By Anonymous on Jun 5, 2011

Hmmm…………hot potato, hot potato !

By Paul, a small potato on Jun 6, 2011

FALSE TEACHING IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE FALSE TEACHING. THE BIBLE IS PROVIDED FOR THOSE HUMBLY SUBMITTED TO HIS WORD AS THE SOLE BASIS FOR KNOWING HOW TO LIVE A LIFE PLEASING TO HIM.

As mere mortals we are forbidden from tampering with the clear instructions of the Word of God in any way.

Matthew 24:24, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”

When we take the context of the chapter, we can see that Jesus is warning everyone to be on guard and not be deceived by those who “come in His Name (christians), saying He is Christ (teaching that Jesus is Christ) and deceiving many.

He then gives quite a number of ways for us to NOT be deceived.

Matthew 24:
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)?
4 ¶ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you(or spirit being for that matter).
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (Many will preach that Jesus is the Christ.)
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. (The beginning of the Great Tribulation).
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”

The way of God is foolishness to the people of this society, and God says the ways of this society are foolishness to Him.

This foolishness to the people of the world is the cross NOT the occultic silliness which many religious people seem to want to go on with. God has never asked us to have faith in anything that was silly and without a rational and logical foundation.

When we “glory in men”, we begin to deceive ourselves.
When we place our total trust in men whether they seem to be preachers of righteousness or not, we are deceiving ourselves.

The word ‘deceive’ in the above scriptures is from the Greek word that means “to deceive.” It is not the same word that is translated ‘deceive’ in other scriptures that caution us about someone who is trying to deceive or seduce us to believe what they want us to believe. That word means deluding or seducing to draw us away from the path of God.
I Cor. 3:
18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool (let him reject worldly wisdom and accept Godly wisdom), that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21 ¶ Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

Who are the elect? Part of that answer is shown in Isaiah.

Isa 45:4 “For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isa 65:9 “And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isa 65:22 “They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

This shows that all the children of Israel (Jacob) were chosen by God as His Elect. They were chosen to be an example to the rest of the world as to how God’s Blessing caused a nation to prosper and grow. They weren’t chosen because they were the smartest, most handsome, or greatest. They were chosen because they were the least of all the nations (I Cor. 1:26-30). God intended to show His greatness by blessing the nation of Israel to cause the rest of the world to desire those blessings and turn to God.

As has been said, there is a duality in the Scriptures pertaining to many things. Duality is also shown in the scriptures about Israel. There is a physical Israel (all twelve tribes), and there is a spiritual Israel composed of Spirit Begotten people who believe God and Jesus and accept Jesus as their saviour.

Those are mentioned in Matthew 24:22:

“And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

These are spiritual Israel as shown in the following verse.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There will, of course, be those of the tribes of Israel that have not made a commitment to follow Christ. These will NOT be in that gathering of the First Fruits. Only those who are truly Christian will be in that resurrection. Everyone else will either be dead, captive, or live on over into the Millennium.

Now, what about this group called “the very elect?”

The word elect is ‘eklektos’ meaning chosen by God to obtain salvation through Christ. That word means the best of its kind or class, excellence, preeminence: applied to certain individual Christians.

There you have the definition of the physical elect, and the spiritual elect.

The elect were chosen by God to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ whenever they would repent and turn to Him as their saviour. Those who repented and turned to Him are described as the best of its kind or class, excellence, preeminence. It is also applied to certain individual Christians.

There is the distinct possibility that within the elect is a group of certain individual Christians that are referred to as the very elect. That is also implied in I Cor. 11:

19 For there must be also heresies (unbiblical, anti biblical or super biblical teachings) among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest (shown openly) among you.

I don’t know if there is a “very elect”. It seems to be implied in several places, but I can’t stand up and definitely say “yes, there is a very elect.”

If this verse is referring to a “very elect” it is also saying that they can’t be deceived about FALSE CHRISTS AND FALSE PROPHETS. It DOES NOT SAY they can’t be deceived about other things, since we know the scriptures show the whole world has been deceived and that the church has been subject to deception.

What everyone should do is KEEP THEIR NOSE IN GOD’S WORD and believe the Gospel!!!

When we know the scriptures, and understand them through the power of God’s Holy Spirit, we won’t be deceived about the salvational points of His Word.

If there is such a group we need to strive to be in it! It should cause one to stop and think, asking themselves “Am I really grounded in the Word of God? Could Satan take away my crown?”

It is possible, you know. The scriptures in Revelation 2 and 3 show there are people who are “holding on to what they have.” There are also others who are doing the commission Christ gave us to do and producing fruit from our labors. This, of course, implies that there are others who are being deceived and could lose their crown (position in God’s Family).

Let’s pray we are a part of the “very elect” (if that group exists). Let’s hold on to what we have and go forward preaching and teaching the True Gospel to this world!

By Wayne on Jun 6, 2011

Wayne,
If I recall correctly, you said at some point that your daughter [Amanda ‘Potato’ I believe she calls herself above] had earned her degree at the Catholic University here in Brisbane. Given your strong views of the Catholic church as a cult, or even as “Babylon”, why then did you support her to subject herself to such teachings rather than get her into a ‘Christian’ college?

By Paul, a small potato on Jun 9, 2011

BTW some Bible scholars see the apostle John speaking about Jerusalem [and therefore Judaism] when he refers to Babylon in his Apocalypse of Jesus. Their final rejection of Christ Jesus caused ‘Israel after the flesh’ to be finally rejected as an elect nation by God. It’s a view that is not without merit.

By Paul, a small potato on Jun 9, 2011

Amanda went to ACU for the academic content only but was force fed the Roman Catholic position on the Bible as being a book of myths and legends wholly subject to the teachings and traditions of the Roman Catholic church.

Those particular comments you refer to were made to confirm that the Roman Catholic church is still the same un biblical anti biblical popery based organization as it has ever been and is a very significant player in the False One World church bible believing and honouring christians are very much aware of and consciously avoiding in accordance with the clear teachings and warnings of the Bible itself.

Ignatius Loyola was the founder of the Order of the Jesuits in the Catholic Church.

The Jesuit goal is to turn the inerrant Word of God into the word of man while at the same time promoting the word of the pope as the word of God. As Satan did successfully with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden the Jesuits like to suggest that the teachings of the bible are not clear or are too difficult to understand.

In addition, the Jesuit ambition is to bring the “lost brethren” back to the “Mother” church (read Another Jesus).

This is no minor thing. I have spoken with bible honouring christians who have been to the city of Rome and seen the multitudes worship and adore a man (the Pope) who carries a wafer and a vial of juice that is supposed to be Jesus.

Martyrs in earlier centuries were murdered for rejecting the papacy and the Eucharist.

Today, I am horrified to watch once Bible-believing pastors turn their hearts and their congregations toward Rome, often through a Jesuit influence.

Instances of this are occurring more and more every day and are a direct result of this demonic nonsense referred to as Latter Rain which has a strong ecumenical content.

By Wayne on Jun 9, 2011

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

True discernment MUST be based on The Word of God ALONE..

There are many books today that claim to be the Word of God. The Koran, the Islam holy book, claims to be the Word of God. The Book of Mormon claims to be the Word of God. The Hindus believe the Bhagavad Vita is the source of eternal truth. Karl Marx, with his atheistic world view, claimed his writing, The Communist Manifesto, was the ultimate truth. Hitler had his Mein Kampf read religiously and this contributed significantly to the fanaticism of Nazi Germany.

A former Pastor of mine responsible for bringing Latter Rain and New Age heresies into the church my family grew up in even claimed that he did not “care about bible doctrine, I only care about my anointing.”

We Christians, however, believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the eternal source of truth we live and indeed die by.

By Wayne on Jun 9, 2011

Wayne, as there is a moderating-delay on all these comments nowdays I don’t know if you’ve made any extra comment since mine just above here… but here goes a bit more from me..
.
Seems to me that there would have been a real conflict between the so-called “whore of Babylon” teachings and your family’s beliefs. How did you reconcile your involvement, therefore, with Australian Catholic University (as sister Amanda Potato did state she included their theology in her studies)? Did you feel that you were all condemned during that time of receiving the advantage of higher education from “the whore”? Did you email the University with your warnings, I wonder. Perhaps you walked through the campus with Bible in hand, preaching the warnings? Or are you only doing these warnings here on the CWM site?
How do you reconcile these conflicting actions, brother?

By Paul, a small potato on Jun 10, 2011

Paul, I see NO difference whatsoever between the FALSE theology of the Roman Catholic church and the humanistic atheistic philosophies of the alternate state run institutions of higher learning in terms of their eternal influences.

FALSE RELIGION IS THE SAME AS NO RELIGION AT ALL. The Roman Catholic church is a false cult which has consistently refused to allow the Word of God to influence its teachings in any way. Martyrs have been murdered throughout history because of their efforts to warn deluded Roman Catholics of their need to comply with the simple and very clear teachings of scripture and their refusal to worship the Pope.

Amanda went to ACU purely to gain a qualification which is recognised by the state and because it was conveniently located.

As the psalmist turns to the temple to worship he writes in Ps. 138:2: “For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.”

God’s Word is His communication, His promise, the revelation of Himself to His people. It is to be a lamp to our feet in a dark and fallen world, without it we would have no way to know God or how to do God’s will.

Throughout scripture we have a consistent theme of the dichotomy of light versus darkness.

The world we live in is darkness reserved for judgment.

John the apostle in 1 John 1:5 tells us God is light. Light is God’s very nature, it represents to us Holiness and perfection. This is why we often read that a physical manifestation of God ‘s glory is light or fire. Sin is associated with darkness and judgment. It implies imperfection, and principally ignorance, sinfulness, and misery.

The Psalmist asks Ps 119:9 “How can a young man cleanse his way? He answers, “By taking heed according to Your Word. Just a few more verses later v:11 “Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.” God’s word keeps us from sin and keeps us on his path, as the Word is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path (Ps.119:105) in a dark world.

Ps. 43:3 Oh, send out Your light and Your truth! Let them lead me. s one reads the psalms one grasps the importance of the Word to the the people of Israel, especially the leaders.

To disregard God’s Word that is holy, pure and absolutely true is to defame God’s name and character. It is to bring ruin upon our walk. So it becomes the main focus point in our daily walk with Christ.

Jesus in his high priestly prayer, (the only one we have details on) says in John 17:6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.” Those who want to follow Jesus live by His Word, which separates them from the World, and sets them apart for His service. Jesus said that the words he spoke were not just his but the Fathers also. “For You have magnified Your word above all Your name” (Ps. 138:2). If Jesus manifested God’s name, His nature to the people, how much more important is his Word that is exalted even above his name?

God has delivered to us all that is needed. The Bible says the Scripture is sufficient in all matters for the believers spiritual life, there is no need to go anywhere else to learn how to be spiritual. “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” (2 Tim.3:16-17). The doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures and its priority in all matters of faith is one of the core teachings of the Christian faith.

By Wayne on Jun 10, 2011

Thanks mate. The Christian Heritage College offers teacher training too, if not others, and they have a high view of the Scriptures, so I was actually wondering why not have studied there? 1 Peter 1:22-24.

By Paul, a small potato on Jun 11, 2011

Attending their University provided many logistical difficulties for us in terms of actually getting her to the institution.

I have also witnessed and been personally exposed a very disappointing level of spiritual pride at these sort of places which has caused me to be somewhat wary of having much contact with them anyway.

This wariness has of course been particularly acute in view of my realization of the extent of the pentecostal/charismatic apostasy in these ‘last days.”

By Wayne on Jun 11, 2011

Fantastic blog you have here but I was curious if you knew of any user discussion forums that cover the same topics discussed in this article? I’d really like to be a part of community where I can get feed-back from other knowledgeable people that share the same interest. If you have any recommendations, please let me know. Thanks!

By Royce Bez on Jun 21, 2011

Hello Royce,
welcome.

I also stumbled upon this blog and yes I think it’s a fantastic forum also.
The people who write in are very well informed and quite passionate about their faith journey.

This is a wonderfull thing I think.

We do not appear to see eye to eye on all matters but so what.
Come then let us reason together in our journey to the Kingdom.

God Bless us all,
Brother Kevin

By Brother Kevin on Jun 23, 2011

Hello Royce, clearly we are in the midst of wholesale apostasy.

There is an enormous amount of material available to you if you want to acquaint yourself with the nature of the apostasy sweeping through the churches at this time in history.

Rather than try to explain it all to you on this blog I urge you to google articles such as:

“Anointing or Apostasy = The Legacy of the Latter Rain” by Charles Graves.

Why is Latter Rain, Dominionism, and Kingdom Now Theology False? provides a veritable minefield of information.

http://www.erwm.com/Latter%20Rain.htm

By Wayne on Jun 24, 2011

This widespread apostasy is, of course, merely fulfillment of Bible prophesy such as in

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Clearly the answer for those who wish to remain faithful is to follow the warnings of scripture contained in passages such as

2nd Corinthians 6: 17 (NKJV)

Come out from among them ( these apostate Latter Rain churches) And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you -

By Wayne on Jun 24, 2011

Hello All.

Dear Wayne, it would appear that 2 Cor 6:17 would be your favourite verse. “Come out from among them and be separate says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you.”
The text goes on to show that God will be a father to us and we will be his sons and daughters.
You appear to interpret this verse to mean the “Latter Rain” theological school of opinion specifically; and anything else that doesn’t fit your theological view point.
You have stated previously that “wrong doctrine produces wrong living”. I am assuming you mean loose morals and dishonest behaviour. It is a bit hard to understand much of what you mean as your descriptions come via streams of biblical texts without discussion or context. You must have one of those cut and paste electronic bible verse programmes??

The portion in 2 Cor 6:17 is a quote originating in the great “Restoration” poems in Isaiah. This passage continues and recites the mighty prophecy of hope. “Who has believed our report”, and so on; the prophecy of Christ the suffering servant. This passage must be as familiar to many as the Lord’s Prayer.

The passages in Isaiah refer to the good King Cyrus who let the Hebrew people go back to their home land to re-establish their temple. They are free to leave Babylon.
The texts begin with the mention of “circumcision” now there’s an interesting diversion and an “unhindered” restoring of the Hebrew way of life. The Temple and Priestly life can proceed again freely. The “coming out” is being free again to live as a “covenant community” before God.
They were not to live as the surrounding nations nor emulate their life styles of Pagan and immoral practice. This is in fact what the passage in Corinthians is reflecting. I stated in a previous correspondence that the Corinthian social lifestyle and behaviour was quite at odds with the requirements of the Jewish/Christian ethos.
A study into ancient Greek/Corinthian religious social life would reveal these practises quite clearly.
Even pottery from this period depicts what we today would class as paedophilia; however this appeared to be “normal” back then. Such was the incompatible decadence of ancient Greek/Corinth.
A study into ancient artefacts and mosaics would provide further extant evidence of this.
The wine drinker mosaics honouring Dionysus and so on. There is plenty of ancient support as to how they lived both documentary and archaeological.

The references in Corinthians are all ways about not living as those do around us.
The idea that the differing theological view points constitute the “Unclean Thing” is a bit stretched I fancy.
We cannot seriously suggest that a Dispensationalist or a Premillennialist is about to be cast into Tutarus along with the Titans in their failed bid against our Father God Zeus!!
About 20 years ago the “Shrill” condemnation of “speaking in tongues” was condemned as satanic and something to “Come out of”. Healing ministries were considered healing by the power of a loving and kind Devil or Satan. Thank God we got over that one. Jesus made some comments to this effect about Satan casting himself out; and a divided kingdom. Now the Pentecostal tongues speakers have; Ritual, Real Estate and Riches we’ve all calmed down. We now court their opinion and favour.

As to a differing theological view point than yours constituting moral collapse; nothing could be further from the truth.
Many Roman Catholics would put us to shame in their devotion and piety. I have seen many who are quite self sacrificing and generous in their community. I recently performed for a Catholic Seniors Dinner; the people were wonderful, generous and kind people. They were raising funds for the restoration of the school chapel. I was pleased to be able to contribute to this project.

A chapel is a place of prayer and contemplation, our good Lord hears ALL who come to him in the prayer of faith. I was delighted that my musical talents could assist to that end.

Primitive Christian doctrine was a belief that Christ had come in the “Flesh” as opposed to him being a phantom or some other product of early Gnostic gymnastics. Compare 1 John and so on.

I stated previously that people are in many denominations all with differing theological nuance and ritual. This does not preclude them from God’s grace. Accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord is the only prerequisite by faith. The rest is a faith journey over time. This like Abraham involves a journey of a life time, attendant with our failures, victories, brokenness, times of utter despair and illness.

I am not a Calvinist, yet I have his works on my shelf. He seemed intolerant, and was responsible for having his dissenters burned I believe. Should I be guided by a man like that???
His Institutes I find valuable however, they keep the back door from blowing shut while I fetch wood for the fire. Does this mean I shall go to meet Cerberus the three headed dog in Hades and pay to cross the River Styx???

Secret Raptures and so on, will these cause us to contend with the Hot Babes of Hades; the Furies??
The passage in 2 Corinthians cannot be referring to the vile “Latter Rain” spiritual pornography as this theological nuance was not even established as a “ritual” at that time. By the way you have still not provided a clear outline of this theology, I have.

Granted the babblings could be compared to the ranting of the Delphic Oracles or even the goings on in the temple of Alscepius.

I may have “over stated” the point; but I believe our salvation lies in our faith in Christ alone. We are to live in a “manner” worthy of our calling. This I would take to be outlined and outlived by St.Paul’s comment’s in Philippians 4:8; the “what soever things” stanza.

We need to appreciate that the World of Christendom agrees on nothing at all. My question is: What if you were a medieval plough-man? You would have been slammed into history in a time not of your choosing. If you could not read or write and had only a simplistic view of faith how would that hold you for eternity?
You see we all have the same gate to enter: faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and that alone. He will attend us, he is the author and completer of our faith journey and nothing else.

We may not agree with all you say Wayne and that will not consign us to a paddle down the River Styx and an eternity in the Greek underworld of Hades.

If we really want to know the correct church practise and ritual I suggest a visit to Antioch. The Antioch church was the first Christian church. The Antiochian order is still in operation today!!

Their ritual would seem more like an Eastern Orthodox, High Anglo/Catholic service. And yes the early church was liturgical much to the dismay of many a free-range Pentecostal. Chant and so on was the norm.

Well I shall be off and have a coffee I think.

God Bless us all.
Brother Kevin

By Brother Kevin on Jun 24, 2011

Brother Kevin,

What, what, what??? Using Brother Calvin’s Institutes as doorstops? TUT, TUT, TUT. They desrve a much higher place on your bookshelf!!! Try alongside the phonebook - where all the often-used books have a home.

His insight was marvelous - and his understanding of the sovereignty of the majestic triune Godhead has helped me immeasurably as I have traversed the jagged pathway and the difficult passages of Christian scripture - it is a privilege to be mentored by his insights. (And he certainly was NOT “responsible for having his dissenters burned”.)

By Paul, a small potato on Jun 25, 2011

There are many other verses that I am very careful to apply to my life and to recommend wholeheartedly to others as well Kevin.

Have a look at this one, for example,

“And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.’” (Rev 18:4 NKJV)

My only hope in writing is that some will read it, heed it, and come out of these Latter Rain
revivals.
There is no “new paradigm” as far as Christianity is concerned, just the same old narrow road that leads to eternal life in Christ. No immortality or streets of gold on this side of heaven. Just the truth. The
Way, the Truth, and the Life - and that “old rugged cross”.
It comes as no surprise that we are in the midst of a terrible apostasy in these last days as we have clearly been warned that it would come. It is still frightening that so many of God’s people today could fall for the same old lie that first deceived Eve so many thousands of years ago.

“You shall be as gods.”

The same old lie of Satan is the lie at the heart of the New Age Movement.

Even sadder is the fact that it is the same lie that the Latter Rain “prophets” and “apostles” of “Joel’s Army” are putting forth today.
You will become Christ – God on this earth.

The heresy of Apotheosis.

Thousands of Christians are swallowing it – hook, line, and sinker.

The Church is trading her heavenly hope for an earthly delusion.
Like those foolish virgins of the
parable, their lamps have run out of oil. What they perceive to be oil, “the anointing of the Holy Spirit”, is instead a sensual counterfeit offered up by seducing spirits.

This counterfeit anointing comes with a
counterfeit gospel of a false triumphalism that will lead to a New Age “Kingdom” under Anti-Christ.

They will accept Anti-Christ with open arms, perceiving him to be Christ, whom they mistakenly identify as the
“rider on the white horse” of Revelation chapter six verse two.

What is so desperately needed in the Church today is so desperately lacking – discernment.
Discernment to tell the Spirit of Christ from the ecumenical spirit of Antichrist.

To discern the true anointing
from the false anointing, the true Christ from the Gnostic Anti-Christ of the Manifest Sons of God.

If you are participating in any of these Latter Rain revivals or churches today I urge you to turn back to the Bible. Compare what you are hearing and seeing with what is recorded and portrayed in the scriptures

“Test all things, hold fast to what is good.” Call the leadership into account for everything they say, or teach,
or do that does not line up with the word of God. If they refuse to repent – leave. Flee from the place and
don’t look back. “Remember Lot’s wife.”
I know it can be hard to leave a church, especially if you have
family and close personal friends there. But if they will not hear you – leave them behind.
The Latter Rain prophets are right about one thing – doctrine divides. Truth separates the wheat from the chaff.

In the early Church the Apostles kept the deceivers and false apostles out. They did this by publicly identifying the heretics and warning the sheep of their false doctrines.

Because of the diligence of
the true apostles of our Lord, the false apostles and their followers were forced to leave the Church.
The Apostle John writes:

“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many anti christs have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.” (1 John 2:18,19 NKJV)

Today we face just the opposite situation in that the false prophets and apostles are in the majority in many churches.

When they gain inroads into a church it’s more likely that only a minority will reject their false doctrines, revelations, and counterfeit “anointing” and stand on the Bible, being forced to go out from among the apostate majority.

Hold fast to the end for I am convinced that God is testing faithfulness rather than novelty in these last days.

By Wayne on Jun 25, 2011

I reiterate in the strongest possible terms:

“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many anti christs have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.” (1 John 2:18,19 NKJV)

By Wayne on Jun 25, 2011

Kevin, genuine christianity is black and white based on the clear teachings of scripture which are available to all who will humbly seek what HE is saying.

This stuff masquerading as christianity in these Last Days is satanic in origin and absolutely evil.

People I have respected as christians over a lifetime are now hopelessly committed to this nonsense and have effectively sold their souls for worldly popularity based on the wisdom of men, particularly men who like to suggest that they have an “imparted anointing.”

Everybody aware of this great delusion is obliged to share the Truth of the Word of God with all who will listen in the sincere hope that some may accept it and be spared the coming judgement.

By Wayne on Jun 25, 2011

This is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.(I John 5:11-13)

The letter of the apostle John is all about CLARITY.

His burden is to let christians know what is what and who is who, because the knowledge of God has been redefined by experience based distortions of the faith, just like today.

Therefore John’s epistles seek to clarify for us, who truly knows God? Who speaks for Him? How would one know the true from the false knowledge of God? Are the gnostics right or the Apostles? What is the nature of true spirituality?

Another way to ask these questions would be to ask, Who has eternal life? Or, What is eternal life?

Eternal Life is one of those phrases that is so familiar to so many, they automatically assume they know what it means. Few of us even think about it. Perhaps this is because it is part of the most beloved and translated bible verses ever, John 3:16.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.”(John 3:16)

However there are some very simple but significant misapprehensions of this important theme, that we must address.

* Eternal life doesn’t refer to prolonged life. Because man is made in the image of God, all men,saints or sinners, will be in existence forever. Some will spend eternity in Heaven, worshipping and enjoying God forever.
Others who have rejected God’s salvation, and refused to acknowledge their need of God, or His forgiveness, will spend an eternal conscious existence under God’s condemnation forever.

These are the words of Jesus, in John 3 ,
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.(John 3:36)
* Eternal life doesn’t begin when you die. There are many who believe that eternal life is given after death.

They hope that they will have been found to be “good enough” to merit eternal life.

This is a tragic miscalculation, those who believe this(and there are many) will be shocked to find upon death that they have”died in their sins”, which is the ultimate disaster.
First of all, no one is “good enough” to obtain eternal life, it is the gift of God. Secondly, if you haven’t recieved eternal life by the time you die, it is too late for you. Now is the time to recieve Life.

* Eternal Life starts now. “He that has the Son, has the Life.” Eternal life is a present possession, a gift God gives in love and grace to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ, as the sacrifice for their sins.

According to our opening scripture, those who have eternal life can know it. Also we should NOT assume that all who confess to be christians actually possess eternal life, for eternal life can be tested.

* Eternal Life is sharing in the life of God. When I was young and first came under conviction of the Holy Spirit, forgiveness was my obsession. How can I possibly be forgiven of my sins by a Holy God? This is where the gospel of Jesus’ death in my place became my salve.
But as I have progressed in faith I have realized that my deepest need of all was Life.

My problem was not only what I had done, but who I was. I needed a new nature, as well as forgiveness.

God’s gift is eternal life. He saves by allowing us to become partakers of the Divine nature. He gives us a share in his Life.
* Eternal Life is knowing God. On the night he was betrayed, Jesus prayed , acknowledging that God had given him “power to give eternal life to as many as thou hast chosen. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”(John 17:3)
Knowing God and being known of Him is what we were created for. God made us to love, enjoy and fellowship with Him, but it was sin that alienated us from Him. We lost the knowledge of God when the human race went into sin.

God cannot be known, other than through Jesus Christ. Eternal life is a restoration of the Image of God to man through Jesus. It is a return to favor with God, for “In thy favor is life”.
* Eternal Life is not a separate and independent existence. The gift of God does not come in distinct units to each person who accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour.
The allegory that Jesus used to describe Eternal life, is that of the vine and branches. Having eternal life is an ongoing communication of life, as in a grape-vine, a continuous reception of life from the source as the branch remains in the vine.

* Eternal life produces qualities that can be tested. This is the essence of the epistle, that you can know that you have eternal life.
If eternal life is the Life of God, than those who have this life should be able to point to specific aspects of their spiritual life which reflect ,no matter how dimly, that Divine life.
Remember, God is Light…God is Love… and Jesus Christ has come and remains in the flesh.Therefore those who have the Life of God, can know it by applying the three tests of eternal life, the test of Righteousness, Love, and Truth. Eternal life is the cause of all three of these attributes in the believer’s life.

Genuine bible based christianity is this simple.

By Wayne on Jun 25, 2011

Hello All.
The “Nut” of my last correspondence was to show the difference between a “Church” and a “Business”. Benny Hinn Ministries is a “business” and as such is successful in the fact that obviously delivers on “Price” and “Service”. His great “Client” base are obviously happy with the merchandise he has on offer.

I am not a client however, and that is my position on the matter.

Mr Potato; it is good to see a Christian with a sense of humour, very refreshing. God Bless you and yours!!

I will quote some information for you about our not mutual friend Mr. J. Calvin.

I am quoting from p62, Volume 2 of ‘A History of Christianity’. Baker Books. Clyde L. Manschreck, Editor. This information is quite widely available but is presented quite compactly here.

For 23 years Calvin laboured in Geneva. He was never ordained; his salary was a modest $600 yearly plus 12 measure of wheat, enough broadcloth for a new coat each year, two tubs of wine, and a house and a garden. In 1540 he married a widow with 3 children; his only son died in infancy. He refused all raises in salary and in keeping with his modesty asked that no monument be raised in honour of him. He was not without opponents, but he ruled Geneva with an iron hand, like a tyrant in the eyes of those who did not like him, like an emissary from God to the elect of those who did. Through a consistory of 6 clergymen and 12 laymen, Calvin enforced piety and rules of conduct more in the spirit of the Old and not the New Testament. His overall rule was to “glorify God and praise Him forever”, and the practical means of achieving this was strict discipline. He could not tolerate anything that seemed to dishonour God or the elect, and he punished drunkenness, profanity and divergent views with severity.
Fines were assessed for not attending church, adulterers were sentenced to death, dancing was punishable by imprisonment, a child was beheaded for striking his parents, and a critic was beheaded for placing a defaming placard on Calvin’s pulpit.

The most noted instance of iron rule was the “Burning” of Michael Servetus on October 27, 1553.

You can read on about Michael Servetus, he was the surgeon who discovered the circulation of blood through the body. He contributed more for mankind in the field of science and health than our Calvin did in any field I think.

Calvin was quite intolerant by all accounts. I know they study his writings almost higher than the bible in the “Evangelical” theological colleges.
They do not really dwell much on him at all in the Anglo/Catholic theological colleges though.

Calvin’s behaviour reflects the intolerance and vindictiveness of his “Personality Type”. I discussed previously about my studies in the Enneagramm (an ancient study on personalities taught in the orders) and much insight is gained as his attitude.

While he is a monumental intellect and verbose writer I would have to agree with the late Frank Houston: You cannot legislate Christianity.

After reading mountains of church history and history of Christian thought and doctrine the bible still holds the best explanation I think.

When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus he discussed being “Born Again”. I not a great fan of the old King James version but I believe this verse is so very well presented here. “The wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hear the sound thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and wither it goeth; so is every one who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8.

This passage tells me so clearly from Christ’s own lips that this experience of spiritual rebirth cannot be put in a box. There appears to be a some what mystical element to it all. In using the word mystical I refer to the sense of “Mystery” as understood in our faith life. Not everything is “spelt out” as with the old covenant laws. Our journey is a “Faith Journey”.

The behaviour of Calvin demonstrates perfectly the intolerant, punitive spirit that attends those with a self righteous image of God. Over my 50 odd years in the faith journey I’ve witnessed this time and time again.
As to the idea of Calvinism verses the Arminian view perhaps one might consider Molinism.
Luis Molina (1535-1600). Even Molina’s discussions are a field of mental gymnastics.
Still I think I prefer John 3:3 – 8 and son; it just makes more sense to me!!
There are many fads in scholarship, they come and go in popularity. The Purpose driven Church and so on are the latest of these transient flavours.

The Latter Rain movements and their varying developments are like this also; and I repeat that NO I am not part of that “stream” in any way.
In fact I was talking about some of these matters to my Anglican friends and they have never heard of this stuff! I was visiting a friend of mine who is a Rector, (we were visiting to minister) he had not even heard of the Latter rain issue. You see there appears to be a whole world out there especially in the older “historical” churches who have no contact or knowledge of these matters at all.
They tend to live as Faith Community and are quite involved with the local Parish life; the matters outside their sphere of local parish life tends not to concern them at all.

As to the “Trinity” a review of St. Basil’s idea of the circle dance is quite an interesting approach. The paracoresus: para=about, coresus= choreography or dance. Rather crudely interpreted but I am sure you get the drift. Look it up it may be of value. However I believe the trinity is another of those things which the church holds as “Mystery”; they cannot be fully explained or place into the “verbal consciousness”.

This is much like Christ’s explanation of the spiritual rebirth. In short try as the great scholars do, we cannot put God in a box or adequately define him. Jesus taught many parables on the Kingdom, he used many and varied stories to imply meaning and understanding to a subject that just can not be legislated, put in a box or distilled. In all this is all about a “Faith Journey”. A journey of a lifetime and will take all our life.

I will close with this little picture:
According to the nasty Mr. Calvin I could have 2 sons. God comes to me in a vision and says; “Your son Liam is cursed in my sight, his body parts and juices will be used to keep the fires of Hell going. Your second son Hamish is blessed in my sight, I know he is a drunk and useless but I have predestined him for everlasting life. This is my will! (you can imagine a voice echoing like some one with a deep voice talking through a length of PVC tubing, this gives about the right effect.)
God goes on to explain that he is just, loving and merciful and he has just erected a new fence and viewing platform at the edge of the great gulf so I can safely view my burning, twitching, screaming son in hell. He would be joined with the rich man in purple raiment who did not attend Lazarus.

I could come and go through all eternity a “visit” my non selected son from time to time. Or should that be aeon to aeon?

It’s all quite interesting I think.
What is our Father in Heaven really like I wonder!

God bless us all,
Brother Kevin.

By Brother Kevin on Jun 26, 2011

Caricaturisation Kevin.

Read how the eminent Swiss biographer Emanuel Stickelberger recounts Calvin’s last words with Servetus, based upon firsthand accounts of their prison meeting, shortly before the latter’s execution:

“Filled with emotion [Servetus], the other [Calvin] spoke lovingly to him, ‘Believe me, never did I have the intention to prosecute you because of some offense against me. Do you remember…’, he spoke now with a tender voice and not in a tone of reproach, ‘…how, in danger of death, I wanted to meet you in Paris sixteen years ago in order to win you to our Lord? And afterwards when you were a fugitive was I not concerned to show you the right way in letters until you began to hate me because you were offended by my firmness? But let’s not talk about me, nor of the past! Are you thinking of asking forgiveness of the everlasting God whom you have blasphemed on so many occasions? Are you thinking of being reconciled to the Son of God? If you deny that He became man as we are, you are destroying the bond of brotherly union which binds us to the Saviour, you are destroying our only hope . . .’

“Calvin looked expectantly into the eyes of the one doomed to death — now, now the moment must come in which the angels in heaven rejoice!

“But Servetus shook his head. Indeed, he spoke a different language now. Not one more unkind word could be heard from him. But he retracted nothing …”

It would be wise to read more of this tragic event from a biographer who used the primary sources, not the secondary or tertiary source that you have in this instance, friend. There is more at www.albatrus.org/english/potpourri/historical/burning_of_servetus.htm

By Paul, a small potato on Jun 26, 2011

Hello All,

Dear Mr. Potato,

I would like to “suggest” 2 sites you may be interested in as regards to the rather vile J. Calvin and what I truly consider his unscriptural and perverted vicious theology.

My opinion only mind you; however it would appear that I am not alone in my view of this monster that had obviously never experienced the gentle love of our Lord.

I may be too harsh perhaps.

To be fair he was “a man of his time.” Martin Luther would fit this bill also. He was a right old sort; hated Jews and suggested they eat pig shit. I accept that it is a different matter for us today. We can sit back by the fire-side in relative comfort and review them and their opinions and behaviour in relative peace and safety.

My question is; What if we were Michael Servetus about to be “burned”. Mick had a differing view point; so what! It is a bit of a luxury for old Johny to play the kind man isn’t it?

Why Calvin or any other Christian reformer would be “persecuting” anyone for that matter. What would their scriptural basis be??
Yes I am familiar with Stickleburgers reportage on the subject of Calvin.

I accept quite fully that these men lived in entirely different times than we find our selves today.
In the reading of history theological or other wise the environment of the times must be taken into consideration for sure. Many times reported details are shown over time to be not entirely well presented.

When speakers talk of the wonders of Luther and Calvin they often (purposefully) leave out the “Grubby bits”.

My question will all ways be; how in God’s name did any of these men justify their pernicious and vindictive behaviour from scripture? They seemed quite able to justify everything else they put forward.
If Luther and Calvin were practising today there attitudes and behaviours would be considered totally unacceptable.

Yes they influenced Western thought and world view without a doubt. There is no doubt that with “Calvinism” you either love it or loath it.
The wonderful thing about that is this; I can have any view I wish and no one can do a damn thing about it.

This is the wonderful thing about being a Christian today.
In the free world we can function without fear in any denomination we choose. We can accept Calvin’s view on predestination or not. This is a good time to live I think. Still many are daily persecuted for “Christ”.

The torments invented by the Roman Church during the Inquisitions are a bit of a brain teaser. How with all the great scholarship can any one any where find a single shred of support for torment, burning and torture?

J. Calvin fits into this question as well. With his obvious intellectual brilliance and giftedness how does he possibly gain support for his punitive attitudes??
His great biblical and classical scholarship is undeniable.
Yet even children in our Sunday school can testify to living like Jesus is to be kind and loving.

The persecutions by the “World of Christendom” both Catholic and Reformed have no precedent in the New Testament at all.

www.jesus-is-savior.com/Calvinism, This site is quite hostile toward Calvin.
Cathedral Bells is another interesting blog. This site takes a more moderate stand. They tend to see the man as set in his times and his behaviour as a reflection of the times in which he finds himself.

I am not suggesting these sites reflect my approval or conviction. They offer some background to support my comments.

I have all ready made it clear where my “General Theology” fits; a moderate middle of the road Anglican. Yes and at tension with many of the post-roman influences and a hopelessly failed Pentecostal. My eschatological views being heavily weighted to the Praeteristic view point. A Christ alone view on salvation.

Cathedral Bells is quite interesting as it tends to be rather scholastic and theological on a wide ranging subject matter. There is a side bar of choices and you will find Calvin listed as one of them.

It surely high lights what I have said from the beginning, “The world of Christendom agrees on absolutely nothing at all.”

I would like to make it clear that I am in no way having a “go” at you or any one for that matter. It is never a “personal” issue with me.

We are all pilgrims on a journey to the Kingdom, I believe that Christ “walks with us” on that journey; he calls us his friends. We do not discard friends because of variant viewpoints (these change over the years any way) we are friends because of love. Christ loved us first therefore we are able to love him and each other.
When I see such vindictive and pernicious behaviour towards others I know that something in the mix is definitely out of wack.

Wayne is a “champion” of the clear and simple black and white biblical truth; Good on Him!

The teaching of Christ is all about love to one another, turning the other cheek. John shows us that God is love!!
When we see orchestrated behaviour opposite to this even a “Fool” can see the difference.

Thank God our faith is based on one thing only; the same question posed to St.Peter. “Who do you say I am???”

In Christ alone; yes even the good old boring Anglican’s hold that doctrine hard and fast to their breast.

I do not need to give my pledge to Benny, Frank, Joycie, J. Calvin, Witness or Watchman Nee or anyone else for that matter.

I can study their works and make an opinion and even a value judgement. I must say I read much of watchman Nee’s works in the 1980’s and found them quite valuable. People accused him of a some what mystic approach. Yes that’s OK too. He was oriental and that I think was part of that world picture and approach; so what I think. The man suffered dearly for our Lord and will be held in Christ’s care for this.

It is an interesting and rewarding journey this journey of faith. My approach too many things have changed over the years. I guess trials and testings do this. Surviving cancer and illness and struggling daily with great pain etc causes one to examine things in a different way. One learns to lean on Jesus in a more reliant way. One begins to understand perhaps a bit better about “entering a rest” made available in Christ’s great work for us.
One begins to appreciate that we plod on in God’s good grace and his loving care.

When things are all quite jolly we can be guilty of over looking these issues and be a bit complacent. The Hill Song success model is terrific whilst things are going great. But when the world turns upside down I am sure people will be looking in other directions of faith.

I would really like to meet old Martin Luther.
He enjoyed a pint, used rather “earthy” language, suffered from irritable bowel syndrome, was a good singer and belted it out on the old Mandolin. We would have a lot in common I fancy.

Well I am away to put some logs on the fire, it is quite cold down here in the Snowy Mountains. Here is the “Institutes” comes in handy.

God Bless us all, and you and yours Mr. Potato.

Cheers.
Brother Kevin

By Brother Kevin on Jun 27, 2011

Yes indeed the world (kosmos) or world systems and ways is at odds with the ways of the Kingdom.
Jesus was indeed talking to his disciples and ensuring them that He had chosen them. He was inspiring them for what lay ahead.
I’ve worked with christian folk both in secular and the sacred environment. Some christian folk I know are disliked. They are disliked through no glow of righteous aura but because people around them consider them Self Righteous Holy than Thous.
<p>Not all opposition is because we are wonderful and righteous and the wordly cannot abide our pure presence. Many christian folk are judgmental, intollerant, hard harsh and vindictive. They seriously need to get a life, get out more and perhaps take up basket weaving.
Down in our Snowy Mountains area we have a number of fine benevelant christian souls. These folk sow themselves into the community in a real and meaningful way. They are esteemed by both the saint and sinner alike for their compassion and real and living faith.
They are vital in our community and are regarded by even the people in local government. This was indeed the story of both Daniel and Joseph.
The world definitely despises self righteous christian “pratts” who would seek to appear more worthy than Christ himself.
God Bless us all.

Brother Kevin

By Brother Kevin on Jun 28, 2011

Mr Parker : I’m not an apologist for M. Jean Calvin so that may leave you dissatisfied. The apologetics that has my interest is Christ-centered apologetics. Therefore, being neither a Calvin scholar nor his apologist, I make these comments:

- Each of the Reformers were very human persons. Quite disgusting in some respects, very focused in others. Though the Reformation is monumental in Western world history [if not in all human history] the key people in it were not super-men but rather very ordinary humans, as you have highlighted in Luther’s offensive attitude towards the Jews.

- They were men of their day, as you say - and significantly also each had very hard lives including in their family life. The severity they displayed in various areas was somewhat influenced by these factors as well as by their intense passion for truth and its distribution, to counter the deceptions that had been widely broadcast by the ‘Church’. Their very lives were under threat often.

- The old ‘chestnut’ of Calvin and Servetus is regularly misportrayed by anti-Calvinists - and such factors as the fate that Romanish inquisitors had for Servetus are overlooked. He was ‘done for’ whichever group apprehended him. Calvin was not part of the Council that tried him and sentenced him to this awful death but rather argued before the canton’s council for a more humane dispatch by beheading.
How do Oneness Pentecostals feel about such strong Reformational views of the heretical nature of their non-Trinitarian Christology, which is strikingly similar to that of Servetus??

- All of us deserve hell for none is righteous in his own stead. The LORD has graciously chosen many people [millions] to salvation, not based on any merit of their own. It is a mystery as to why he has chosen some and not others. My mother-in-law turns 99 yers of age this year - she is a lovely lady whom I love very much - she is a Cambridge-educated PhD and a devoted Communist and though we have prayed faithfully for many years she refuses to listen to any explanation of our faith in Christ. I do not know who have been elected to receive the gift of salvation nor when their regeneration will occur, but ever pray that it will be soon for her. Without this election by the LORD we are ALL LOST AND WITHOUT HOPE.

- I do care whether people believe that the Easter Bunny was crucified and was reincarnated to give us a comfortable, chocolate-filled life. When people spread deceptions they need to be curtailed. The way to do this is through respectfully explaining the reason for the hope that is in us rather than killing them.

- The episode also shines a light on the nasty behaviours of militarist Christians who seem to live by a slogan like “I love you and kill you in the name of the Lord”. It’s a long way from the teaching of King Jesus, the King of Peace. And is just as obnoxious as the killings done in “Christ’s name” in the 16th Century.

- We don’t forget Anglicanism’s long list of murderous persecutions either. What crimes did the Dissenters in England do? Such things as praying without the Prayer Book, ministers not ordained by the Church of England, the non-wearing of vestments & clericals, etc, etc. Baptists and Congregationalists were among their victims. I too, am glad that Christians today don’t let their fleshly impulses overtake them by killing their opponents… though unfortunately there is a disease rife that kills slowly … the disease is slander [sometimes in the guise of gossip. sometimes as supposed prayer-points being shared, sometimes as warnings].

- I give thanks to the Lord for allowing me to discover Mr Calvin relatively early in my walk along the narrow track. He has great depth in what he addresses and magnifies God’s activity in Creation as the ultimate Sovereign. I’m not in accord with his every word.
For thinking Christians there is always a delicate balance in our minds as to the ways of God in his sovereignty and the capacity of human agency. This conversation today is often being addressed as monergism versus synergism.
.
I must away for a while, for as with the nature of potatoes, time in the (physical) dirt is awaiting me. Brrrr… it is getting cool these days here in Qld, I’ll have to find that long-sleeved shirt to wear

By Paul, a small potato on Jun 28, 2011

Thank you for this comment Paul, I have enjoyed reading it and agree with you.

By Wayne on Jun 28, 2011

Pain is an unenjoyable companion and certainly colours the way we express things. I’m aware I may have been terse in recent days’ comments, and therefore apologise for any offence caused. A little time in our common property’s garden yesterday has really upped the pain level today.
.
To describe Anglicanism only in its first Century would give the novice a limited view of this system, which at that time was little more than ‘Roman Catholicism with English clothes on’, and joyfully entwined with the English Crown. When the period of the Commonwealth ruled England, things really began changing. Puritans and other Dissenters had a public voice in society. The monarchy was restored in 1660 - yet it wasn’t until 1689 that the Act of Toleration was passed granting certain freedom to Dissenters, but under some conditions. Primarily this was an anti-Catholic law but it did allow significant religious freedom to spread the Gospel, openly baptise believers, and form independent congregations separate from the state church .
.
In the freedom and acceptance that followed there also later followed an institutionalisation of these very churches and eventual denominalisation of many with their own “denom-HQ”. So years later how did these denominated churches handle deviations from their theologies and ecclesiologies ??
By a more moderate type of persecution - sadly - using the ‘killing me softly’ approach and character assassination. This still seems to be the modus operandi today, towards new groups of Christians, and towards individuals, who deviate from “our” [whoever we are] “correct” way of believing and doing things.
.
Some ‘Christians’ use the guise of defending our faith and patriotism to justify joining, or supporting, the military machine - and thrive on the tragedy that is the Middle East and Afghanistan situation today. This is truly an enormous perversity, and has nothing whatsoever to do with faithfulness to the One who was crucified for us.
.
It is tempting to just give up, throwing our hands in the air, and adopt a ‘let be what will be’ attitude. Yet the discipleship that the New Testament describes for us often gets people into trouble [I once had a book with a similar title] - this is aside from Bro Kevin’s collateral perspective above, regarding cantankerous personalities, etc.
.
The LORD calls us all to contend EARNESTLY for the faith that he and the apostles delivered to us. Here faith is shown to be a system of beliefs which affect our living - not some kind of substance which we work up, as taught popularly in some circles. We don’t ‘contend’ by shouting at people, we do it by actions of care & love, and conversations of grace and understanding of others, and discussions that reason articulately & respectfully regarding our faith in Christ Jesus.
.
Let us humbly follow Jesus, knowing that not one can fully grasp the comprehensiveness of the counsel of the eternal Godhead, to whom be glory forever.

By Paul, a small potato on Jun 29, 2011

Thank you for your remarks, Wayne.

My final bit on Anglicanism is that I’ve had quite a bit of contact with Anglican Christians back when I lived in Sydney. Those I’ve known are very devoted to the LORD and quite aware of weaknesses in their system. One of my mates was part of a diocesan HQ staff. I’ve attended their branded churches in Newcastle, Sydney [where I had the most contact], and Brisbane. When I returned to Sydney from Mullumbimby I lived for 3 months in an Anglican Community who had Evening Prayers [by the Prayer Book] before every dinner - this was a very helpful daily discipline. A couple of weekends were spent with Canon Jim Glennon’s healing ministry folk, too. I’m aware of some Orders within this church, including one of Franciscans comprising brothers and sisters here in Brisbane.
My point of course, highlights this behemoth’s diversity-with-godliness and the rich blessing I have enjoyed through it. From time to time I use the Prayer Book too. What actually happened in the past does not need to straightjacket the believer within this system with its “armour of Saul” layers of traditions and canon law. My experience has generally been very positive, with a tad of the opposite also.

There are evangelical Christians within it who have been quite frustrated by the behemoth’s ecclesiastical politics, and who were part of a move to create a distinct evangelical diocese within Australia - unfortunately this was quashed by the hierarchy - resulting in many withdrawing and commencing independent fellowships - and a dear friend who is an elder in one says there is a network of these Evangelical Churches right across NSW at least, who at heart remain Anglican [though disowned by behemoth] and are quite offended at some happenings, including the worldwide Communion’s acceptance of gays into priesthood & bishopry. They regard this as aberrational and a sin.

My opinion re vestments, etc, is that they are a carry-over from the Old Covenant and have nothing to do with Christianity modelled on the New Covenant. But looking beyond the outward appearance, there are men and women who are the finest of saints within liturgical environments. And I have met those who have been led to saving faith in Christ Jesus alone, through the strange-to-me practices of such ecclesiasticalism.

By Paul, a small potato on Jun 30, 2011

Hello All,
Dear Mr. Potato thank you for your replies. They are well thought out and written. No I did not notice any terseness in your discussions.
I would have to admit I hold a great deal of agreement with the things you state. I think we all accept that the world of Calvinism is indeed “Hotly Disputed”. Commentators state that the Calvinistic argument has perhaps been one of the most painful and divisive issues among protestant Christians.

I know that you will all be aware of Theo Beza. Theo continued with and developed further J. Calvin’s thoughts. Theo decided that those “selected” for an eternity of burning agony and those “selected” for eternal bliss were decided before the foundation of the world.
“Prelapsarianism” was the rather quaint term coined. It never ceases to amaze me the verbiage these intellectuals dream up.

The problem with these patently fanciful theories is that it opens up a real can of worms in relation to Gods true nature.

I will ask a simple and genuine question. What possible reason would God want to pre-select human flesh for supposedly an eternity of untold agony??

What possible “Kick” would God have for this? Is he a sociopath that gets his “Jollies” out of insane cruelty??

Jesus taught us to “Love our neighbour as we love ourselves”.

It would appear then that Christ’s teaching is quite false and at great odds with God. His father in heaven was indeed so patently cruel and evil how could Jesus possibly be reflecting truth and the will of his father.
The truth would be cruelty, sadistic, vicious and pre meditated brutality!!

If this be the case; then the persecutions and torments perpetrated by both Romish and Protestant sides truly reflected the real nature of God. The hard vindictive personalities of Calvin and my old mandolin mate Luther reflect more precisely the vicious nature of both God and Christ.

Wayne suggests that “Faulty doctrine” breeds “Faulty and immoral living”. (Or words to that effect.)
This I consider “bollocks”;(to reflect a good old Mandolin Martinism.
I gave my reasons for this in a previous correspondence. I referred to a Catholic friend who was incredibly generous during a recent hospitalisation. In fact I’ve been hospitalised 6 times this last 12 months, a rough year indeed. I give God glory that he has seen me through. I find it indeed humbling to have received wonderful assistance and copassion from Romanists and those that care nothing for Christ at all.

I take the position that the “Image of God” one holds has a far more powerful affect on our living than any thing we may believe. The “Angry God” image, the “Judging” God image are simply not emphasised in the New Testament representations.

When we want to know what God is like then our best example is the “Incarnate Christ”. Observing the life of Christ and his example gives us a better picture I believe.

Consider the children brought before Jesus, he said “Do not stop them from coming to me.” I can imagine Jesus saying “Hello kids!” As there was probably say 12 kids we could guess on percentages how many of them were “in” and how many of them were “out”. This would be rightly assessed via the “pre selection damnation theory”. Taking into consideration that “few there be that find it”, then Jesus would have said “You 2 stay, the rest of you have been pre selected for your body parts to keep my Father’s hell going. God still loves you but too bad.”

This may be considered a caricature but it represents quite correctly just one scenario that would come from these odd views about God.

We are taught by St. John that “God is Love”. This the message taught by Christ and early Church.

At the beginning of the “Church Age” Peter quotes from the prophets and says; “then whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved!”

Christ’s discourse with Nicodemus in John 3 is highlighted with “who ever believes”.

Yes the scriptures show a tension between God’s sovereignty and man responsibility. Many Christian intellectuals have attempted to find a balance for this. I’ve read Aquinas, Calvin, old Mandolin Martin and God knows how many others.

I suggested reviewing Luis Molina (1535-1600). He offers yet another school of opinion on this issue. Yes I confess it is another tome of intellectual gymnastics.

I suggested also perhaps reviewing the ancient study of the Enneagram. This study taught originally in the “orders” deals with the personality styles of individuals. I have been taking day work shops in this for some time now. We mention Calvin and Luther and many others as personality example in this work shop.

My contention is that the “Image of God” one holds coupled with the personality type one possesses has a far greater effect on our living than what we may pretend to believe.

The “reformist” and correcting personality is generally coupled with a more punitive “darker” side. This can be shown by comparing the life styles of Luther and Calvin as an example.
The one loud and rambunctious; the other quite and brooding.

By way of example: I knew a Pentecostal pastor in NZ who was indeed more righteous than our Lord. He displayed an uncompromising vigour for the “truth” (in his opinion).
His flaming passion for righteousness was contrasted by his lack of empathy, compassion, forgiveness and anything else that remotely mirrored our Lord. This in fact would be a predictable outcome of his disintegrated personality type. In fact any slight deviation from the “truth” could put a parishioner on a 2 year probation trial.
He finally left. His family suffered quite dreadfully.
He returned to the city in NZ and a collective sigh went up from all denominations. Eventually he was told to PO.

I am quite sure we’ve all seen these examples. Yes this one example was a combination of this man’s “Image” of God and his disintegrated personality type.

I may have wandered off the point a bit here, my apologies if I have. My intent is to present a God of Love. My view is that the great intellectuals have striven to systematise God and his word and works. Unfortunately God cannot be put in a box no matter how great the intellectual mind or system applied.

I have an old friend who is a published writer, feminist theologian and mentor of many years. She has been unable to reconcile the tensions between God’s sovereignty and free will. Unfortunately she has resolved this issue by accepting the Gnostic view of the 2 different gods of the Old and the New Testament.

Much in our faith journey is “Mystery” it is just not spelt out in the details we may suppose. When we emphasise one side of the coin we detract from the other.

We are on a journey of “faith” after all. We are like the wind that blows from here to where. (John 3:8)

Well, God Bless us all,
Brother Kevin.

By Brother Kevin on Jun 30, 2011

Some rotting potatoes in the cellar cause all the potatoes to be tainted. They are no longer capable of being a perfect 100kg batch of potatoes. Sounds like the human condition doesn’t it.
We have the added dimension of our hostility and estrangement in relation to the LORD until we make peace with him. We shake our fists at our maker and demand he tell us why he has done certain things. We repaint him into a grotesque being when we won’t accept that he is LORD OF ALL and chooses to do what he will do. What he does is completely in character with his nature. And sometimes it is ‘hard medicine’ he gives people - why do you reckon, that is?
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That the eternal Godhead elected, or chose, people for salvation in Christ, indicates very, very great love for humans. We are all bound for hell without this meciful initiative of the Sovereign God. That the Godhead did this before the foundation of the world is not a surprise for God was not caught off-guard when the first humans sinned.
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Sin became inherent in humans, and in the freewill of human agency people have steadfastly sinned - in thought, heart and deed. Why is sin so detestable to the Godhead, Brother Kevin ?? Why do you picture God as evil because he seeks righteousness and purity and justice ? How do you propose he should treat those who he describes as being at enmity with him ?
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The “mystical mystery tour” of the Enneagram won’t shed light on the LORD’s insistences about these.

By Paul, a small potato on Jun 30, 2011

The following is an extract from Constance Cumbey’s book, A Planned Deception, which can be downloaded in its entirety for free here: http://public.me.com/cumbey. The bold emphasis used in the article is my own.

Year of Jubilee? or Age of Aquarius Disguised?

“Rev. Ernest Ramsey, an associate pastor at Unity’s Kansas City’s Founder’s Church, Unity on the Plaza, is an enthusiastic follower of the Alice Bailey and Benjamin Creme teachings. In his Research Report #2, he tells of something he was led to by a spirit guide – what he terms “Neo-Pentecostalism.” An aberrant branch of Pentecostalism, this is more commonly known as the “Manifest Sons of God.” That movement is also referred to as “Sonship or “Overcomers.” Ramsey concludes based on even less evidence than I have personally collected that this is part of the New Age Movement.

Ramsey’s work for his organization, “Synthesis Fellowship” first came to my attention in early 1983. His major report, entitled “An Evolutionary Basis for the Reappearance of the Christ and his Executives, the Masters of Wisdom” was inspired by Benjamin Creme’s appearance and speech at Unity on the Plaza in Kansas City, Missouri. Unity on the Plaza is the founder’s church of Unity School of Practical Christianity headquartered at Lee’s Summit, Missouri. Ernest Ramsey, a handsome and articulate spokesman for occult interests believes very much in the work of Alice Bailey’s “The Tibetan” and Benjamin Creme. In recent months he even made a trip to London to try and see “The Christ.” His report encompassed the works of several occult writers. He also attempted a synthesis of C.S. Lewis, whose work, at times, did appear to contain occult, syncretistic overtones. The most interesting section of Ramsey’s report dealing with “Neopentecostalism”, Ramsey spent a semester at one of the Neo-Pentecostal or Manifest Sons of God seminaries – in upstate New York “at a location surrounded by tall pine trees.” Already familiar with the Alice Bailey writings, he was amazed to see that there was a branch of Pentecostalism that embraced the same teachings – albeit using sometimes different terminology.

Like those seeking the “Age of Aquarius” these people too were seeking a “New Age.” Like the other New Agers, these people taught that “The Christ” was an anointing – not necessarily one man. They taught that Jesus was a pattern son who was to be a sign of something even greater to come – the “Manifestation of the Sons of God.” They too believed the earth was to be cleansed of evil. And chillingly like the other New Agers, they believed they were to be “God’s” instruments to do such cleansing. The New Agers believed they were gods. The Manifest Sons of God likewise taught that if one accepted their “new revelation” that they themselves would actually become Christ at the time of the unveiling or manifestation of the Sons of God.Ernest Ramsey believed the “Neo-Pentecostals” did not accept astrology in any way. This is obviously not true as some Manifest Sons of God teachers, such as David Ebaugh, obviously do accept it. However, Ernest Ramsey excitedly pointed out in his report that they had a teaching which indeed did parallel the Aquarian teaching of the Age of Aquarius – the Old Testament “Year of Jubilee paralleled the redistribution of the world’s wealth. The Feast of Tabernacles was the

By Wayne on Jun 30, 2011

equivalent of the coming together of the world’s peoples and varied religions under one tent or tabernacle – the equivalent of the New Agers’ long-awaited “New World Religion.”

Ramsey said in his report that there were three major centers of the Manifest Sons of God or “Neo-Pentecostals.” Obviously there are more. But the three locations given by Ramsey were (1) recently deceased Bill Britton’s House of Prayer and associated networking churches headquartered in Springfield, Missouri; (2) Virginia Beach, Virginia; and (3) Upstate New York ‘on a mountain top at a location surrounded by tall pine trees.”

Obtaining some of Britton’s materials and other MSOG teachers as David Ebaugh and Royal Conquist. I discovered the following teachings which closely paralleled those of the New Age Movement:

1. Lucifer is not Satan
2. Those who do not accept the “truths” of Sonship are to be eliminated or killed. That judgement is to encompass the entire world, but will start with the church!
3. The Bible is not to be interpreted literally;
4. The Christ is an office – not a man;
5. The future coming of the “Year of Jubilee” which will see the redistribution of the world’s wealth.”
6. The Garden of Eden never existed as a real place. It instead was a spiritual state from which men fell.
7. A belief in the existence of auras and energies.
8. Jesus is not returning in one body as he did the last time – but this time in many bodies, as the overcomers or Manifested Sons of God. We will be headed by one who will be our king – Jesus’ younger brother.
9. We never leave this planet. “Heaven” is merely a spiritual state from which we fell which we may reattain by accepting the “New Truths” of Sonship.
10.Those accepting the “truths” of Sonship are the generation who will not see death, or who will “loose the bonds of death.”

By Wayne on Jun 30, 2011

Thsnks Wayne - Very helpful on understanding the New Age Sons of God

By Editor on Jul 1, 2011

Wayne, now we understand where you obtained your incorrect definition of the word “Neo-pentecostalism” as shown in tke 30/6 comment above.
“Rev. Ernest Ramsey, an associate pastor at Unity’s Kansas City’s Founder’s Church, Unity on the Plaza, is an enthusiastic follower of the Alice Bailey and Benjamin Creme teachings. In his Research Report #2, he tells of something he was led to by a spirit guide – what he terms ‘Neo-Pentecostalism.’…”
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A cult minister’s usage does not define the word. The word means “new Pentecostalism” and that is all. You need to stop using it incorrectly, friend, in all your writings as it indicates a lack of understanding regarding word meanings.
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BTW where are the sections with bold font emphasis, that you mentioned?

By Paul, a small potato on Jul 2, 2011

Wayne,
I’ve just discovered that your 30/6 two-part comment is just a copy & paste of an article at //endtimepropheticwords.wordpress.com - this is not acknowledged above, and is a type of plagiarism. This is not good.
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When I found that the link above, to Ms Cumbey’s book, does not work I googled it and lo & behold the deja vu article.
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It is ethical and essential to give credit to the real authors when publishing so much information as you do, brother.

By Paul, a small potato on Jul 2, 2011

This material is part of the range of materials I informed you about weeks ago and which you indicated you would read.

It is actually included in the work by Charles Graves on Latter Rain that I urged you to read if you were interested in where previously bible based churches were being led astray.

Your diversion is completely irrelevant in the context of a blog and extremely difficult to understand in view of the fact that people committed to this nonsense are going to hell for their refusal to find such material as you refer to for themselves.

I AM NOT INVOLVED IN AN ACADEMIC ENDEAVOUR FOR ACADEMIC RECOGNITION BUT A POLEMIC EFFORT TO WARN THE DELUDED.

Consequently all of my theological thinking comes externally to me I have NO original thought and have alwways relied totally on proper hermeneutics and reliance on the clear teachings of the Word of God which become readily obvious to the sincere.

Neo-Pentecostalism or NEW pentecostalism is the cover all term for the false teaching prevalent in the formerly Bible based pentecostal churches.

As a total perversion of biblical christianity it is correctly used in referring to the occultic and NewAge teachings presented by people such as Alice Bailey and Benjamin Creme.

If you check out the extent of false teaching in this “new” pentecostal teaching you will find that neo pentecostalism may reasonable be used for all false antibiblical unbiblical superbiblical teachings within pentecostal or charismatic circles which may at one time have been bible based.

This is a blog site NOT an institution of Higher Learning.

I am NOT seeking a Doctorate or indeed acadmic recognition of any kind.

I have NO intention whatsoever of reinventing the wheel as the TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD IS ALWAY THE TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD.

TRUTH NEVER NEEDS TO BE REINVENTED AND IS CERTAINLY NOT A PRODUCT OF MY IMAGINATION.

Conversely FALSE TEACHING IS ALWAYS FALSE TEACHING and must be refuted wholeheartedly by ALL who have NOT been deceived by this occultic new age nonsense.

You may safely assume that any comment of mine regarding theological truth or doctrinal error is always a product of significant research and NOT original thought in any way - I am NOT a pragmatist as are the Latter Rain people.

I will never seek to supplant the TRUTH with personal opinion NOR will I ever attempt to invent a story by my own ingenuity.

John 15:18-19
New International Version (NIV)
The World Hates the true Disciples

18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

The role of the church is to Preach the Gospel of Salvation and to Teach the Word of God to those who will listen.

By Wayne on Jul 2, 2011

As a result of my research and certainly not through any personal insights or non bible based prophecies I have discovered the following Manifest Sons of God teachings which fall under the “neo-pentecostal banner of occultic and New Age teachings closely parallel those of the New Age Movement:
1. Lucifer is not Satan
2. Those who do not accept the “truths” of Sonship are to be eliminated or killed. (NB See also the threatening comment by Benny Hinn referred to in the Charles Graves article about anybody daring to question his ministry.} That judgement is to encompass the entire world, but will start with the church!
3. The Bible is not to be interpreted literally;
4. The Christ is an office – not a man;
5. The future coming of the “Year of Jubilee” which will see the redistribution of the world’s wealth.”
6. The Garden of Eden never existed as a real place. It instead was a spiritual state from which men fell.
7. A belief in the existence of auras and energies.
8. Jesus is not returning in one body as he did the last time – but this time in many bodies, as the overcomers or Manifested Sons of God. We will be headed by one who will be our king – Jesus’ younger brother.
9. We never leave this planet. “Heaven” is merely a spiritual state from which we fell which we may reattain by accepting the “New Truths” of Sonship.
10.Those accepting the “truths” of Sonship are the generation who will not see death, or who will “loose the bonds of death.”

By Wayne on Jul 2, 2011

Rather than try to explain it all repeatedly on this blog I URGE you to google articles such as:

“Anointing or Apostasy = The Legacy of the Latter Rain” by Charles Graves.

Why is Latter Rain, Dominionism, and Kingdom Now Theology False? provides a veritable minefield of information.

http://www.erwm.com/Latter%20Rain.htm

Read them thoroughly and prayerfully.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

1 Corinthians 16:13 Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

There is ONLY ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST and HIS WORD IS AVAILABLE TO US IN THE BIBLE.

By Wayne on Jul 2, 2011

Gidday to all the vegies ….. I have been reading the comments on this blog and I truly can’t find any writing by anyone that gives a clear ‘yes or no’ on any topic … it’s all just wordplay, hardly anything the Jesus of the holy bible would endorse or even entertain for that shortest period of time … for the latest on Paul Sheehan’s Messages go to ….www.
Sorry Paul .. but we are not here to provide a window for opportunists — Editor/Moderator CWM

By paul sheehan on Jul 2, 2011

To the editor/Moderator CWM … The displaying of the web site at the end of my comment … I considered a bonus but my main objective was to give a simple critique of the comments on this blog in a general way….the writers are pulling too many punches.. and people are not getting the ultimatums and absolutes of the Christ .. this is dangerous. St Paul said that he held nothing back that may have been helpful. All criticism is profitable if we walk by faith in Jesus the Christ. And remember, Jesus was no orthodox onion.

By paul sheehan on Jul 2, 2011

It’s after 8am now & 24 hrs roughly since I’ve been here - Wayne you’ll be thrilled that I finished reading the last half of the Graves 138 pages book last night - and yes about 8pm there was more deja vu. So the website I mentioned yesterday a.m. also plagiarised work. It is a shame that premillennial end-times fanatics just “lift” others’ work and publish it as if it is their own.
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All original work is copyright in Australia and owned by the author, whether or not there is a copyright notice displayed, unless the author has assigned the copyright to someone else. If it has been assigned [even to the Public Domain] this is required to be shown.
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It IS legal to quote quantified portions of another’s work in non-commercial publications, including websites and their blogs…. as long as the specified acknowledgement is given. This is also just a plain matter of honesty, Wayne. Showing your sources is essential for any who write things for people to read - this is not confined to writing in academia - and it is also as an aid for the reader who wants to learn more from a particular author.
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This info is my gentle ‘wagging the finger’, friend.
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Now that’s clarified, you’ll be happy to know I’ve completed the month or so of reading those 100s of pages you gave links to - Graves’ ebook was the final piece. In the next few days I’ll enter my comments about those readings. Thank you Wayne for being so helpful in providing the links, as I’ve learned quite a bit.

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By Paul, a small potato on Jul 3, 2011

There is NO biblical precedent for compromise with FALSE TEACHING nor is it acceptable for the bible believing christian to contemplate such a sellout of the faith. To the contrary the Bible instructs us all to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

By Wayne on Jul 3, 2011

How about a burst of End Notes and references for your reading
Is this likely to help anyone to identify the delusion which has overrun the church and to flee from it in order to retain their salvation?
1 Bill Hamon, “The Eternal Church”, (Phoenix, Arizona: Christian International Publishers, 1981), p. 242
2 Richard M. Riss, “Latter Rain” , (Mississauga, Ontario: Honeycomb Visual Productions Ltd., 1987), p. 54
3 Franklin Hall, “Miracle World”, (Phoenix, Arizona: Hall Deliverance Foundation, Inc., 1985), p. 10
4 Ibid.
5 Ibid.
6 Ibid.
7 Ibid.
8 Franklin Hall, “Atomic Power With God Through Fasting And Prayer”, (Phoenix, Arizona: Hall
Deliverance Foundation, Inc., 5TH Ed., 1975), p. 9
9 Ibid., p.19
10 Tricia Tillin, “The New Thing – Part Two”, (http://www.banner.org.uk/res/newthin2.html), p.10
11 Jewel van der Merwe, “Latter Rain”, (http://www.discernment-ministries.com/latter.html), p. 2
12 Roger Oakland, “New Wine or Old Deception”, (Costa Mesa, Ca. : The Word For Today, 1995), pp.
67,68
13 Ernest Hawtin, “How This Revival Began”, (The Sharon Star, 1 August 1949), p. 314 Al Dager, “Kingdom Theology – Part 1”, (http://www.banner.org.uk/res/kt1.html), p. 14
15 Kurt Koch, “Between Christ And Satan”, (Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1962), p. 150
16 Al Dager, “Kingdom Theology – Part 1”, pp. 15,16
17 Bill Randles, “William Branham: Jesus Only Apostasy”, (Charlotte, NC: Paw Creek Ministries, Inc.), p.2

By Wayne on Jul 4, 2011

Kevin, on 30/6 you wrote of your difficulty with the doctrine of eternal punishment.
FYI Jonathon Edwards (who you remember was the Reformed, Postmillennial writer of “Charity and Its Fruits”, and a key figure in the move of the Spirit known as The Great Awakening) wrote a booklet on the justice of God and the punishment of sinners. You may wish to read this at
//comingintheclouds.org/ebooks/ebooks.htm
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Perhaps this will help you in grappling with this severe matter and its doctrine.
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God bless you

By Paul, a small potato on Jul 5, 2011

We CANNOT emphasize enough the gravity of ALL this nonsense in the eternal economy of God:

What is happening is that church leaders are succumbing to the pagan religion of the age!

Yes, millions of years and evolution are part of the pagan religion of this age to explain life without God. As they succumb to this pagan religion and compromise God’s Word, wittingly or unwittingly, Christian leaders are undermining the authority of the Word.

This very dodgy church leader Houston has also had a hand in aligning previously Bible based churches with the Roman Catholic church and indeed stood by whilst colleagues have done the same with other false religions as well.

But it’s even more than this!

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. (John 1:1-4)

Who is the Word? The Word is Jesus Christ. When one puts fallible man’s ideas over the Word of God, then one is not just undermining the Word of God, but actually attacking the Son of God. We can only know the Father through the Son, and we know the Son through the Word.

To compromise the Word of God is a very serious matter indeed.

False teaching and the acceptance of the same nonsense that Satan deceived Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden is ultimately what this great end time blasphemy and apostasy is all about.

True leaders within the true church of the Living God are obliged to resist worldly wisdom and to stand for the Truth of the Word of God at ALL cost.

What do these snivelling false teachers and false prophets expect to receive from God at the Great Judgement apart from ” Depart from me I never knew you - you workers of iniquity.”

The truly born again Bible believing christians MUST steadfastly reject ALL of this humanistic nonsense as God is the rewarder of the faithful - those who endure with the TRUTH until the very end.

By Wayne on Jul 5, 2011

The overriding objective of the sharing of the Word of God and the insights provided by so many people with more information than I (who know absolutely nothing BUT what the Lord has so graciously permitted me to learn by conscientious effort) am able to acquire personally is to INFORM WARN AND URGE A RETURN TO BIBLICAL VALUES BY ALL WHO GENUINELY and SINCERELY DESIRE TO REMAIN FAITHFUL TO HIM AND HIS WORD UNTIL THE VERY END but have been lead astray by the ravenous wolves which have invaded the church.

This is what God clearly requires of ALL who call upon HIS NAME.

Unfortunately, however, we can expect this disgusting apostasy to continue to spread and grow worse until the Lord returns.

The spirit of Anti-Christ is growing increasingly more powerful and seductive and more and more
churches are falling under its ecumenical Latter Rain spell.

As the “revivals” continue to spread there is
going to be increasing pressure upon those of us who continue to stubbornly stand on the Word of God against them.

As lying signs and wonders grow more and more powerful and as the claimed “salvations” increase they will put more pressure upon us to “jump into the river”, accusing us of being “Pharisees with a religious Spirit” or
worse – “Anti-Christ”, if we continue to reject what they consider to be so great a move of God. “

All TRUE christians will be maliciously vilified by those who choose to serve the father of all liars and this will provide the lead up to the great persecution of the end time believers which the bible warns about.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Concerning the Great Tribulation, also known as Jacob’s Trouble (Jer.30:7), Jesus said: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened” (Matt.24: 21-22).

The tribulation will be so great that God will have to shorten it or else no human being will be able to endure it and survive. How long a period will the Great Tribulation need to run its course before mankind is annihilated? Four years? Five years? Seven years? Ten years? No one knows. The Scriptures do not give us the answer except the fact that God will shorten it. But how long will God allow it to last before He shortens it?

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

By Wayne on Jul 5, 2011

The people whose work I have referred to Paul are, as I understand it, genuine Bible believing christians with a heart for informing the deluded as well as the faithful of the great gap between the religion masquerading as christianity today and Biblical or Bible based christianity.

I STRONGLY expect genuine bible believing christians to be delighted at their material being used for the purposes I have made their work available for in this forum.

Should you permit these people to speak for themselves rather than applying worldly values in an apparent effort to suppress this vital spiritual information from being made available they would confirm wholeheartedly that they also have made this material available for the very same reasons as I have presented it in this forum. Genuine believers are NOT seeking self promotion BUT they are seeking to help some to escape from the “snare of the fowler.”

I have met a number of these people personally over the years and been encouraged in this way and this is another way I know this to be the case.

As you seem to be so concerned at my making their material available for ALL to read I will make the offer to you that should you find any person I have chosen to quote from to be genuinely offended in any way by my use of their material for the purposes of informing people of the magnitude of the gap between genuine biblical christianity and the occultic new age filth masquerading as christianity today I would appreciate their contacting me personally so that I may apologise to them unreservedly and in all sincerity.

At their request I will retract whatever material I have presented herein that they may prefer to have remained private and confidential in these spiritually dark and dangerous days.

By Wayne on Jul 5, 2011

As Philip Powell has stated so eloquently:

Ultimately the biblical mandate is clear, –Come out from among them–the present danger is stated,–Do not touch what is unclean–the method of escape is explained–And be separate–and the end result is promised–I (the Lord) will receive you.

By Wayne on Jul 5, 2011

Matthew 15:18
The things that come out of the mouth come out of the heart, and THESE MAKE A PERSON UNCLEAN
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So what is Jesus referring to here?
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Matthew 15:19
New International Version (©1984)
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

International Standard Version (©2008)
It is out of the heart that evil thoughts come, as well as murder, adultery, sexual immorality, stealing, false testimony, and slander.

GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Evil thoughts, murder, adultery, [other] sexual sins, stealing, lying, and cursing come from within.

King James Bible
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

American Standard Version
For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:

Bible in Basic English
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, the taking of life, broken faith between the married, unclean desires of the flesh, taking of property, false witness, bitter words:

Douay-Rheims Bible
For from the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.

English Revised Version
For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:

Webster’s Bible Translation
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
.
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So Jesus isn’t “smiling” on the stealing of others’ work, nor on the slanderous railings towards others.

By Paul, a small potato on Jul 6, 2011

Dear Wayne …. Can we really say like many do …that we have come ..Out.. from among ‘them’ when we associate,affiliate and even fellowship with those who will not come out of ‘False Teaching’ .. like Calvinism or even another teaching with a dash or smell of Calvin in it?..After all there is only ‘One Doctrine’ not Two or Two and a half …that saves to the uttermost,isn’t there. Some so called christian-heroes have actually gone in(in the flesh) to these wicked churches, secretly,like undercover so to speak, in order to bring the deceived out … but this is not scripture either,is it?.. I think ministers need to consider what scripture says for a change and it says that unless Father calls ..Jesus the Christ can not save and what about this scripture … ROMANS 1:28-32 … St Paul was talking to saints here …..selah.False teachers for false peoples,it is the way of the Lord ..seek and you will find what you/your heart is looking for, whatever that may be, good or evil, we all reap what we sow … God said/thus says the Lord!…. Messiah tells all where the wide,easy road leads and it is not to Heaven …….ref/JOHN 7:17,JOHN 14:21-24.

By paul sheehan on Jul 6, 2011

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever HE shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV

First of all, Jesus told you the Holy Spirit would guide you into all truth. Secondly, the Holy Spirit would speak but not of Himself because the Holy Spirit only repeats what He hears from the Father and Jesus. Thirdly, the Holy Spirit is here to show you things to come.

Matthew 7

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

The central issue for those who will be saved is that there is NO “new paradigm” as far as Christianity is concerned, just the same old narrow road that leads to eternal life in Christ.

THERE IS NOTHING NEW.

No immortality or streets of gold on this side of heaven.

Just the truth. The Way, the Truth, and the Life - and that “old rugged cross”.

It comes as no surprise that we are in the midst of a terrible apostasy in these last days as we have clearly been warned that it would come.

It is still frightening that so many of God’s people today could fall for the same old lie that first deceived Eve so many thousands of years ago.

“You shall be as gods.”

The same old lie of Satan is the lie at the heart of the New Age Movement.

I repeat there is NOTHING NEW Paul.

Nor can there ever be for the truly born again bible believing christian.

Faithfulness to HIS Word is what is required Paul NOT irrational ravings against the faithful bible believing christian committed to the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE and the narrow way to eternal salvation that leads to.

By Wayne on Jul 6, 2011

Dear Wayne …you surely did give that …’PAUL THE SMALL POTATO’ a serving in your last comment..wow … is he ashamed of his name or what?… surely he has a name?…One thing I must ask you Wayne …does a christian/born-again, pew warmer or pastor go to heaven or hell if they live in and go on in ‘known sin’ and are these types worthy of the name ..faithful?…or even christian?… ref/Roamns 11:22,John 15:2,Revelation 3:16,Hebrews 10:39…selah.

By paul sheehan on Jul 7, 2011

Hello Paul, I am comfortable with the following response to your question.

The term “in Christ Jesus” (I Corinthians 1:30) indicates that we are in an intimate relationship with Him. Paul then details—through the terms “wisdom,” “righteousness,” “sanctification,” and “redemption”—that God, using our believing, humble, submissive cooperation, will be responsible for all things accomplished in and through us. Some modern commentators believe that, because “wise” and “wisdom” appear so many times earlier in this chapter, the terms “righteousness,” “sanctification,” and “redemption” should be in parentheses because Paul intends them to define what he means by true wisdom in this context.

God, then, is pleased to save those who believe and to do a mighty work in them. This set Abel apart from, as far as we know, every other person living on earth at that time. What he did by faith pictures what everyone who receives salvation must also do to begin his walk toward the Kingdom of God.

Everyone must be called of God; believe enough of His Word to know that he is a sinner who needs the blood of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his sins; repent, that is, undergo a change of mind toward God; and be justified, made legally righteous by having Jesus Christ’s righteousness imputed to him.

This enables a relationship with God to begin, and sanctification unto glorification can proceed.

By Wayne on Jul 7, 2011

Dear Wayne ….. So with reference to the scriptures that I have displayed above … can a ‘legally righteous’ person who has the Christ’s Righteousness imputed to them ever be disqualified,cast out of,cut off from or rejected from the Kingdom of God?.. due to unrepented sin.I find that to think otherwise would be to disrespect script,the outworking of the Cross(the work accomplished by Him who hung on it)and to grieve holy ghost.Salvation is on His terms isn’t it?… which is why we have such a few gathering in small groups today outside of ‘Camp Compromise’… As you are well aware, few be they that want to be saved on His Terms. Messiah’s Way is no doubt Exclusive ,even highly exclusive .. for the Christ excludes ‘wilfull’ sinners and those who put their earthling loved ones before him in their diary and lives.After 24 years of walking with the Christ I have come to find that Salvation is a fine line and many will be calling Lord!..Lord!.. on that Day and Jesus will say ..I don’t want to know you. Jesus said he is coming back for a Spotless Bride/Church,no blemish or wrinkle .. Perfect!..What is God’s meaning of Perfect?… A MAN OR WOMAN who walks with him ‘Up to the Light/Knowledge they have’…. ref/Colossians 1:28.Not all men and women will be Mature when the Lord comes, we shall all be at different growing levels, not all will be mature hence Colossians 1:28 could not mean ..Mature, how could it?.. Besides I believe there will be many ‘Mature’ Christians heading to hell fire eternal…. ministers included,false teaching is damnable,there will be weeping and nashing of teeth.Have a glory bound day…. ref/Romans 15:13.

By paul sheehan on Jul 8, 2011

I would like to share this article with you also Paul.

Eternal Life Proven By Righteousness…
billrandles | July 8, 2011 at 4:17 am | Categories: Mending the Nets | URL: http://wp.me/pUodd-j0

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.( I John 3:7-11)

The first epistle of John is a series of tests, the threefold tests of eternal life or the absence thereof. John wants to clear up the confusion engendered by counterfeit versions of christianity. Gnostics had redefined the knowledge of God, to the point that real christians doubted their own experience.

The Gnostics were so spiritual, they had constant dreams, revelations, ecstatic experiences, encounters with angels, etc. They seemingly enjoyed an exalted spirituality, far beyond the simple bible based faith of ordinary christians. These people really seemed to know God in a deeper way!

The Apostle therefore, sets out to remind us of who the “only true God” really is, in three simple theological propositions. God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all…God is Love… and Jesus Christ has come (and remains) in the flesh. This is the “true God and eternal Life.
Those who truly have known this God will manifest the Life that He gives them, for eternal Life becomes the fountain of true Righteousness, true Love and truth in doctrine, notably the doctrine of Christ himself.

By these tests, of Righteousness, Love and Truth, we can “know that we have eternal Life”.

Why does John call us not to be deceived about Righteousness, telling us something as self-evident as this, that “He that doeth Righteousness is Righteous even as He is Righteous…”?
Because the gnostics had succeeded in spiritualizing righteousness. One of the beliefs of gnostics, ancient and modern, is that all that really matters is the spiritual, not the physical. Who you are “in Christ” was supposed to be more significant than what you may or may not do with your body, because the physical is irrelevant.
Therefore the conclusion was drawn that physical acts of unrighteousness are meaningless, they cannot possibly affect your relationship with God. All that supposedly matters is who you are “in the Spirit” and whether or not you have the “Gnosis”.

This is the deception John was addressing in the first chapter;

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:( I John 1:6)

There were those who believed because of the teaching of the gnostics that the walk was unimportant, and who denied that sin existed in the believer, or that it could ever harm our relationship with God!

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(I John 1:8)

This is a teaching that is very much with us today, the denial of original sin. Note that in verse 8 we claim to “have no sin” that is sin as a principle within us. Denial of original sin is self-deception, and evidence that the truth does not abide within.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.(I John 1:10)

In this case sin is a verb, the gnostics were saying they hadn’t sinned.

This is rebellion against the light, calling God a liar and proof that the Word isn’t in us.

All of these are manifestations of the spiritualization of righteousness, which is deception.

In our own time we have outrageous examples of this, for currently there is a charlatan healing evangelist named Todd Bentley.

This deceiver has been prophesied over by leaders of the so-called prophetic movement, as the next great move of God, all the while knowing that he would within two weeks leave his wife and children to marry his secretary, and to continue on with his much acclaimed and received “ministry”.

Such is the damage wrought by “Spiritualized righteousness”, evidently to Rick Joyner and the other deceivers who anointed and endorsed this adulterer, Bentley’s “anointing” and the “revelations he brings” are so vital to the cause of christ, that it doesn’t matter that Bentley trampled upon his own wife and took another.

This is the sort of confusion that John wrote to clear up. “He that sinneth is of the devil”, for the works of evil originate with the devil. Those who receive Todd Bentley knowing his immorality, demonstrate either that they themselves are devoid of eternal Life, or that they are in a state of utter spiritual confusion.

Those who sin blatantly and unashamedly are of the devil! Seems like a no brainer doesn’t it?

Those who have eternal Life, as a consequence of eternal Life, cannot sin with impunity, for eternal life will not allow it.

Eternal life becomes within us the cause of the utter hatred of sin, all sin, indwelling and otherwise!

We don’t deny occasional sin. John himself said “If any man sin, WE have an advocate with the Father…”. Therefore those who possess a share of the Life of God, who is light, and in whom no darkness can abide, hate and resist sin for the rest of their lives.

The test of eternal Life is that it causes in us the hatred and resistance to sin. Tnose who do not have this, have no reason to believe that they have eternal Life.

By Wayne on Jul 8, 2011

Dear Wayne … Thank you for your kind thought to present Bill Randles article. Iam glad that Iam not a ‘Gnostic’… I don’t know a lot about these creatures but they sound a little unbalanced … especially when script says that ..’We are the temple of the holy ghost’..obviously they ‘know ye not’ this verse or don’t want to.As for Mr Bentley I don’t know this man and I know not why he divorced his wife or if he did

Not this ‘Repetitious-Repentance for the Same Sin’ tripe.. how hypocritical,what an insult to the Word,the Blood,Holy Ghost and the Outworking of the Cross.The churches of today need a real good dose of the preaching of this kind of repentance .. I reckon you would empty the pews within the first week, they would say you have another doctrine or a demon and you are asking the impossible. For they don’t know Jesus as ’saviour from self and sin’,they only know him as the Jesus who is getting their goodies ready for ‘them and their loved ones’ in heaven. And remember ‘Absolute Predestination’ is that stinkin last days doctrine that’s gunna get em all in… well into the ‘building’ at least but not into heaven not according to script anyway. He who has ‘been forgiven much’ loves much….The Church of the Second Command is the last days Ecumenical Church, a revival of selfish men and women’s ways to heaven, unprecedented ..the people love it this way but what will they do in the end….glory halleluyah!!!!!!

By paul sheehan on Jul 8, 2011

Dear Wayne …..Postscript ……… A good reading to compliment my most recent comment that may interest you, is by Brother Donald Wilson,(brother Donald’s dad-deceased,was once a AOG minister also and departed many,many, years ago in disgust, long before the anti-AOG message of today started to trickle through the nations) a very interesting detailed writer, yet very simple in his application, I simply love his sense of humour and his discovery is nothing short of beautiful…. if you go to my web site you may key in this word after the site ../freedom.htm ….

By paul sheehan on Jul 8, 2011

Wayne, it’s good to see you have begun acknowledging your sources, at least, that are so frequently copied & pasted. Thank you for changing the previous habit.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 9, 2011

Lance, You’ve deleted essential sentences, which were not derogatory in any way towards anyone - yet you’ve left Wayne’s defammatory comments towards myself intact. Why

**** Reply***

Thanks for your concerns Paul;
The moderation on this blog is now changing tack starting now.Defamatory or inflammatory comments from anyone will no longer be accepted, (including Wayne’s) or considered “news worthy”, and will end up in the delete box, or edited to comply with simple etiquette, and useful learning for the whole “Christian” community.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 9, 2011

Dear Mr Moderator …. I have no choice but to cease commenting on this blog (now you can relax)for the simple reason you choose to leave out-delete deliberately the ‘juicy truth-filled bits’ (essential sentences,so to speak)that I wrote in my last comment … ‘we must be careful not to upset the ‘Jezebels’ in the churches mustn’t we’…Ahab would not be happy at all and besides, the entire blog is really a waste of my valuable time ..the entire blog smells of partiality and partiality is sin … hope you all have a good time wasting your time.The whole(ecumenical) community would not be interested in(the truth)what I have to say anyway,lets face it….it’s all about what the community wants not(thus says the lord) Jesus .. as I said and have said for years to deaf ears ‘The Church of the Second Command’ is the last days church of the moment, sin begets deafness……..glory halleluyah!…. Romans 15:13.

*** Reply from Moderator***
Perhaps the editing had something to do with the matter of Todd Bentley who clearly walked out on his wife. I have had plenty of Jezebels to deal with throughout my life, however that has no relevance to Wayne’s last entry. The matter at hand was that of Todd Bentley’s immorality, who after such behaviour, was reinstated as minister of the gospel after his divorce, a scandal which has caused no end of trouble throughout Christendom. Simply on that basis your remarks about women were deleted .

By paul sheehan on Jul 9, 2011

SONSHIP AND REBELLION
“I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.” -
Lucifer (Isaiah 14:14 NKJV)
Of all of the “new revelation” that came out of The Latter Rain movement, by far the most harmful
and far-reaching has been the teaching of the “Manifest Sons of God”. This doctrine denies the orthodox
teaching of the resurrection and rapture of the saints in the physical presence of Christ in the air. It is
replaced instead with an “anointing” and immortalization that occurs right here on this earth, producing a
super race of Christians, who will be lead by a group of super apostles and prophets. This superchurch, “the
corporate body of Christ” on earth will triumph over all of her enemies in the Great Tribulation. She will
establish and usher in the Kingdom of Christ, who will then be “released” from the heavens to establish
control over it.

The Word of God is clear - the church at the end of this present dispensation will be a persecuted remnant.
Jesus said “…and unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elects’ sake those
days will be shortened.” And what of the elect, during those days of great tribulation? They will be all but
wiped-out by the Anti-Christ and the Great Harlot (the false church).
“Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and
those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And
authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.” (Rev 13:6,7 NKJV)
The chief agent of the beast, the Anti-Christ, in his war against the tribulation saints will be the false
church (the Great Harlot described in Revelation chapters 17 and 18).
“I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the
martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.” (Rev 17:6
NKJV)
The result of this worldwide persecution of the tribulation saints will be an innumerable company of
martyrs for Jesus.
“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could nnumber, of all
nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white
robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to
our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb! All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and
the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: “Amen!
Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and
ever. Amen. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and
where did they come from? And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who
come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
(Rev 7:9-14 NKJV)
Clearly, scripture teaches that the end of this dispensation will be a time of great suffering for the
saints of God at the hands of the Anti-Christ and his agents. Nowhere in scripture is the idea put forth that
the Church will become a mighty army, conquering all before it. This prophecy doesn’t stand up when
measured against the Word of God.

By Wayne on Jul 10, 2011

It was in this atmosphere of spiritual elitism that Latter Rain/Manifest Sons of God theology was
birthed. I believe that this Latter Rain theology became the origin and foundation of the great apostasy that
Paul warned would come upon the church prior to the rapture and subsequent revelation of the Anti-Christ.
“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away
comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…The coming of the lawless one is
according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all
unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth,
that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should
believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in
unrighteousness.” (2 Th 2:3;9-12 NKJV)

By Wayne on Jul 10, 2011

Although not all Manifest Sons of God proponents go so far as to teach that the “Manifest Sons” are actually going to become God, many in fact do. This heresy that teaches that when we are glorified we will not only become immortal, we will become God, is known as “Apotheosis”:
Another crucial point of orthodoxy has to do with the (sic) uniqueness of Christ’s incarnation (conception and birth). Christ alone is the God-man…Christ shares His humanity with us, but not His deity. He does not impart deity to His people. The Spirit dwells in us and
works in us, but that indwelling does not make us gods-incarnate…Known historically as the heresy of Apotheosis (“becoming God”), many modern Gnostics appear to think they have found something everybody else has failed to notice. Evidently, they either do not know or do
not care that these flashes of insight have been articulated by heretics from time to time for two thousand years.

By Wayne on Jul 10, 2011

It is absolutely crucial for the discerning Bible believing christian be committed to the issues encapsulated in the following statement so that by the promulgation of the TRUTH some may in fact be saved from this great delusion:
“And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.’” (Rev 18:4 NKJV)

The same old lie of Satan is the lie at the heart of the New Age Movement.

Even sadder is the fact that it is the same lie that the Latter Rain “prophets” and “apostles” of “Joel’s Army” are putting forth today.

You will become Christ – God on this earth.

The heresy of Apotheosis.

The Church is trading her heavenly hope for an earthly delusion.

Like those foolish virgins, their lamps have run out of oil. What they perceive to be oil, “the anointing of the Holy Spirit”, is instead a sensual counterfeit offered up by seducing spirits.

They will accept Anti-Christ with open arms, perceiving him to be Christ, whom they mistakenly identify as the “rider on the white horse” of Revelation chapter six verse two.

What is so desperately needed in the Church today is so desperately lacking – discernment.

Discernment to tell the Spirit of Christ from the ecumenical spirit of Antichrist.To discern the true anointing from the false anointing, the true Christ from the Gnostic Anti-Christ of the Manifest Sons of God.

If you are participating in any of these Latter Rain revivals or churches today I urge you to turn back to the Bible. Compare what you are hearing and seeing with what is recorded and portrayed in the scriptures
“Test all things, hold fast to what is good.” Call the leadership into account for everything they say, or teach, or do that does not line up with the word of God. If they refuse to repent – leave. Flee from the place and don’t look back. “Remember Lot’s wife.”
I know it can be hard to leave a church, especially if you have family and close personal friends there. But if they will not hear you – leave them behind.
The Latter Rain prophets are right about one thing – doctrine divides. Truth separates the wheat from the chaff.

In the early Church the Apostles kept the deceivers and false apostles out. They did this by publicly identifying the heretics and warning the sheep of their false doctrines

Because of the diligence of the true apostles of our Lord, the false apostles and their followers were forced to leave the Church.

The Apostle John writes:
“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many anti christs have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.” (1 John 2:18,19 NKJV)
Today we face just the opposite situation in that the false prophets and apostles are in the majority in many churches.
When they gain inroads into a church it’s more likely that only a minority will reject their false doctrines, revelations, and counterfeit “anointing” and stand on the Bible, being forced to go out from among the apostate majority.

Hold fast to the end for I am convinced that God is testing faithfulness rather than novelty in these last days.

By Wayne on Jul 10, 2011

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By Editor on Jul 11, 2011

Those who hold to a Reformed theology embrace a wider range of understanding than that of only J. Calvin, as I mentioned above a couple of years ago. Brother Calvin’s ‘Institutes’ were first written as a discipling tool for new Christians and were revised by him many times during life - eventually becoming the theology of the Reformation. While they showed his precision of thought it is significant that his ‘Commentaries’ on many books of the Bible also showed him to be very pastoral in his concerns. Some aspects of Reformed theology were not nutted out until later generations.
Hyper-calvinism is an extremist view which IMO is hard to view as Christian, particularly due to its gross fatalism. It developed out of the discussions within the later Reformation church leading to the views of Infralapsarianism and Supralapsarianism - views that delineate the issue of when, in the eternal counsel of the Godhead (before Creation), was the election of those who would be redeemed.
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The Infralapsarian view regards the election as logically occurring after the consideration of humanity’s infection with sin and the prospect that all people are sinners. This predestination is to Life, and is an immense act of sovereign grace before the foundation of the world. Most Reformed believers hold this view.
The Supralapsarian view, is held by Hyper-calvinists (though some others also hold it) and regards the election of people prior to sin’s entry to the world and is an election that is active double-election - i.e. election to Life for some and election to Destruction for others. Those who hold this view also include another minority who believe that God actively conspires against the non-elect to do them harm during their lives - a very nasty and erroneous view that does not sit with a Christ-focused view of Christian scripture.
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Not only Reformed believers have such strong differences within them but Arminian believers have them too. Some Arminians believe that their salvation is not secure in Christ Jesus, and as a result work themselves ragged doing good works [often maintaining the church programs] to keep their salvation in fear or concern that they may otherwise lose this precious Gift from God. They view God as capricious.
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It is very clear that my summary does not cover many of these differences of approach - it is a thumbnail sketch at best. I pray it will enable us all to realise that, as Kevin said above, we are not required to “sign off” under any singular view to be fully accepted by our loving heavenly Father. Bible-based Christians emphasise different aspects as they explore the whole counsel of God to us in his written Word.
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By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 12, 2011

Hello,

I’m not sure which Mr. Potato I am addressing as there appears to be a variety out there; small, even smaller, mashed and otherwise.

My Irish roots are quite happy with either!

However thank you for your correspondance. I
say “Bravo”. Well written and stated.

We must never loose sight of the fact that God is love and not willing that any should perish.

We have just come back from an Anglican Youth Camp. It was wonderful to see the “rowdy”, “rumbunctious”, full of life young people and their infectious desire for life. The young people who spoke were wonderful in their presentation of the faith journey.

I recall camps like this as a young person myself and they were real “Stepping Stones” along the faith journey.

There is a great sense in which faith develpoment must be demonstrated and learned.

I know there is a lot of nonsense out there and Wayne has so clearly listed much of it in his writings. But let us be assured that a great deal of good is being done as well.

I am not so sure that the people I’ve met are doing great work through any sense of Arminian belief though. The one’s I’ve associated with are driven by a great sense of passion in their christian faith journey.

God Bless All
Brother Kevin

By Brother Kevin on Jul 12, 2011

It says in the Matthew’s Gospel;

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

In Ephesians;

(8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (9) not of works, lest anyone should boast. (10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Along with a multitude of other verses…

Ephesians 2:8-10 makes it abundantly clear that, though works do not save a person, they are nonetheless required by God. Since works are required, understanding this aspect of the works issue comes down to comprehending when they are required and the reasons God requires them. While being called of God and led to faith in Jesus Christ and repentance toward God, every person is performing some measure of work to reach those states. We are, after all, called upon to present fruit fit for repentance even before being baptized! We work to bear fruit that provides evidence that we believe God by turning toward giving our lives to Him.

Moderators Note:

May be some of these comments can assist Trevor.

By Wayne on Jul 12, 2011

Dear Wayne,
Thank you for your reply.
I have not got a clue what you are saying or suggesting.
If I were a Doctor I’d prescribe some “Happy Pills” your way.
Life is not all “Doom & Gloom”; in fact there are wonderful things happening “Out there”.

I think maybe we view God quite differently.

God Bless you.
Brother Kevin

By Brother Kevin on Jul 13, 2011

Kevin,

I have been consistently referring to the issues which have lead Phillip Powell and many other Bible Believing christians to express the sentiments which began this blog.

The issues this blog site was intended to deal with are encapsulated in his opening statements repeated here for the benefit of the confused.

Increasing numbers of people are heeding the trumpet call to “Come out from among them.”

Some who have left the decadent and apostate movements and denominations in “spirit” are remaining within for various reasons.

Those of us who have, by the Grace of God apparently, been granted spiritual insight into what is going on are very much aware of the reality of the warnings:

We (that is Bible believing christians committed to biblical christianity) believe that everyone MUST be careful not to be overtaken by error or coldness by staying in (these apostate churches) too long or by allowing the TRUTH of the Word of God to be diluted by vain babblings and philosophical arguments.

Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you - 2nd Corinthians 6: 17 (NKJV).

Ultimately the biblical mandate is clear,

–Come out from among them–the present danger is stated,

–Do not touch what is unclean–the method of escape is explained

–And be separate

–and the end result is promised

–I (the Lord) will receive you.

The issues you do not understand are the issues we have been trying to help people to understand and deal with biblically throughout the course of this blog.

The myriad of references, resources and supporting comments have been provided for the benefit of people who do not understand what is happening in an attempt to help people such as yourself (because you have indicated that you do not understand) to escape the coming judgement of the apostate and therefore decadent movements which the Bible has repeatedly warned is coming.

By Wayne on Jul 13, 2011

There is a hue and cry for the NEW and the NOVEL with very few voices being raised to return to the old paths. Of course this has always been the case, even in Jeremiah’s time when he penned those famous words:

“Thus says the LORD, ‘Stand by the ways and see and ask for the oldpaths, where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find restfor your souls’. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.”‘ -Jeremiah 6.16

Such a situation is currently reflected in the books and tapes which are spreading in alarming numbers from those whom we at CWM view as false teachers, because of their non-biblical approach to the subjects they address.

Popularity, not purity of doctrine, has become their yardstick in most cases. This will continue unless it is challenged, which is part of our motivation, though we have no great expectation to stem the tide. We simply want to remain faithful to the biblical mandate to contend for the faith.

“Beloved, when I was very diligent to write to you ofour common salvation, it was necessary for me to write to you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was oncefor all delivered to the saints.” -Jude 3

On the pro-active side the authors believe that the classical Pentecostal is biblically and historically correct and is the one to maintain or Too many are throwing out the pure teaching and practices of the forebears of our heritage with the bizarre nonsense that has masqueraded as Pentecostalism. We believe that it is high time to address the situation in a serious and public manner.
With these things in mind the book is an extension to the conference with its theme of “Gathering the Faithful Remnant”. There are eight sections published in the order in which the messages were presented at the conference. This means that the authors alternate starting with the call to the faithful remnant and developing from there with Aeron Morgan presenting Holiness and Philip Powell Supernaturalism as the two pillars of our Pentecostal heritage. Naturally there may be some overlapping. Time did not permit for much interaction between the authors, which is probably a good thing and something that should be kept in mind when reading the contents.
The book is not a verbatim record of the messages preached so there will be advantage in obtaining the audio or video tapes in addition to reading the book. If you agree with the message please recommend the book and the tapes to others. Our aim is to make a difference, in the will of the Lord, to the serious situation, which pertains in the mainline Pentecostal and Charismatic expressions of the church in both hemispheres.

I urge you to read “Gathering the Faithful Remnant”

By Wayne on Jul 13, 2011

Kevin,
It seems that Wayne is adding in certain information about the need for good works after our reception of the gift of Salvation, and this is an aspect of truth that is indeed vital.
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“Ye have not chosen me but I have chosen you, and ordained you that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name he may give it to you. These things I command you, that ye love one another.” (John 15:16-17, KJV)
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After being regenerated the sincere believer is moved by the Holy Spirit to serve their Saviour and LORD in good works that bring glory to him. These works would include, in the early days of faith, obeying the Lord by going through the watery grave of believers’ baptism, and they continue in ongoing service of him throughout their lives.
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Our salvation is secure if we are believing the theocentric Good News of the Bible, and not another ‘gospel’. Jesus himself advises us “My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” (John 10:27-28, KJV)
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Salvation is completely of God, by his initiative - it is JESUS plus nothing. It is forever secure. Hallelujah !!!!
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Our works that are prescribed, flow out of immense gratitude Christ Jesus (and are not fear-based busywork to stay regenerate). Without such good works evident in someone it is appropriate to wonder whether they have in reality been born-again.
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The conversation continues …..

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 14, 2011

later, on the same day…
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I am aware that not all believing Christians see eye-to-eye on many matters - and Kevin has rightly pointed this out. It is a privilege to be able to reason with one another about serious matters and even disagree, without a monarch or other big potato shouting “He disagrees, torture him, and give him a ghastly death!”. It’s good to stand back for a breather and give thanks for the others of “the faithful” who challenge our thinking, don’t you reckon?
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A poem I often read is this famous nineteenth-century poem based on much older stories from India and elsewhere. It is most helpful in staying theologically grounded in the vastness of our LORD.

THE BLIND MEN AND THE ELEPHANT
by John Godfrey Saxe

It was six men of Hindustan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind)
That each by observation
Might satisfy the mind.

The First approached the Elephant
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side
At once began to bawl:
“Bless me, it seems the Elephant
Is very like a wall.”

The Second, feeling of his tusk,
Cried, “Ho! What have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear.”

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Then boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake.”

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“’Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”

And so these men of Hindustan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right
And all were in the wrong.

MORAL:
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

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In the inconprehensible vastness of our LORD I find we are all often like those in this scenario. And in his amazing grace he has provided revelation of part of himself and his ways to humans through the written word of God. And still we find the Scriptures are so deep and so wide that we gravitate to favourite parts, as it seems no-one can fully apprehend or comprehend all the wealth of these 1400 pages or so. We are blessed indeed.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 14, 2011

Although in great abundance in these days of wholesale apostasy false or invented/man made religion will not suffice on the judgement day.

As faithfulness to HIS Word corresponds directly to faithfulness to HIM personally it is obvious to ALL BIBLE believing christians that only humble obedience to HIS WORD cut it with the TRUE LORD JESUS CHRIST when we meet HIM face to face.

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 2:15

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

By Wayne on Jul 14, 2011

Matthew 7:21-27
New International Version (NIV)
True and False Disciples

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

By Wayne on Jul 14, 2011

Dear Moderator,
These scriptures are VERY relevant to the scenario which has been developing on this blog.

Kind regards

Wayne

***Reply from Moderator***

Unfortunately like Kevin I did not “understand” the “bible verses on repeat” either in response to other’s postings…

Certainly the verses are relevant, but one can only quote the same verses to the same group of bloggers, so many times, as previously mentioned by all those who contribute here.

By Wayne on Jul 14, 2011

Hello All,

Thank you Mr. Potato; Very well put!!

It has been suggested that I read the Document/Book?? “Gathering the Faithful Remnant”.

I would be pleased indeed to do so.

Where and how would I go about this??

Wayne, I am quite familiar with matters theological as I have done both ministry and theological training many years ago.

Matters concerning Pentecostal/Neo Pentecostals and the present “Goings On” are quite within my
Intellectual/theological/academic grasp.

When I said that I did not “understand”; I was referring to the “bible verse tirade” in response to my posting.

I was simply making the point about a “positive” aspect of the present Christian journey for me. The Anglican Youth Camp my wife and I assisted in.

I was attempting to show that in the “Colourful” world of Christendom there are some really good things happening.

What I observed at the camp was great encouragement in “Serving Christ”, coming to Him in prayer and seeking His forgiveness and aid in our life’s “Faith Journey”.
All absolutely bible based and wholly attending to Christian living in an “Intentional” manner!!

There was certainly nothing whatsoever to come out of; No wolves in sheep’s clothing; No weird prayer sessions; in fact all very sane and positive exalting and encouraging the young in the life of Christ. This must surely be our focus; the new generation, the future leaders in the faith. Judging by what I saw things looked “Very encouraging”.

How you could respond to this in the manner you did is beyond my comprehension,
This I do not understand.

I have attempted to respond to the relevant matters in hand.

The late Frank Houston has been actively vilified on this sight; rightly or wrongly. One writer has suggested we forgive and move on. I have suggested we let him RIP.
In this matter I’ve written about my personal experience with the man; not someone else’s
second-hand opinion. Some of you suggested this was of value.

I am happy to continue contributing to this blog.
If the Moderator and others feel I should disappear that is all right by me also. I have a real and living faith and am still very active in Parish life so I really do not mind at all.

God bless us all,
Brother Kevin.

By Brother Kevin on Jul 15, 2011

Kevin, there is a time lag before comments appear on the post - and I’m replying to you.
Please do not stop contributing, your points of view are interesting and your stories are too. Keep sharing, Brother. IMHO you are a modern-day Christian philosopher in many respects, and it seems you would be at home with M. Blaise Pascal and Helmut Thielicke discussing matters of Christian faith.
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The book recommended by Wayne is only in paperback, I believe, and would be available from Philip Powell (the owner of these websites) or from one of the CWM websites.
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The parameters of discussion have been published here on 3/3/09 and 11/7/11 and all contributors are required to write within those parameters. I’m looking forward to reading more of yours… and others. Freedom of expression is a very valuable thing and does not need to be hindered by bullies or others - on blogs like this all can contribute, not just big potatoes, not just those with a particular theological viewpoint. Write on, squire !!!
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By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 15, 2011

As I’ve lived in pentecostal circles for a long time I am, of course, familiar with the reality that many sisters and brothers hold the idea that a regenerate Christian can lose their salvation - and Hyper-Arminians claim that even one sin forfeits a person’s salvation. From Christian Scripture I conclude this is a false understanding of particular Bible verses, and I’ve been told the old Elim Pentecostal church also regarded it as false teaching.
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I’ve placed a helpful article by J. Hampton Keathley, III, from //bible.org
below for the edification of this blog’s readers, in the hope that it will further assist us understand other Bible-believing Christians and the theologies (i.e. understandings of revealed scripture) that they hold in faithfulness to the LORD.
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THE ASSURANCE OF ETERNAL SECURITY
Introduction
While the believer may gain assurance of his salvation and know that he has been saved, the question may arise concerning the permanence of his salvation. Once genuinely saved by trusting in the merit of Christ’s death on the cross for sin, can the believer lose his salvation? Is there anything we can do to lose our salvation? The answer is NO! Why? Because Scripture clearly affirms the fact we are protected by the power of God through faith. Faith brings us into a grace relationship with God as a gift of God through the merit of His beloved Son. We are saved by His record, not ours.
1 Peter 1:5 who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.
The following seven approaches set forth the case for the believer’s eternal security, “buckled up for safety” because of the power of God and the overwhelming sufficiency of the person and work of Christ.
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The Trinity Approach
The first argument for the eternal security of the believer stems from seeing how all three persons of the trinity work in concert to make and keep us secure in Christ.
From the Standpoint of the Son
Romans 8:31-39 What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is the one who will condemn? Christ is the one who died (and more than that, he was raised), who is at the right hand of God, and who also is interceding for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will trouble, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “ For your sake we encounter death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we have complete victory through him who loved us! 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers, nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The declaration in Romans 8:34, “Christ is the one who died,” is given in answer to the questions of verses 31-33, and in anticipation to the questions and declarations of verses 35-39. The goal of verse 34, however, is to show the absolute security of the believer. Two reasons are stated in relation to God the Son:
(1) Christ Died as Our Redeemer and Substitute: By His death Christ removed the barrier that separates mankind from God. Man’s sin and God’s holiness, which form a barrier between the sinner and God, were dealt with at the cross so God is free to justify us, declare us righteous through faith in Jesus Christ. The same truth is declared in the following verses.
Romans 3:23-28 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 24 But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed. 36 This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus’ faithfulness.27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded! By what principle? Of works? No, but by the principle of faith! 28 For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.
…..cont’d….

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 15, 2011

…..Romans 5:1,8 Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, … 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

The book of Hebrews states Christ’s death is the only sacrifice which counts and is once and for all time.

Hebrews 9:11-14 But now Christ has come as the high priest of the good things to come. He passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, 12 and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided ritual purity, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.

Hebrews 9:26-28 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice. 27 And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment, 28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.

Hebrews 10:12-14 But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.

(2) Christ Is Risen and Sits at God’s Right Hand. The second argument of Romans 8:34 concerns the resurrection and session of the Savior at God’s right hand. He sits at God’s right hand as our powerful advocate and intercessor to plead our case when we sin or when accused of sin, and to intercede on our behalf by virtue of His finished work on the cross which reconciles us to God.

Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “The salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the ruling authority of his Christ, have now come, because the accuser of our brothers, the one who accuses them day and night before our God, has been thrown down.”

Romans 5:10-11 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life? 11 Not only this, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received this reconciliation.

Hebrews 7:25 So he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

John 17:11 I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them safe in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.

From the Standpoint of the Father
Through the protection of our heavenly Father, whose holiness has been perfectly satisfied by the death of His Son, we are kept by:

His Sovereign Purpose
Salvation depends upon God to bring it to pass, not us. Nothing, not even our sin, can frustrate the eternal and sovereign purpose of God who determined to save us by grace through faith in His Son. Since God’s holiness has been satisfied by the death of Christ, He can be just and the justifier of those who receive His Son by faith.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ. 4 For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we may be holy and unblemished in his sight in love. 5 He did this by predestining us to adoption as his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure of his will— 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son.

……..

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 15, 2011

…..
His Love for the Son
We are kept for the sake of the Son and His perfect work for our sin. Believers are “in his dearly loved Son,” the place where God’s love abides, and nothing whatsoever can separate us from the love of God (cf. Eph 1:3-6 above).

Romans 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

His Work of Discipline
The Father’s work of discipline proves we are still sons even when we sin. He does not disown us; He disciplines us.

Hebrews 12:5-11 And have you forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons? “My son, do not scorn the Lord’s discipline or give up when he corrects you. “For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son he accepts.” 7 Endure your suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline? 8 But if you do not experience discipline, something all sons have shared in, then you are illegitimate and are not sons. 9 Besides, we have experienced discipline from our earthly fathers and we respected them; shall we not submit ourselves all the more to the Father of spirits and receive life? 10 For they disciplined us for a little while as seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit, that we may share his holiness. 11 Now all discipline seems painful at the time, not joyful. But later it produces the fruit of peace and righteousness for those trained by it.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 It is actually reported that sexual immorality exists among you, the kind of immorality that is not permitted even among the Gentiles, so that someone is cohabiting with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you have been deeply sorrowful instead and removed the one who did this from among you? 3 For even though I am absent physically, I am present in spirit. And I have already judged the one who did this, just as though I were present. 4 When you gather together in the name of our Lord Jesus, and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 turn this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 11:30-32 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and quite a few are dead. 31 But if we examined ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned with the world.

Sin does not change our relationship to God as His children though it does affect our fellowship, the intimacy of our walk with God, our ability to serve Him, and the rewards we will receive in the future kingdom.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each builder’s work will be plainly seen, for the Day will make it clear, because it will be revealed by fire. And the fire will test what kind of work each has done. 14 If what someone has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If someone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

His Sovereign Power
Nothing or no one is greater than the Father which means nothing or no one can defeat God’s purpose to save us or remove us from His love and care (cf. Rom. 8:31-39).

1 Peter 1:5 who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 24 Now to the one who is able to keep you from falling, and to cause you to stand, rejoicing, without blemish before his glorious presence,

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come! 18 And all these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation. 19 In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.

…..

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 15, 2011

From the Standpoint of the Holy Spirit

His Work of Spirit Baptism
Spirit baptism refers to the work of the Holy Spirit whereby He places believers into union with the body of Christ and identifies them with Christ’s person and work. If believers could lose their salvation, it would mean the body of Christ could and would be maimed. This is foreign to Scripture. To the carnal church in Corinth, which was full of strife, envy, fornication, and drunkenness, Paul declared, “are you not walking like mere men?” (1 Cor. 3:3). Yet, he affirmed the fact of their salvation and the presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body—though many—are one body, so too is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether Jews or Greeks or slaves or free, we were all made to drink of the one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:1 So, brothers and sisters, I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but instead as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2 to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

His Work in Regeneration
Regeneration refers to the impartation of spiritual and eternal life which makes us new creatures in Christ. This can never change. First, it is based on the work of the Son, not our works. And second, as physical birth makes one a child of his parents forever, so spiritual birth does the same.

2 Corinthians 5:17 So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come!

Titus 3:5-7 he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7 And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.”

John 3:3-8 Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must all be born from above.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 3:16-18 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

As mentioned previously, rather than disown a disobedient child, God disciplines his children. At times it may even be to the point of physical death, but believers still remain His children (cf. above Heb. 12:5-12).

His Work of Indwelling
This refers to the gift of the Holy Spirit to indwell the believer which was promised by our Lord as a permanent indwelling. The Spirit is given forever and given without conditions other than faith in Christ.

John 7:37-39 On the last day of the feast, the greatest day, Jesus stood up and shouted out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and 38 let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, ‘ From within him will flow rivers of living water.’” 39 (Now he said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:16 Then I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

James 4:5 Or do you think the scripture means nothing when it says, “The spirit that God caused to live within us has an envious yearning”?

The Holy Spirit as a Seal
This is a description of the Holy Spirit from the standpoint of what He is to the believer through His indwelling. A seal in ancient times was a sign and proof of: (a) a completed transaction, i.e., our salvation, (b) of ownership, we belong to God, and (c) of security since only an authorized person could break the seal. In this case it is God and He has promised not to do so.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.

As a result, Paul declares that even the carnal Christians at Corinth belonged to God as a result of this finished transaction of their salvation in Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

The Holy Spirit as an Earnest
This forms another picture of what the Holy Spirit is to believers in Christ. As an earnest agreement on a house is a buyer’s pledge to purchase and pay the full price for the house, so the Holy Spirit is God’s personal pledge and guarantee of our security promising us there is more to come: we will receive the ultimate or eternal blessings of our salvation. The term “down payment” in the following verses refer to an earnest agreement-like pledge.

Ephesians 1:14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.

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Although the author uses the term ‘Spirit baptism’, above, to mean something different to a Pentecostal theology’s understanding, the content of that section is quite sound. The article continues at http://bible.org/seriespage/assurance-eternal-security

For the earnest Bible student the article also addresses the “problem” passages that some have erroneously pulled out to support their view of eternal insecurity. It is a good read, and will assure the believer of the mighty power of God present in their lives.

May the LORD bless each of us, as we acknowledge him for who he really is.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 15, 2011

It is only as we permit the Word of God alone to teach and influence us that we will indeed be able to KNOW the Lord Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour.

By Wayne on Jul 17, 2011

Hello Kevin,

Please permit me to edit my previous comment. After proofreading it became apparent that I had made a couple of errors due to my being distracted.

Hello Kevin,

the Bible verse “tirade,” you refer to is an attempt to allow the BIBLE to speak for itself against the tsunami of false, man made and demonically inspired religious nonsense which has invaded Biblical christianity as Philip Powell refers to in the introduction to this blog.

By avoiding the use of personal opinion, philosophy or populist ideology it is my intention that the clear teaching of the Word of God (when permitted to speak for itself) alone will highlight the absolute nonsense being allowed to masquerade as christianity at this time in history which the Bible refers to as the Last Days.

The book Gathering the Faithful Remnant was co-authored by Phillip Powell, whose blog site we are on, and provides very interesting insights into the history and nature of the invasion of christianity by this demonic latter rain nonsense.

May I suggest you ask the moderator to speak to Philip himself about how you might obtain a copy.

By Wayne on Jul 17, 2011

Truer words of warning have NEVER been spoken:

In the early Church the Apostles kept the deceivers and false apostles out.

They did this by publicly identifying the heretics and warning the sheep of their false doctrines.

Because of the diligence of
the true apostles of our Lord, the false apostles and their followers were forced to leave the Church.

The Apostle John writes:

“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many anti christs have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.” (1 John 2:18,19 NKJV)

Today we face just the opposite situation in that the false prophets and apostles are in the majority in many churches.

When they gain inroads into a church it’s more likely that only a minority will reject their false doctrines, revelations, and counterfeit “anointing” and stand on the Bible, being forced to go out from among the apostate majority.

Hold fast to the end for God is testing faithfulness rather than novelty in these deceptively dangerous last days.

By Wayne on Jul 17, 2011

Universalism which puts people at ease about their spiritual condition regardless of what they believe or how they behave and in spite of repeated scriptural warnings is clearly one of the doctrines of demons we are warned to avoid.

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

These warnings are particularly applicable to the Great Apostasy which has permeated christianity like vermin in a wheat silo.

It is therefore imperative that we HEED the warnings and HOLD FAST to what the BIBLE clearly teaches so that we may remain faithful and therefore part of the “faithful remnant” until the very end.

By Wayne on Jul 18, 2011

It is a very real concern that so many people have accepted a Universalistic doctrine in considering the ultimate destiny of fellow humans. I heartily agree with you, Wayne, that this false doctrine is causing a false sense of security among all sorts of people.
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With the mindset of many people having changed over time to what now is called Post-Modernism their general attitude about truth has become: “What is true is what’s true for you, and my truth may be different to your truth, but it’s still truth - and we’re all living in truth”. I encountered this approach when working in an agency of the Uniting Church from a coordinator who had a terminal illness, when I talked with her about her preparation for eternity. The reality that truth cannot be self-contradictory and that the Bible is the written revelation from God and full of hope, did not go down very well. A belief that we have done well in life and good to others so we merit a wonderful life in the hereafter, falls short of the revealed truth and unfortunately misses the whole point of history - that God the Son became incarnate, manifested the works of the Father, and became the penal substitute for all who believe in him. There is no other way available to secure a place in heaven - for he is ‘the Way, the Truth, and the Life’. It is the way the Father has appointed to bring many sons and daughters into glory.
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And a particular concern is the small group of Christians who are adopting a Universalistic view via their embracing of what is known as Ultimate Reconciliation or as Reconciliation Awareness. It doesn’t deny that there is a Hell, but regards it as time-limited, and whether it lasts 10,000 years or a 100,000 yrs it will eventually cease to exist and all people will be recconciled to God somehow - because God has so much love for people, they reason, and Jesus is the Saviour of ALL the world. Two friends adopted this view a couple of years ago and eventually left their evangelical church in turbulent circumstances, and stopped evangelising unsaved acquaintances (he had always been very evangelistic in the few years I’d known him) and now are just on a very long holiday moving around NZ. In trying to explain biblical teaching with the husband, he ended up shouting at me and stormed out of our apartment, refusing to acknowledge that Jesus himself taught on the eternal torment of those in Hell. Universalism is anything but loving when it doesn’t warn people of the consequence of rejecting Christ Jesus, and in fact it is an error and a heresy.
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We are commanded, all people, everywhere, to repent and believe the Good News and faithfully follow Jesus the King of Kings.
May we faithfully remain ready to explain the reason for this great hope that is within us, pointing others to the LORD.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 23, 2011

Brother Kevin,
Thanks for your 12/7 comment. FYI the small potato was transmogrified into mashed potato during certain conversations here which have thankfully since been deleted. As for other potatoes, they can (bubble &) squeak for themselves.

Each day is a gift from above. I am thankful for the opportunity the day brings.

God bless you, mate.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 23, 2011

MORE ABOUT ASSURANCE OF THE ETERNAL SECURITY OF CHRISTIANS

It is right for Bible-believing Christians to struggle with some areas of the scriptures for we have, after all, been instructed to study them and show God’s approval by rightly handling thes scriptures i.e. rightly understanding, interpreting and applying them.

I. Gordon (at www.jesusplusnothing.com ) has made some comments on passages that seem to say the reverse of the Biblical teaching of eternal security, & some of them appear below:

Question 1: What does ‘falling away’ or ‘turning away’ mean to a saved person?

In looking up these verses again, I found it interesting that the term ‘fall away’ was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a ‘falling away’. (see Matt 26:31-35) Obviously, this is not a loss of salvation. For the true believer it may involve a temporary period of backsliding or time of being out of fellowship with God. It is times when for one reason or another, the believer is having difficulty in his Christian walk. The believer would not however deny what they believe in their heart, even though their walk would not match what they believe. But note that even though Jesus said they would ‘fall away’, in the very same context, he also said to Peter that he had prayed that his faith would not fail and when he returned, to strengthen his brethren. (Luke 22:32) In other words, true believers may fall at times but their faith does not fail because Jesus intercedes for them. Concerning this intercession we are told ‘hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him (true salvation), since He always lives to make intercession for them.’ And when do true believers need Jesus’ intercession more but when they are struggling? See also John 17:6-12 concerning this intercession by Jesus for His believers. In this ‘High Priestly’ prayer, Jesus makes it clear that the ones that God has given Him he keeps safe! See also Rom 8:32-34 where Jesus’ intercession is used as one of the points to show that we cannot be separated from the love of Christ.

In contrast to this are several other passages which speak of apostasy. The first falling away is temporary and is in regard to their walk. For a true believer however, they will never deny their faith in the Lord Jesus. And, like the true prodigal son, they will return. Apostasy however, as mentioned in Heb 6:6 and 1 Tim 4:1 amongst other verses, speaks of a falling away from the faith - an abandonment of the faith and truth of the gospel. This is prophesied to increase greatly in the end times. As Heb 6:4-7 states this is done by those who very much look like they are genuine saved believers. They have known everything that is needed to be saved; they have felt the conviction and drawing of the Holy Spirit, maybe even seen other signs that enable them to make a genuine decision. They may even go along with Christian teaching for a while… but they become apostates… prodigal pigs who turn away from it all, deny the truth and go back to the mud.

Concerning apostasy (deliberately falling away and turning from the truth of the faith) William MacDonald writes in the Believers Bible Commentary - ‘Apostasy is a sin which is only committed by unbelievers, not by those who are deceived, but by those who knowingly, and wilfully and maliciously turn from the truth… Apostasy should not be confused with backsliding. A true believer may wander very far from Christ. Through sin his fellowship with God is shattered. But he can be restored to full fellowship as he confesses and forsakes his sin.’

Titus 1:10-16 also talks of those that ‘turn from the truth’ calling them ‘empty talkers and deceivers’… those who are ‘defiled and unbelieving’ and it says that they profess to know God but by their deeds they deny Him.’ This is no sheep of God we are talking about here. More like a wolf!

… continued…..

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 23, 2011

… continued… and jumping forward…

Question 4: What about Hebrews 10:25-30? What is the ‘wilful sin’ mentioned and is this a loss of salvation?

Heb 10:25-30 is basically a parallel passage to the Heb 6 passage previously mentioned. We should always remember that Hebrews was written to Hebrews – that is, Jewish believers in the first century. That doesn’t make it irrelevant for us, but we should at least read it in its first century context. For a Jew to become a Christian in the first century (and now!) basically meant the death sentence as far as their relationship with their family was concerned. They lost any right to an inheritance and came under extreme pressure (including physical persecution) to leave Christ and go back to Judaism. And that is what many did, even though for a while they looked like true believers. Read Heb 10:25-30 with this in mind. The wilful sin mentioned in verse 26 is linked to the verse before it because it starts with ‘for if..’. The verse before it is speaking of leaving the assembly of believers. The wilful sin that this passage talks about is leaving Christ and going back to Judaism, which was happening. Under Judaism, and what they were going back to, there no longer remained a sacrifice for sin (vs 26) (because God didn’t accept animal sacrifices anymore after Jesus had died for all sin, for all time.) But only judgement could be expected (vs 27 – it is also interesting that Hebrews was written only a couple of years before the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, and the whole Jewish sacrificial system in 70AD by the Romans. Some believe the judgements warned about in the book of Hebrews were speaking of this event.) They had trampled the Son of God underfoot because they had said that His death wasn’t enough or didn’t mean anything and they would carry on with their Jewish sacrifices. This also is how you insult the Spirit of grace. You don’t insult the Spirit of grace by seeing your great need of grace. But you do insult the Spirit of grace when you wilfully turn your back on that grace and go ahead with your own laws and works as an effort to have your own righteousness and means of salvation under the old Jewish laws and sacrificial system.

Like … the passage in chapter 6, the writer of Hebrews doesn’t leave true believers with this thought of judgement. In chapter 6, at the end of the warning he wrote: ‘But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you (the true believers), things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.’ After the warning in chapter 10, the writer gives the same encouragement to true believers when he writes: ‘But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction (the professing believers who became apostate), but of those who have faith (true believers) to the preserving of the soul.’
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Maybe reading the other passages that the author discusses (on the Jesus Plus Nothing website) will bring believers strength in their faith in Christ Jesus and his mighty grip on their lives. In gazing on HIM, the divine Redeemer, our false fears of losing our redemption are dissolved. May the LORD bless each reader.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 23, 2011

DICTIONARY DEFINITION of APOSTASY

a·pos·ta·sy   
[uh-pos-tuh-see]
–noun, plural -sies.
a total desertion of or departure from one’s religion, principles, party, cause, etc

CLEARLY - You have to be in the faith to depart from the faith

By Wayne on Jul 23, 2011

Consequently it is crucial for all who may be deceived in this point to reiterate that any notion of universalism which is a perversion which puts people at ease about their spiritual condition regardless of what they believe or how they behave and in spite of repeated scriptural warnings is clearly one of the doctrines of demons we are warned to avoid.

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

These warnings are particularly applicable to the Great Apostasy which has permeated christianity like vermin in a wheat silo.

It is therefore imperative that we HEED the warnings and HOLD FAST to what the BIBLE clearly teaches so that we may remain faithful and therefore part of the “faithful remnant” until the very end.

To assume that anything goes with GOD is to clearly disregard the clear teachings of scripture. This perversion has enabled the propagators of this Latter Rain filth to gain a foothold of acceptability among previously born again bible believing christians.

Tragically the consequence for the APOSTATE is eternal damnation.

By Wayne on Jul 23, 2011

Disobedience alienates man from God.

Genesis 3:1 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, …….?

Questioning the Word of God was the way Satan tempted Eve into forfeiting paradise and is the way mankind has repeatedly been duped into forfeiting eternity with HIM by accepting FALSE religion rather the the ONE TRUE MEANS OF SALVATION WHICH THE BIBLICAL JESUS CHRIST HAS ALONE provided.

1 Samuel 15:23

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee ….

By Wayne on Jul 23, 2011

According to Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, the definition of obey is:

1. To give ear to; to execute the commands of; to yield submission to; to comply with the orders of;
2. To submit to the authority of; to be ruled by;
3. To yield to the impulse, power, or operation of; as, a ship obeys her helm.

Isaiah 40:

6 A voice says, “Cry out.”
And I said, “What shall I cry?”

“All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field.
7 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
because the breath of the LORD blows on them.
Surely the people are grass.

8 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the WORD of our God stands forever.”

Ps. 138:2:

“For You have magnified Your WORD above all
Your name.”

The Psalmist asks Psalm 119:9
“How can a young man cleanse his way?
He answers,
“By taking heed according to Your Word.

Just a few verses later
v:11 “Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.”

God’s word keeps us from sin and keeps us on his path, as the Word is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path (Ps.119:105) in a dark world.

Ps. 43:3 Oh, send out Your light and Your truth! Let them lead me. As we read the Psalms we grasp the importance of the Word.

To disregard God’s Word that is holy, pure and absolutely true is to defame God’s name and character.

It is to bring ruin upon our walk.

So it MUST ALWAYS BE the main focal point in our daily walk with Christ.

By Wayne on Jul 24, 2011

Those whose names are “written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” are secure (Revelation 17:8), all true believers are eternally secure in Christ, being kept by the power of God’s grace.
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CAN A SAVED PERSON EVER BE LOST? Is it possible for people saved by the grace of God, chosen in everlasting love, redeemed by the blood of Christ, and born again by the power of the Holy Spirit, to be lost at last? Can those who are “called, chosen, and faithful” perish? Can those people, any of them, ever be lost? Can one of God’s elect go to hell? Is it possible for one of Christ’s redeemed ones to yet suffer the wrath of God? Is it possible for one who is called by the Holy Spirit, regenerated and born again by almighty grace, to fall away, draw back, depart from Christ, and perish at last? These questions must be answered by the Word of God alone, and the answer is emphatically, unconditionally, unequivocally, “No!” It is not possible for a saved person to be lost. If we hear nothing but the testimony of Holy Scripture, we cannot question the eternal security of all God’s saints.

“The righteous shall hold on his way, and he that hath clean hands shall be stronger and stronger” (Job 17:9). “The Lord will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance” (Psalm 94:14). “They that trust in the Lord shall be as Mt. Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth forever. As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the Lord is round about his people from henceforth even forever” (Psalm 125:1-2). Read Psalm 89:19-37. “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them to do them good. I will put my fear in their hearts. They shall not depart from me” (Jeremiah 32:40). Our Savior promises, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30). In Romans 8:28-39, the apostle Paul tells us that God is for us in his sovereign providence (v. 28), in his saving purpose (vv. 29-30), and in his substitutionary provision (vv. 32-39). And “if God be for us, who can be against us?” “God shall confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord” (I Corinthians 1:8-9). “Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it” (I Thessalonians 5:24). Read I Peter 1:2-5.
All of these texts of Scripture tell us one thing: God’s elect are eternally secure in Christ. They shall never perish. Salvation is the work of God alone. And that which God does is done forever (Eccles. 3:14).

WHAT IS THE BASIS OF OUR ASSURANCE AND SECURITY IN CHRIST?

The perfections of God’s character guarantee the eternal security of his elect (Lam. 3:21-25).His immutability forbids any change in the objects of his love or in his attitude toward us (Mal. 3:6; Job 23:13; Jas. 1:17). His omnipotence means that none can pluck us from our Savior’s hands (John 10:28-29; I Pet. 1:5; Jude 24-25). God’s mercy will never turn to wrath. His love will never become hatred. His faithfulness will never cease. His goodness cannot fail. His justice, having once been satisfied for the sins of his elect, can never demand satisfaction from those for whom Christ died (Rom. 3:24-26).

…continued…

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 30, 2011

…cont’d…

The eternal purpose of God, which cannot be altered, frustrated, or defeated, guarantees the eternal security of his elect. The purpose of God according to election must stand. He will do all his pleasure. And his pleasure is the eternal salvation of his elect (Isa. 46:9-13; Eph. 1:3-14; II Thess. 2:13; John 6:37-40).

The promises of God, which are yea and amen in Christ, guarantee the eternal security of all believers (Heb. 13:5). He promises eternal life to all who believe (John 3:14-16). He promises to forgive all our sins (I John 1:9).

The finished work of Christ guarantees the eternal security of God’s elect. Christ has redeemed us (Gal. 3:13; Heb. 9:12). We cannot be unredeemed! Christ has sanctified us (Heb. 10:10-14). We cannot be unsanctified! Christ has justified us (Rom. 3:24). We cannot be unjustified! Christ has made us complete (Col. 2:10). We cannot be made incomplete! Christ has made us to be seated in heaven (Eph. 2:6). We cannot be unseated! Christ has blessed us (Eph. 1:3). We cannot be unblessed! Christ has “made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light” (Col 1:12). We cannot be made unmeet!

The present intercession of Christ as our advocate in heaven guarantees the eternal security of God’s elect. His prayers on our behalf cannot be denied (John 17:24). His advocacy cannot fail (I John 2:1-2).

The seal of the Holy Spirit, which cannot be broken, guarantees our eternal security in Christ (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30). The seal preserves. The seal proves ownership. The seal is the earnest of our inheritance. The basis of our assurance and security in Christ is not, in any way, dependent upon or determined by us. The whole basis of our security is our God, who he is, what he has done, and what he is doing for us. Our good works do not make us more secure. Our security is Christ! The security and welfare of the sheep is the responsibility of the Shepherd. Our relationship with the eternal God does in great measure determine what we do.

WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO DO DEPART FROM CHRIST AND FALL AWAY? I do not deny that many do depart from Christ, forsake the gospel, fall away from the faith and leave the church of God. Every pastor, every church, every believer is painfully aware of many who once walked in our company who now have left us. Our Lord experienced it (John 6:66). The apostles experienced it (II Tim. 4:10). And we experience it today. Men and women depart from Christ and fall away for many reasons. The love of the world destroys some (Matt. 13:22). Trials overwhelm many (Matt. 13:21). Self-will has destroyed multitudes, like Judas. False doctrine gets some (Gal. 5:1-4). And gradual apostasy has claimed many souls by satan’s craftiness (Heb. 10:25-26). Yet, it must be understood that those who depart from us, for whatever reason, never were truly of us (I John 2:19). It is one thing to learn doctrine, but another thing to learn Christ. It is one thing to have an emotional experience, but another thing to be born again. It is one thing to change your life, but another thing to bow to the rule of Christ.

WHAT ARE WE TO LEARN FROM THESE THINGS? Carefully read Hebrews 10:35-39, and learn these things:
1.There is a false faith by which many are deceived. (Matthew 7:22-23.)
2.True faith will persevere to the end.
3.”Salvation is of the Lord!” (Jonah 2:9)

Since salvation is of the Lord, we know that the salvation of God’s elect is a matter of absolute certainty and that all who trust Christ are infallibly secure in him (Phil. 1:6).

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 30, 2011

Knowing the LORD God has given us eternal security (whether or not a Christian believes he has this assurance), it is important to consider this vital matter: is eternal security a “license to sin”?
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www.gotquestions.org makes these edifying comments about this matter:
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The most frequent objection to the doctrine of eternal security is that it supposedly allows people to live any way that they want and still be saved. While this may seem to be “technically” true, it is not true in reality. A person who has truly been redeemed by Jesus Christ will not live a life characterised by continuous, wilful sin.
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We must draw a distinction between how a Christian should live and what a person must do in order to receive salvation. The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; John 14:6). The moment a person truly believes in Jesus Christ, he or she is saved and secure in that salvation. Salvation is not gained by faith, but then maintained by works. The apostle Paul addresses this issue in Galatians 3:3. If we are saved by faith, our salvation is also maintained and secured by faith. We cannot earn our own salvation. Therefore, neither can we earn the maintenance of our salvation. It is God who maintains our salvation (Jude 24; John 10:28-29; Romans 8:38-39).
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Any denial of eternal security is, in its essence, a belief that we must maintain our own salvation by our own good works and efforts. This is completely antithetical to salvation by grace. We are saved because of Christ’s merits, not our own (Romans 4:3-8). To claim that we must obey God’s Word or live a godly life to maintain our salvation is saying that Jesus’ death was not sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus’ death was absolutely sufficient to pay for all of our sins—past, present, and future, pre-salvation and post-salvation (Romans 5:8; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Does this mean that a Christian can live any way he wants to and still be saved? This is essentially a hypothetical question, because the Bible makes it clear that a true Christian will not live “any way he wants to.” Christians are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). Christians demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), not the acts of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). First John 3:6-9 clearly states that a true Christian will not live in continual sin. In response to the accusation that grace promotes sin, the apostle Paul declared, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1-2).

Eternal security is not a license to sin. Rather, it is the security of knowing that God’s love is guaranteed for those who trust in Christ. Knowing and understanding God’s tremendous gift of salvation accomplishes the opposite of giving a license to sin. How could anyone, knowing the price Jesus Christ paid for us, go on to live a life of sin (Romans 6:15-23)? How could anyone who understands God’s unconditional and guaranteed love for those who believe, take that love and throw it back in God’s face? Such a person is demonstrating not that eternal security has given him a license to sin, but rather that he or she has not truly experienced salvation through Jesus Christ. “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him” (1 John 3:6).

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Dan Vander Lugt , on www.rbc.org explains it this way:-

One of the biggest mistakes we can make about our own security in Christ is to base the reality of our salvation on our feelings. Our emotions are affected by so many different things that it is misleading to base our security on them. Each of us grows up in an environment that leaves us with emotional scars. Some people feel anxious and tense because of events in their past. Others are afflicted with anxiety because of neurological disorders or imbalances in body chemistry.

Since salvation is based on belief in Christ and a choice to trust His death on our behalf, the road to assurance is not found in our feelings but in acknowledging and trusting what God has done.

As we voluntarily place ourselves under the influence of Christ and trust His Spirit to guide us toward behavior that is consistent with our confession of faith, we will experience spiritual healing–healing that will extend even to our feelings and emotions. This, however, is a gradual process, and one that may involve many setbacks.

It helps to share one’s doubts with a Christian friend, pastor, or counselor. Just talking to another person can help us see ourselves and our situation more clearly. We can also be comforted by the many Bible passages that emphasize the security of believers in Christ (eg. John 10:28-30; 13:1 ; Romans 8:29-39 ; 1 Corinthians 3:15 ; 12:13 ; Ephesians 1:13; 4:20 ; Jude 24 ).

Although the Bible doesn’t teach that believers can lose their salvation, real believers can backslide and lose their joy. The New Testament gives us many examples of believers who drew back from their fellowship with Jesus Christ: the disciples ( Matthew 26:56 ); Peter ( Matthew 26:69-75 ); the Christians in Corinth ( 2 Corinthians 12:20-21 ); and the Asian churches ( Revelation 2:4,14-15,20 ).

But we should distinguish between backsliding and apostasy–departing from the faith. A true Christian can backslide, be disciplined by God, and repent and return ( Hebrews 12:6 ; Revelation 2:5 ). A person who has merely professed faith without a genuine encounter with Christ can depart, prosper outwardly, and never return. The apostle John said that some who had left the fellowship of believers and were now teaching false doctrine showed by their actions that they never really belonged to Christ ( 1 John 2:19 ). It may be impossible for us to make a judgment about whether the person is a backsliding Christian or an impostor. Sometimes, only time will tell.

The doctrine of eternal security as taught in Scripture is intended to comfort true Christians who want to live faithfully for Jesus Christ. People who once professed faith but are now living sinfully should not be comforted by the assumption that a profession of faith guarantees their salvation. We gain nothing by examining the nature of their past “decision.” They need to soberly consider their lifestyle in the light of passages like 1 John 3:4-9 . If they are genuinely saved, God will discipline them ( Hebrews 12:6 ).

By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 30, 2011

I am quite comfortable with this representation of eternal security Paul.
Clearly the Bible indicates that it applies to the elect in the sense that God will not allow them to be lost.
I am very concerned however about people I have respected as christians for most of my life and whom I once considered to be surely part of that very elect BUT who have tragically allowed themselves to be deceived by this Great Apostasy which has overrun the church.
Although I intend, by the Grace of God to remain faithful to His Word and to encourage ALL whom I may be able to influence to do likewise, to the best of my ability until the very end it is increasingly difficult to find a bible believing christian church to belong to.
This raises the obvious question then of just who are the very elect and why are they granted spiritual discernment when so many other seemingly committed christians are prepared to accept these FALSE christs so easily.

As warned so frequently throughout the Bible the FALSE religion these poor deluded souls have chosen to commit themselves to only has power to deceive it has NO power to save.

The offence to the Truly Born Again Bible Believing christian, of course, is that the leaders of this occultic New Age religion are falsely presenting their teachings as “christian.”

Clearly to those graciously granted even basic spiritual discernment this is the Great Delusion which God has sent to test those who do NOT love the TRUTH of HIS WORD but have pleasure in unrighteousness (false teachings and false christs).

By Wayne on Jul 30, 2011

Matthew 7:

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

This Bible WANTING is so crucial for ALL who have allowed themselves to be deceived by gnostic infiltrators perverting the Word of God to establish occultic New Age religion as a form of neo-christianity.

False religion has NO power to save even if it does misrepresent itself as christianity.

By Wayne on Jul 31, 2011

HOW CAN WE HELP A BACKSLIDER?
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The Book by James was written to the dispersed Jewish people of the First Century - a people whose history had included very many backslidings - and he writes to this issue in James 5:19-20.
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What does the Bible say in other passages?
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Jeremiah 8:5 NKJV Why has this people slidden back, Jerusalem, in a perpetual backsliding? They hold fast to deceit, they refuse to return. Even though Israel committed “perpetual backsliding,” God never gave up on her.
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Jeremiah 3:14, 22 NKJV Return, O backsliding children, says the LORD; for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. 22 Return, you backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Indeed we do come to You, for You are the LORD our God.
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Hosea 14:4 NKJV I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely, for My anger has turned away from him.
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What causes this backsliding?
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1. Backsliding Begins in the HEART
Proverbs 14:14 NKJV The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways.
Backslide means “to go back” or “turn back or away.”
2. Backsliding Results from “WANDERING” from God’s Word. James describes a backslider as “one who wanders from the truth.”
Galatians 6:1
Hebrews 2:1 NKJV Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
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Reclaiming the backslider
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1. It is a Christian’s responsibility, v. 19b
Galatians 6:1 You who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
“Restore” means to mend, as a torn net or broken bone.
Jude 22-23 NLT And you must show mercy to those whose faith is wavering. 23 Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives.
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Two-fold result:
(1) Save a soul from death, v. 20b
(2) Cover a multitude of sins, v. 20c
Proverbs 10:12 NKJV Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all sins.
1 Peter 4:8 NKJV And above all things have fervent love for one another, for love will cover a multitude of sins.
Proverbs 16:6 NLT Unfailing love and faithfulness make atonement for sin. By fearing the Lord, people avoid evil.
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Reaching out in love to rescue the erring one is an integral part of the great mission of the Christian today!
Proverbs 11:30 NKJV The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and he who wins souls is wise.
Daniel 12:3 NKJV Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Aug 2, 2011

The backsliders are very comfortable in their back slidings.

I have found that they love the lies being promulgated by the gnostic infiltrators and therefore seem to be unreachable.

Only the Holy Spirit is able to open the spiritual eyes to the TRUTH of the Gospel and the false teachings of these wolves that we are warned of repeatedly.

If God does NOT build HIS house it is on very shaky ground indeed.

All else but Holy Spirit inspired determination to remain faithful to HIS Word and the demonstration of His power to save in spite of wholesale apostasy is futile.

By Wayne on Aug 3, 2011

Sadly this occultic filth seems to have invaded most if not all churches which like to refer to themselves as christian.

Consequently the faithful christian MUST be prepared to leave the apostate environment of the church they may have considered their spiritual home for many years. STANDING firmly on the WORD OF GOD they must effectively exile themselves from former friends and even family for the sake of their relationship with the ONE TRUE GOD who has provided ONE means of salvation alone.

So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:33)

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26–27)

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (Luke 16:13)

Jesus is describing a hate that is different from the loathing one has for a mortal enemy. The question is one of loyalty: who is first and what is most important. Jesus is calling for first place in the heart and service of his disciples. Yes, he is to occupy a place above our family members and our own lives.

He that loveth father or mother friend (or in these days of wholesale apostasy long time church environment) more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (Matthew 10:37–39)

We MUST be prepared to forsake all in favour of faithfulness to HIS WORD alone.

By Wayne on Aug 3, 2011

The call to follow Christ as his disciple is a natural part of the direction of life for every person granted this great gift of Salvation. It is a strange teaching when God’s people are led to believe that these are quite separate, and some regard those who embrace this discipleship as ‘the very keen’ or ‘the spiritual’ and exclude themselves from this as a result. When the spiritually hungry are not fed the whole Gospel their understanding of Christ’s present kingship (and the priority of their citizenship in his kingdom, over their other priorities) is relegated to others who seem to them to be more spiritual.
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This is quite a shame, for we all stand “at the foot of Christ’s cross” and that place is level ground for all of us. We are all in the same position needing God’s grace - and hearing the full scope of the Good News of Jesus the Christ.
I get bothered when people only cling to a singular aspect of this good (indeed, very good) news and then continue in a very me-centred life, behaving as if Christian living is a side-salad in the ‘meal’ of life. I regret that a friend has chosen this approach since moving his factory to southern China. And I regret that a “Pastor” with his upbeat church on Australia’s Gold Coast, just 50km south, has been publically warned against by our State Government’s Office of Fair Trading, as a scam artist selling non-existent solar power generating systems. What a perverted version of life following the Master is that - didn’t this big-potato ‘minister’ read the New Testament and its teachings on being content ??
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The full gospel message is there in the NT for all to read. And in his gracious revelation the Sovereign LORD has also foreshadowed and prefigured this Good News in the Old Testament also. We need to keep feeding our minds from the divinely-inspired revelation of Christ himself and the holy scriptures.
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Let’s keep praying for the reclamation of those we care for. God bless you.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Aug 4, 2011

This tragic stste of affairs is summed up very well throughout the entire scriptures but this verse is a very good example!!

Isaiah 5 20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

By Wayne on Aug 4, 2011

Those brothers and sisters of a Reformed theological persuasion are also very concerned at the watered-down understandings, that are increasingly popular, of God and HIS ways. It is always of benefit to step back a little and reflect on the large picture. Thes excerpts are worth considering:

“Most of the 21st century church despises doctrine. They simply hate to learn. They would much rather “feel” their way through a church service than listen to sound preaching. It may not necessarily be that they hate to learn, as if everyone hated such a thing (something they engage in every moment of every day) but surely their disability to think properly lends to their incapability to sit through a preaching service of two hours. (And such a length of time was not uncommon in the puritan era – as a matter of fact, many were just getting started at that point.) I suppose that it would be politically correct to say they are “mentally challenged.” We often use this phrase as a joke, but when it concerns the everlasting abode of the never dying soul and the theology they believe, then it is no laughing matter. This is not something profound or new. Far be it for a modern congregation to heartily cling to sound doctrine and teaching in this day and age of relative thought and its strategy towards the dissolution of absolute truth. If you are among the remnant of God who has been so blessed to find a biblically sound church, peace be unto to, and happiness be granted to your soul by the Lord Jesus! But for the rest of the church, they are steeped in false doctrine taught by false “prophets.” Ignorance is not bliss here. Most of the time the church has lent itself to this rejection of truth because they have not learned how to think. People simply do not have the skills to think rightly. Ask them what the law of non-contradiction is and they could not tell you, though they follow it all day long. But their long settled ignorance affords no excuse to beginning anew even now. The saying “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks” is not true for the Christian walk. The Christian should be learning about the Lord Jesus and the doctrines of the Bible every day.
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“In this plethora of sound doctrine to learn throughout the Bible, there are some doctrines which are certainly more important than others. For instance, the teachings concerning the genealogical lines of the Old Testament are not as important as the New Testament doctrine of adoption…
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“However, in the sea of doctrine which we are all to be familiar with throughout the Word of God, there may be a doctrine which is more important than any other; one which is the most important of all. Some may vouchsafe for the atonement. I must admit, the atonement is crucial, critical and the crux of saving grace for the believer. But, the importance of a doctrine does not simply fall on the kind of doctrine or the content of the doctrine, but also on the need of the doctrine as well. Eschatology is very important, but not as important as the need to understand the atonement. Today, I believe, as it was in the sixteenth century, the need to regain lost ground in understanding the doctrine of Justification by faith alone has come to the forefront. Most people, even those in Reformed circles, those who claim Luther as a hero, have little to say about justification…
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“It has been neglected in the school setting, in the home study groups, and in the pulpit. It is a vital doctrine that we cannot do without. Its urgency dictates the difference between one going to heaven and one going to hell. It is of crucial significance and should be rightly understood by those who claim Christ as their banner. If justification is misunderstood, being the pillar upon which the church stands or falls, then what will the rest of our doctrine look like? Will it be a nominal Christianity? Would it be works righteousness? I think it would. To understand that we must be clothed in the righteousness of Christ for safety in the Day of Judgment is of vital import.
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“Without understanding it we will not truly perceive the great wonder of the grace of God in Christ. It is my hope that …such a glorious truth may be exalted beyond measure, that it may bring a great amount of glory to the one true and living God of the Ages. Let us think rightly about one of the most, if not the most important doctrine in the entire bible, the Doctrine of Justification by Faith alone.”

C. Matthew McMahon - www.apuritansmind.com

What can we make of doctrines that are adrift from the direct linkage to the singularly most important event in human history ?

By Paul, a mashed potato on Aug 7, 2011

Paul,

I am convinced that bible believing christians are completely comfortable with ALL 5 solas.

In the context of this blog site, however, it is essential to reiterate that apostasy leads the apostate away from the ONE means of salvation provided and thereby results in forfeiture of salvation.

Sinful behaviour ALWAYS requires repentance or turning back to the TRUTH in doctrine and behaviour. The apostate MAY repent but but will NOT be saved unless they DO repent.

The Bible teaches that there is ONLY one way to be saved and that is by faith in the ONE TRUE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST. This provides NO room whatsoever for the occultic new age christ of the gnostic infiltrators that we have ALL been warned of MORE than adequately.

Sola scriptura is the teaching that the Bible is the only inspired and authoritative word of God, is the only source for Christian doctrine, and is accessible to all—that is, it is perspicuous and self-interpreting. IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS IT MEANS.

Sola fide is the teaching that justification (interpreted in Protestant theology as “being declared just by God”) is received by faith only, without any mixture of or need for good works, though in classical Protestant theology, saving faith is always evidenced, but NOT determined by good works.

Sola gratia is the teaching that salvation comes by divine grace or “unmerited favor” only, not as something merited by the sinner. This means that salvation is an unearned gift from God for Jesus’ sake.

Solus Christus is the teaching that Christ is the only mediator between God and man, and that there is salvation through no other (hence, the phrase is sometimes rendered in the ablative case, solo Christo, meaning that salvation is “by Christ alone”)

Soli Deo gloria is the teaching that all glory is to be due to God alone, since salvation is accomplished solely through His will and action — not only the gift of the all-sufficient atonement of Jesus on the cross but also the gift of faith in that atonement, created in the heart of the believer by the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

By Wayne on Aug 8, 2011

Wayne,
The problem of apostasy is real and, as you so often point out, within many churches. I’m not sure that your phrases of “occultic filth” and “gnostic teaching” describe all the many forms of falsehood being published in the church these days. E.g. As Brother Kevin has pointed out, either above or on the ‘Pentecostal Disgrace’ post, Latter Rain movement theology has a very small influence in the overall perspective of teachings in the Church. There is a situation these days where tens of thousands and thousands of people meeting in Sacramentalist churches each Sunday are eating bread and drinking wine sincerely thinking this is what provides them salvation, and those who do this without faith are like the weeds among the wheat.

Above (through several comments from July onwards) I’ve placed information on the Bible’s teaching on salvation, not that of human traditions, and the regenerate believers’ sure security in this eternally. Our salvation is the work of the mighty Lord Jesus, the Christ-Messiah, and it is maintained by him. No-one can pluck themself or another out of his mighty grip!! Any Bible-believing Christian suggesting that “human-will is greater than God’s will” scenario, is putting forward a teaching contrary to that of the Lord Jesus himself, and should beware of their error.

We should distinguish between backsliding and apostasy – departing from the faith. This was in my comment of 30/7 just above. A true Christian can backslide, be disciplined by God, and repent and return ( Hebrews 12:6 ; Revelation 2:5 ). A person who has merely professed faith without a genuine encounter with Christ can depart, prosper outwardly, and never return. The apostle John said that some who had left the fellowship of believers and were now teaching false doctrine showed by their actions that they never really belonged to Christ ( 1 John 2:19 ). It may be impossible for us to make a judgment about whether the person is a backsliding Christian or an impostor. Sometimes, only time will tell.

The discipline of the Lord upon a straying Believer is a severe matter - we should never think it is not. We should never under-estimate the individualised measures of discipline that our loving and powerful heavenly Father is applying within the life of the straying sheep to bring them back, even when we see no evidence. And we persist in earnest prayer for them.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Aug 9, 2011

Paul,

The terms I use are most definitely applicable and correctly applied to what is going on!

By Wayne on Aug 9, 2011

Apostasy as a turning away from the TRUE faith removes the believer from the covering provided. Only repentance and a return to biblical christianity will restore the salvation that has been lost by the wilful and chronic disobedience of the apostate

Matthew 7 is particularly relevant

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

By Wayne on Aug 9, 2011

Your teaching fails to address the issue of those who deliberately forsake the one means of salvation in favour of another which the Bible so clearly represents as false christs.

These false christs and counterfeit christianity which people have chosen to align themselves with have NO power to save.

Their only power is deception.

By Wayne on Aug 9, 2011

Really, friend, the Christian scriptures are clear.

John 3:16.

John 5:24 - “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

John 6:37-40 - 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 10:26-30 - 26 “but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:1 - Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:28-39 - 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all — how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 11:29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

1 Corinthians 1:7-9 - 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

Ephesians 1:13-14 - 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession — to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 1:9 - who has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

1 Peter 1:3-5 - 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade — kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

The LORD God, Father, Son & Holy Spirit, will preserve the one who has received eternal life - there is no doubt about that. We are to pray and persevere in praying for any who might go astray, and to communicate the love of God to them as his servant. This does not mean acceptance of error they may currently believe nor of sinful behaviours. The New Testament is clear.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Aug 10, 2011

In the context of the great apostasy which has overrun the Church, which is what this blog site is really ALL about, what is the relevance of your persistent comments.
Just who are these people you are constantly referring to, how do you identify them and what is the value in knowing that God will preserve them if it is impossible to be certain about who they are because of this great delusion leading people into false religion Paul?

By Wayne on Aug 10, 2011

True discernment MUST be based ONLY on The Word of God..
There are many books today that claim to be the Word of God. The Koran, the Islam holy book, claims to be the Word of God. The Book of Mormon claims to be the Word of God. The Hindus believe the Bhagavad Vita is the source of eternal truth. Karl Marx, with his atheistic world view, claimed his writing, The Communist Manifesto, was the ultimate truth. Hitler had his Mein Kampf read religiously and this contributed significantly to the fanaticism of Nazi Germany. A former Pastor of mine responsible for bringing Latter Rain and New Age heresies into the church my family grew up in even claimed that he did not “care about bible doctrine, I only care about my anointing.”
TRUE Christians, however, believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the eternal source of truth we live by. How do we know the Bible is the Word of God? Can we actually prove that the Bible is truly the Word of God? The answer is YES!
John 15:18. Jesus warns his disciples about the attitude the world will have toward those who follow Him.
Jesus says, ‘If the world hates you, keep in mind it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own As it is you do not belong to the world. That is why the world hates you.
1 Peter 5:8 states, “Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.” This is why so many people are deceived into accepting FALSE religion.
What is vital to understand from these passages is the attitude of the world toward God. The world is in rebellion against God, and worldly people under the influence of Satan seek to destroy your faith.
In the light of the times we live in, it is important Christians not only know what they believe but also, why they believe what they believe. Failure to do this has resulted in acceptance of this great apostasy promoted by the gnostic infiltrators as christian and the subsequent forfeiture of salvation by those who once appeared to be part of the very elect set apart by God for salvation.

The great tragedy Apostasy causes must NOT be trivialised or ignored as this is the great challenge to all truly born again bible believing christians.

By Wayne on Aug 10, 2011

The evidence for the authority of the Bible falls into two major categories: internal evidence and external evidence. I mean by internal evidence, the evidence that is found within the Bible itself. By external evidence, I mean evidence that is found outside the Bible, such as archaeology, science, philosophy, and ancient manuscripts. Let us first consider the former, the internal evidences.
Self-proclamation
The first fact is that the Bible claims to be the Word of God. The authors knew they were writing the words of God, even though they often did not fully understand what they were writing. 2 Timothy 3:16 states, “All scripture is inspired by God.” 2 Peter 1:21 states, “No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” Jesus himself viewed the Old Testament as authoritative and quoted from it throughout his ministry.
Holy Spirit
Second, the Holy Spirit confirms to us that the Bible is the Word of God. John 16:13 states, “But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.” The Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin also assures the believer that the Bible is God’s Word.
Transforming Ability
Third, we have evidence concerning the transforming ability of the Bible. Hebrews 4:12 says, “The word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit.” Romans 12:2 says, “And be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” The Word of God and the Spirit of God actually transforms the lives of people. The Bible has changed the lives of murderers, drug addicts, top government officials, business people, and students, to name just a few people from every walk of life who have been transformed by the Bible. No other book can make such a claim. This is because the Bible is not a mere book on good living but is literally packed with power. It is the Word of God with the power to change lives.
These are only three internal evidences supporting the authority of the Bible. These of course are not the best arguments to use in a debate, but they are evidence. In the next section, we will study what I believe is the best internal argument.
Unity
We have studied three internal evidences that support the authority and divine inspiration of the Bible. In this section, we will study the fourth internal evidence: the unity of the Bible.
The Bible covers hundreds of topics, yet it does not contradict itself. It remains united in its theme. “Well, what’s so amazing about that?” you may ask. Consider these facts. First, the Bible was written over a span of fifteen hundred years. Second, it was written by more than forty men from every walk of life. For example, Moses was educated in Egypt and became a prophet over Israel. Peter was a simple fisherman, Solomon was a king, Luke was a doctor, Amos was a shepherd, and Matthew was a tax collector. All the writers were of vastly different occupations and backgrounds.
Third, it was written in many different places. The Bible was written on three different continents: Asia, Africa, and Europe. Moses wrote in the desert of Sinai, Paul wrote in a prison in Rome, Daniel wrote in exile in Babylon, and Ezra wrote in the ruined city of Jerusalem.
Fourth, it was written under many different circumstances. David wrote during a time of war, Jeremiah wrote at the sorrowful time of Israel’s downfall, Peter wrote while Israel was under Roman domination, and Joshua wrote while invading the land of Canaan.
Fifth, the writers had different purposes for writing. Isaiah wrote to warn Israel of God’s coming judgment on their sin, Matthew wrote to prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah, Zechariah wrote to encourage a disheartened Israel who had returned from Babylonian exile, and Paul wrote addressing problems in different Asian and European churches.
If we put all these factors together, the Bible was written over fifteen hundred years, by forty different authors, at different places, under various circumstances, and addressing a multitude of issues. It is amazing that with such diversity, there is such unity in the Bible. That unity is organized around one theme: God’s redemption of man and all of creation. Hundreds of controversial subjects are addressed and yet the writers do not contradict each other. The Bible is an incredible document.
Let me offer you a good illustration from apologist Josh McDowell. Take ten contemporary authors and ask them to write their viewpoints on one controversial subject. Would they all agree? No, we would have disagreements from one author to another. Now look at the authorship of the Bible. All these authors, from a span of fifteen hundred years, wrote on many controversial subjects, and they do not contradict one another.(1)
It seems one author guided these writers through the whole process: the Holy Spirit. 1 Peter 2:21 states, “No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” The unity of the Bible is just one more amazing proof of the divine inspiration and authority of the Bible.
External Evidence
In our study on the authority of the Bible, we have studied the internal evidences, which are found within the Bible itself. Except for the unity of the Bible, most of these arguments are subjective in nature. Now we will study the external evidences of the Bible, that is, evidences found outside the Bible.
Indestructibility
The first external evidence is the indestructibility of the Bible. The Bible is the most well-known book in the history of the world, and no book has been attacked more than it. Skeptics have tried to destroy the authority of the Bible for the last eighteen hundred years. It has undergone every kind of scrutiny possible from archaeology, science, philosophy, and computers. Yet, despite all these attacks, the Bible proves itself to be true again and again. Each time the skeptics have been wrong, and the Bible has proven itself true. Just the fact that the Bible has remained steadfast in its authority after two thousand years is another piece of evidence supporting its divine origin.
Archaeology
The second source of external evidence comes from archaeology. Middle Eastern archaeological investigations have proven the Bible to be true and unerringly accurate in its historical descriptions. Nelson Glueck, a renowned Jewish archaeologist, states, “No archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference.”(2)
Dr. William Albright, who was not a friend of Christianity and was probably the foremost authority in Middle East archaeology in his time, said this about the Bible: “There can be no doubt that archaeology has confirmed the substantial historicity of the Old Testament.”(3)
Here are a couple of examples of the historical accuracy of the Bible. A good example is found in Genesis 14. The Bible speaks of Abraham’s victory over Chedorlaomer and five Mesopotamian kings. For years, the critics stated that these accounts were fictitious and many people discredited the Bible. In the 1960s, however, the Ebla tablets were discovered in northern Syria. The Ebla kingdom was a powerful kingdom in the twentieth century B.C. The Ebla tablets are records of its history. Thousands of tablets have been discovered. What is important is that many of these tablets make a reference to all five cities of the plain proving the Genesis 14 account to be accurate.(4)
Another example is the story of Jericho recorded in the book of Joshua. For years skeptics thought the story of the falling walls of Jericho was a myth. However, in the 1930s, Dr. John Garstang made a remarkable discovery. He states, “As to the main fact, then, there remains no doubt: the walls fell outwards so completely, the attackers would be able to clamber up and over the ruins of the city.” This is remarkable because city walls fall inward, not outward.(5)
The March 5, 1990 issue of Time magazine featured an article called, “Score One For the Bible.” In it, archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon claimed Jericho’s walls had fallen suddenly. Many scholars feel this was caused by an earthquake which may also explain the damming of the Jordan. Additionally, grain was discovered, which shows the city was conquered quickly. This find adds credence to the biblical account. Further study by Brian Wood found the date of the fall of Jericho to match the Bible’s date.(6)
Here are just two great examples of archaeology authenticating the historical reliability of the Bible. No book is as ancient, and at the same time, as convincingly accurate as the Bible.
Indestructibility and archaeology are two external evidences for the Bible.
Prophecy
There are many more external evidences for the Bible, but I’ll just cover one more: evidence from prophecy. The Bible contains hundreds of prophecies which have come to pass. No book in history has ever come close to the Bible when it comes to fulfillment of prophecy.
The prophecies in the Bible are very specific and accurate. Nostradamus claims to have made hundreds of prophecies that have come true, but if you read his prophecies, you will find them to be vague and unclear. His symbols and language can be taken to mean a number of historical events. Unlike many such prophecies, biblical prophecy is very specific.
Here are some examples. In Ezekiel 26, which was written in 587 B.C., Ezekiel prophesies that the mighty city of Tyre would be destroyed. Tyre was made up of two parts, a mainland port city and an island city half a mile off shore. Ezekiel predicted mainland Tyre would be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, many nations would fight against her, the debris of the city would be thrown into the ocean, the city would never be found again, and fishermen would come there to lay their nets.
In 573 B.C., Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city of Tyre. Many of the refugees of the city sailed to the island and the island city of Tyre remained a powerful city. In 333 B.C., however, Alexander the Great laid siege to Tyre. Using the rubble of mainland Tyre, he built a causeway to the island city of Tyre. He then captured and completely destroyed the city.
Today, Tyre is a small fishing town where fishing boats come to rest and fisherman spread their nets. The great ancient city of Tyre to this day lies buried in ruins exactly as prophesied. If we were to calculate the odds of this event happening by chance, the figures would be astronomical. No, it was not by coincidence.(7)
Here’s another example. There are over three hundred prophecies made of Jesus in the Old Testament. Prophecies such as His place of birth, how he would die, His rejection by the nation of Israel, and so on. All these prophecies were made hundreds of years before Jesus ever came to earth. Because of the accuracy of the prophecies, many skeptics have believed that they must have been written after 70 A.D.–after the birth and death of Jesus, and the destruction of Jerusalem. They have thereby tried to deny that they are even prophecies.
However, in 1947, the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. These scrolls contained the book of Isaiah and other prophetic books. When dated, they were found to be written from 120 to 100 B.C.,(8) well before Jesus was born. It would have been an incredible accomplishment for Jesus to have fulfilled all three hundred prophecies. Some say these prophecies were fulfilled by chance, but the odds for this would be exceptionally large. It would take more faith to believe in that chance happening than in the fact that Jesus is God and these prophecies are divinely inspired.(9)
No book can match the Bible when it comes to prophecy. Understand that I have only touched the tip of the iceberg. There are hundreds of additional proofs for the Bible, yet I have only mentioned a few.

By Wayne on Aug 10, 2011

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

God has provided ONE means of salvation ONLY FALSE christs and false religion have NO power to save.

Apostasy or turning away from the Word of God and the TRUTH of HIS WORD clearly leads to forfeiture of salvation.

Paul also made it clear when he said that people who did not know Christ were “dead in your transgressions and sins” (Ephesians 2:1). They had no hope, and despite their religious beliefs, they did not have God (verse 12). There is only one Mediator, he said—only one way to get to God (1 Timothy 2:5). Jesus was the ransom that everyone needed (1 Timothy 4:10). If there were any other law, or any other path that offered salvation, then God would have done it (Galatians 3:21).

It is through Christ that the world is reconciled to God (Colossians 1:20-22). Paul was called to spread the gospel among the gentiles. Their religion, he said, was worthless (Acts 14:15). It is like the book of Hebrews says: Christ is not just better than other paths—he is effective whereas they are not (Hebrews 10:11). It is an all-or-nothing difference, not one of relative benefit.

The Christian teaching of exclusive salvation is based on what Jesus himself said, and what the Scriptures teach. This is tightly linked to who Jesus is, and our need for grace.

By Wayne on Aug 10, 2011

ULTIMATELY IT IS ESSENTIAL TO EMPHASISE the following statements of fact.

True discernment MUST be based ONLY on The Word of God..

There are many books today that claim to be the Word of God.
The Koran, the Islam holy book, claims to be the Word of God.
The Book of Mormon claims to be the Word of God.
The Hindus believe the Bhagavad Vita is the source of eternal truth.
Karl Marx, with his atheistic world view, claimed his writing,
The Communist Manifesto, was the ultimate truth.
Hitler had his Mein Kampf read religiously and this contributed significantly to the fanaticism of Nazi Germany.
A former Pastor of mine responsible for bringing these Latter Rain and New Age heresies into the church my family grew up in even claimed that he did not “care about bible doctrine, I only care about my anointing.”

TRUE Christians, however, believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the eternal source of truth we live and indeed die by!!!!!

By Wayne on Aug 10, 2011

We’ve looked at what the eternal security of a believer is, and is not, at how the members of the triune Godhead maintain this, and how believers in Christ Jesus variously respond to this wonderful grace to them. We’ve also considered the sticky business of the eternal security of the regenerate Christian who backslides - considering so far how faithful brothers and sisters can help to reclaim the wanderer, and that the LORD God is working in their lives to chasten them and bring them back into fellowship with himself. It is appropriate now to turn to the matter of what the backslidden brother or sister must do.
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Lester Wilson has written a thoughtful piece on this at www.lifehouse.org/tracts/ called “Backsliding and Restoration”, part of which is placed below.
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Many a backslider can trace his departure from God to carelessness. He became careless about reading the Word of God, spending time in prayer, winning souls for Christ, fighting the battles of the Lord. … Whatever time you have at your disposal, use it in reading, praying and doing the Lord’s work…
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Let us notice a few verses in the Psalms where David’s condition is described. In Psalm 32:3 we read “When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture la turned into the drought of summer.” The first thing we notice is his silence. He was silent to God, self and man. This is true of backsliders, instead of “Singing and making melody in their hearts to the Lord” they are silent; no praise, no joy, no word of cheer for other fellow Christians, no word of the gospel for a poor sinner, no prayer, no reading of the Scriptures, no interest in the things of God at all. Such is the condition of a backslider.
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Furthermore, one away from God will try to conceal his sin and justify himself instead of acknowledging his transgression and justifying God in judgment upon it. The true attitude of a backslider seeking restoration should be to condemn self and justify God. Notice some of David’s language: “I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord.” And in Psalm 51 we read: “Have mercy upon me, 0 God, according to thy loving kindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from my Iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin Is ever before me. Against thee, and thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil In thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.” Notice all sin is against God. Did David not “sin” against Bathsheba and Uriah? He did, but his sin first of all was against God and thus God alone could forgive him. When Nathan, the prophet, said “Thou art the man” David said, “I have sinned against the Lord…” Then notice Nathan’s words: “Me Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.” II Samuel 12:13. “Thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin…” Psalm 32:5.
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In Psalm 51:7 we see how David was cleansed: “Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” He undoubtedly had in mind the sprinkling of the blood with hyssop as mentioned in the 12th of Exodus. It is only through the blood of the Lamb that we can be cleansed. “The blood of Jesus Christ, God’s Son, cleanseth us from all sin.” Let us confess our sins before Him and receive the cleansing. This fits us for service as we read In Psalm 51:12: “Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.” He did not say, “Restore unto me thy salvation,” but the joy of it. A child of God has God’s salvation but loses the joy of it when he becomes a backslider. When he is restored and he knows by the Word of God he is forgiven, then the joy returns, and this is his strength.
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We will conclude with a few remarks about Peter. Peter boasted of his love for Christ; he was self confident. Had he leaned upon Christ and remembered his word, “I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” he never would have denied the Lord. After his boasting the decline set in. He was sleeping when he should have been watching and praying, smiting with the sword when he should have been quiet, following afar off when he should have been near Christ, warming himself at the world’s fire when he should have been separated, denying his Lord when he should have been witnessing for Him.
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You remember how the Lord turned and looked on Peter when the cock crew. That look was enough. We read, “And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, and went out and wept bitterly.” Luke 22:61-62.
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… Here is the road to restoration for any who are away from God. A look of love and compassion from the One who says, “I will heal their backsliding-, I will love them freely.” Hosea 14:4. And a reminder of His word, “Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backsliding.” Jeremiah 3:22. And, “I have blotted out as a thick cloud thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.” Isaiah 44:22. May the look and word of the One who loves us reach our heart.
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Is God using the language of Jeremiah 2:2 with any of us? “I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me In the wilderness, In a land not sown.” What had Israel in the wilderness? God and the sand. God was enough for them at the beginning, but they departed from Him. Does God remember the days of our first love, when we were wholeheartedly, out and out for Christ, able to sing from the heart, “I have given up all for Jesus?” Has that simplicity, devotion and love departed? Have we left our first love? If not, thank God and seek his grace and strength that it may continue, remembering that solemn verse, “Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

By Paul, a mashed potato on Aug 12, 2011

Although possible it is very unlikely that people committed to this Latter Rain filth will repent and return to Christ as the TRUTH is obviously spiritually discerned. The Bible warns that God HIMSELF has sent delusion to those who do NOT love the TRUTH.

The ultimate deception of Satan, of course, is to falsely convince the lost that they are saved and to convince the apostate that they have nothing to fear because of eternal security.

Faithfulness to HIS WORD is what God requires.

Confusion is used by SATAN to deceive people into believing that God does NOT care they believe or HOW they behave.

God has provided ONE means of salvation ONLY.

False religion and the false christ(s) they preach and teach of have NO power to save but are weapons of deception used by SATAN.

1 Peter 5:8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

NOBODY IS LESS LIKELY TO RESPOND TO THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST THAN THOSE WHO ARE FALSELY CONVINCED THEY ARE ALREADY SAVED.

By Wayne on Aug 15, 2011

This is why the warning emphasized by Phillip Powell is so extremely important to those with spiritual discernment in these spiritually dark and dangerous days:

Increasing numbers of people are heeding the trumpet call to “Come out from among them.” Some who have left the decadent and apostate movements and denominations in “spirit” are remaining within for various reasons. Among these is the very valid desire to reach out and influence others who are enmeshed in the system. We at CWM recognise the legitimacy and in fact the wisdom of this. However we believe that everyone MUST be careful not to be overtaken by error or coldness by staying in too long.

Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you - 2nd Corinthians 6: 17 (NKJV).

Ultimately the biblical mandate is clear, –Come out from among them–the present danger is stated,–Do not touch what is unclean–the method of escape is explained–And be separate–and the end result is promised–I (the Lord) will receive you.

By Wayne on Aug 15, 2011

The following excellent teaching from Bill Randles addresses the confusion which satanic interjections may cause to the genuine born again believer seeking the TRUTH:

Belief in Truth As Sign of Eternal Life…( I John )
billrandles | August 14, 2011 at 12:54 am | Categories: Mending the Nets | URL: http://wp.me/pUodd-jr

I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by me.(John 14:6)

We have been studying the threefold sign of eternal life, as taught by the Apostle John in His First Epistle. We have stressed that Eternal Life is a gift of God, it cannot be merited, it can only received freely by faith.
But how does one know whether or not he has received the gift of eternal Life?
After all, in our day as well as in John’s there were many teachers, and prophets who were redefining the knowledge of God, and claiming a new, secret, unique and mystical relationship with God, that was much more experiential and elaborate than the salvation taught by the Apostles.

By their “spiritual warfare”, prophecies, “Words” and supposed “Anointing” the new prophets had so confused and beguiled the believers, that some departed from orthodox christianity, seeking the “new and improved” version of the “Knowing ones”,ie the gnostics.
Confusion and demoralization reined among the remnant believers as to what is the true spirituality, who should they be listening to, and how does one know that they have known God?
The Apostle John’s task was not to bring something new, but to restore their original faith, and to contrast the true knowledge of God as opposed to the false. He does it by re-iterating three simple theological propositions;
* God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all…(I John 1:5)
* God is Love…(I John 4:8)
* Jesus Christ has come (and remains) in the flesh…( I John 4:2)
Out of these John extracts three simple tests of those who claim to have the Life of God. A test of Righteousness, a test of Love, and a test of belief in truth. Eternal Life being the cause of all three of these in a person’s life.
Eternal Life is a cause and not an effect. In other words, I am not turning from sin so that I can obtain eternal life…it is because I have obtained the gift of eternal life, that I now hate sin. Eternal life in me hates sin and won’t allow me to abide in it!
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.( I John 3:9)
Furthermore it is because I have received eternal life that I now love the brothers, not the other way around! God’s gift of eternal life causes me to love, forbear, forgive, and seek to build up my christian brothers.
“Everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God,He that loveth not knoweth not God for God is Love”.( I John 4:8)
In the same way, eternal life causes me to believe the doctrine of Christ, and to continue in that belief. I have been led astray before, but eternal life didn’t allow me to remain in the doctrines of Kenneth Copeland, because they contradicted the doctrine of Christ.
The Life of Jesus in me led me to see through the teaching that we are all just “little gods” and that “any believer is as much an incarnation as Jesus was”. Adherence to the Truth is a major sign of eternal life.
What does the Bible mean by the constant expression, “the Truth”? We are told that “the Truth” will make us free, and that many will be damned because “they received not the love of the Truth”. Jesus said of himself “I am the Truth…” . What does the expression, “The Truth” actually mean?
“The Truth” is not meant to be understood generally, as in all reality, the reality of Geometry, algebra, history, etc. Nor is it a reference to “veracity”, truth telling.The biblical sense is that The Truth is not naturally obtained but can only come by revelation.
We often hear the misguided cliche “All truth is God’s truth”, which misses the point of the biblical expression entirely, because it assumes that there is truth everywhere available, even in false religions. Yes all men indeed do have general truth, a kind of natural revelation, but “The Truth” is something other than that.
When the apostles and Jesus speak of “The truth” they refer to the only reliable disclosure of the spiritual and eternal world. It involves The true nature of God, how God sees man, the plight of mankind, the plan of Salvation, eternity, and primarily, Jesus, who he is why and how he came (incarnation),and what lies ahead for humanity and for the world.
Jesus is the truth, in the sense that He is the ultimate revelation of God, and of the true nature of God. His evaluation of mankind is the eternal evaluation, He is the plan and working of God’s salvation, the future of everything is in His hands. Everything he says is the Truth.
Those genuinely born again are said to be “of the Truth”. That is, eternal life has given them an inward affinity to truth, they resonate with it, feed on it and crave it. They cannot follow the antichrists, because they don’t resonate with anti-christianity. They have to follow the Truth wherever it is proclaimed and lived out.
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.( John 18:37)
Those who aren’t born again constantly oppose or resist the truth. They must of necessity, it is deeper than intellectual it is moral and spiritual. There has to be a Ken Copeland and a Benny Hinn, because there is such a large constituency for them, there are so many who crave what they offer, that if there weren’t a Hinn, Dollar or Copeland, someone would have to invent one!
The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? (Jeremiah 5:31)
The reason some people will always go from the “Prayer of Jabez” to the “Purpose Driven Life” to “Good Morning Holy Spirit” to the false prophecies of a Rick Joyner , to Paul and Jan Crouch, to whatever other form of twisted and distorted christianity emerges, could be because they are Just “Not of the Truth”.

By Wayne on Aug 15, 2011

I restate for emphasis:

The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? (Jeremiah 5:31)

The reason some people will always go from the “Prayer of Jabez” to the “Purpose Driven Life” to “Good Morning Holy Spirit” to the false prophecies of a Rick Joyner , to Paul and Jan Crouch, to whatever other form of twisted and distorted christianity emerges, could be because they are Just “Not of the Truth”.

By Wayne on Aug 15, 2011

Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.( John 18:37)

Those who are NOT genuinely born again constantly oppose or resist the truth. They must of necessity, it is deeper than intellectual it is moral and spiritual. There has to be a Ken Copeland and a Benny Hinn, because there is such a large constituency for them, there are so many who crave what they offer, that if there weren’t a Hinn, Dollar or Copeland, someone would have to invent one!

At the local level this applies to the “anointed ones” who must not be questioned - primarily because the false teaching(s) they promulgate is so obviously un biblical, anti biblical OR super biblical that they have literally NO biblical basis for their nonsense.

The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? (Jeremiah 5:31)

FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD IS WHAT GOD REQUIRES!

By Wayne on Aug 17, 2011

A question remains (following my last comment a week ago) that confuses many, and that is
“BUT WHAT OF A BACKSLIDDEN CHRISTIAN WHO HAS NOT REPENTED BEFORE THEIR DEATH?”
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The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) — but he himself shall be saved!
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“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.”
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
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The regenerated Christian has become fused into the Body of CHRIST
“For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones.” Ephesians 5:30

“Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular.” 1 Corinthians 12:18
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Another question “But what if we later BELIEVE NOT?”
Our salvation is so secure — even if we BELIEVE NOT after we’re saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), “. . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.”
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“If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.” 2 Timothy 2:13
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But what if I sin an awful sin?
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1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands “. . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh” — Paul still speaks of that person being saved — “. . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . .”

“It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus.” 1 Corinthians 5:1,5
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The idea that you can lose your salvation — makes God a LIAR
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With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you — to even suggest you could lose your salvation — is to call God a LIAR!
“. . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . .” 1 John 5:10
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WHY DO PEOPLE DOUBT THE SECURITY OF THEIR SALVATION?
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They are confused by the simplicity of salvation.
“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from THE SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:3
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They trust in tradition or church teachings (yes, even Arminian and many Pentecostal ones)rather than the word of God.
“Making the word of God of none effect through your TRADITION,. . .” Mark 7:13
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They trust in their own righteousness.
“. . . and all OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as filthy rags;. . .” Isaiah 64:6
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They have NEVER been saved.
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;. . .” Matthew 7:21
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When we have a clear view of the goodness, righteousness, majesty, and glory of God we stand in awe. That he give grace to us should cause every one of us to seek to foster our relationship with the LORD every day of our life. The Bible also clearly declares that he has an inheritance IN THE SAINTS. In an age where so many are concerned almost completely with ‘What’s in it for me?’ this fact confronts us and challenges us. He has called us to become transformed, by the renewing of our minds, into the image of Christ the perfect Son of God, doing works of goodness that are foreordained for us. In this sanctifying process and its chastening, we are being equipped for our eternal roles. What a shame it will be for any un-restored backslider who enters that heavenly place without having fully submitted their earthly lives to the pleasures of knowing God using them for the spreading of the knowledge of HIS glory throughout the Earth - having squandered ordained opportunities entrusted to them.
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And what a joy there will also be for them - for they have been SAVED BY GOD’S GRACE ALONE. In that aspect they will truly rejoice forever.

May the LORD strengthen each of us to live our lives to the praise of HIS GLORY.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Aug 19, 2011

Satan has been spreading this counterfeit gospel since the garden of Eden when he caused Adam and Eve to fall by questioning the Word of God.

False teaching such as eternal security to the apostate or as Billy Graham has done with Roman Catholics and people of other pagan/heathen religions in falsely suggesting that the unsaved are saved is extremely DANGEROUS to the spiritually naive and biblically ignorant and MUST be wholeheartedly REJECTED.

This sort of evil nonsense encourages the apostate church to continue spreading this latter rain filth with impunity.

For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ, ‘ and will deceive many. … and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people (Matthew 24:5, 11).

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time (Matthew 24:24-25).

In Revelation, Jesus warned us about the Great Deception that is coming.

Consequently it must be wholeheartedly resisted by ALL who wish to be numbered amongst the Faithful Remnant at the Day of Judgement.

The ability to discern spiritual/biblical truth is so obviously a GIFT solely by the Grace of God for which the truly born again bible believing christian should be eternally grateful.

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).

Deception is ever present but the days are coming and have come when most people will be deceived. Deception will continue to increase until the Day of the Lord and the return of Christ.

THE FAITHFUL REMNANT REMAIN FAITHFUL TO HIS WORD ALONE UNTIL THE VERY END!!!

By Wayne on Aug 19, 2011

Those who have been following these comments about the TRUTH OF THE ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIAN recognise that even the salvation of Hyper-Arminians is eternally secure, although they may teach earnestly (and in fact, falsely) against this wonderful truth.

It has taken a while to ‘unpack’ some key aspects of this pearl of doctrine in non-technical language for the edification of readers - about 6 weeks.

Why has the post’s overall conversation included this discussion, you may ask. When other contributors persistently include the false teaching that a regenerate believer can lose their salvation, and then threaten a future in hell for any regenerate believer who disagrees with their opinions, it is entirely appropriate to unpack this doctrine. Also, those who behave as the sons of Zebedee did, need admonition - and the truth of the inspired word of God admonishes each of us. IMO this is a better way to counter the aberration as their vilification of others is a nasty business.

I pray many have been edified as you have studied the Scriptures and considered this theme. It has been a clear call to a life of serving the LORD wholly separated to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, out of our love and gratefulness to our Lord Jesus, and in obedience to Him.

By Paul, a mashed potato on Aug 20, 2011

The Bible clearly and consistently warns that false teaching MUST be resisted by ALL who will be saved. Only faithfulness to the TRUTH of the Word of God will cut it with God on the judgement day.

Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.( John 18:37)

Those who are NOT genuinely born again constantly oppose or resist the truth.

By Wayne on Aug 20, 2011

Just as obedience is desired and rewarded by God so disobedience has its inevitable consequences.

The BIBLE is VERY clear - There is NO confusion - genuine biblical christianity is NOT whatever the apostate may wish it to be.

In response to obvious attempts to minimise the consequences of surrendering biblical christianity in favour of apostate perverted religion it is necessary to continually urge biblical christians to resist this trick of the devil that has plagued mankind since the testing of faithfulness placed the Garden of Eden was at stake.

The bible was written to show that there is ONE way to salvation ONLY.
The way that was revealed to the men chosen by God to reveal HIS will to us through HIS WORD the Bible is NOT a collection of whimsical fantasies and occultic fads or anything to do with postmodern existentialism it was an objective revelation of TRUTH to men selected by God for this purpose.

Just as satan deceived Adam and Eve into forfeiting paradise in exchange for his (satans’) perverted view of religious activity satan and his cohorts are still deceiving people and leading them into false religion and false futile religious activity today. Did God really say that….? they say, (similar to the Genesis account of the fall) as if there is some doubt, then they continue with the lie of the latter rain delusion that God knows that if you disobey HIM you will be as God.

God and HIS WILL is very clear to the humble follower sincerely seeking to live in accordance with HIS revealed will and Word.

Although the Omniscient Omnipotent God is in Total control and fully able to turn all deceitfulness to HIS advantage it is Satan who is the author of confusion and perversion of the TRUTH of the Word of God.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

The TRUE GOD who is creator of everything has provided only ONE way by which we may be saved. We are given but one brief opportunity to accept or reject HIS offer of grace to us.
We MUST NOT allow ourselves be lured away by the ravenous wolves we are warned about so often.

The bible clearly warns that consequence of apostasy will be the same as it was for Adam and Eve.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Guard your steps when you go to the house of God.
Go near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools, who do not know that they do wrong.

By Wayne on Aug 20, 2011

The Apostle Paul Addressed False Teachers by Name

Many falsely say that it is judgmental and unbiblical to call names.

Lets look at what the Bible says:
In 1 Timothy 1:19-20 Paul warned Timothy about two false teachers and called their name as he wrote saying, “Holding faith (maintaining faith in Christ and the Cross), and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith (abandoned the Cross) have made shipwreck: of who is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan (1Cor. 5:5), that they may learn not to blaspheme” (A departure from the message of Christ and Him Crucified is blaspheme against God according to Paul). The Apostle Paul speaks of Hymenaeus again along with another false teacher he called by name in 2 Timothy 2:17-18 saying, “And their words (false doctrine) will eat as doth a canker (liken unto gangrene which will eat away and poison the person through out until death comes): of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.” Now I have a bold statement to make to those who do not agree with identifying false teachers by their name: what would you say to this group of how ever many the word “some” represents in verse 18 that are now in Hell because Hymenaeus, Alexander, and Philetus made “shipwreck” of their faith? That word “overthrow” means to be removed from ones proper position. Paul warned Timothy again in 2 Timothy 4:14-15 saying, “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: The Lord rewarded him according to his works (True, but Paul did not just sit down and fail to warn others of Alexander): Of who be thou ware (beware) also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.” Rest assured the term “our words” refer to the message of the Cross. Paul said in 1 Cor. 1:23, “But we preach Christ Crucified” and in 1 Cor. 2:2 “For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ and Him crucified.”

The Word-Faith camp teaches that Christ Jesus did NOT make Atonement “In His Flesh By The Cross” according to Ephesians 2:15-16, 1 Peter 2:21-24, 1 Peter 3:18, 1 Peter 4:1, Colossians 1:21-22, and Hebrews 10:10. Also Isaiah 53:5 declares, “He was wounded (In His Body) for our transgressions, He was bruised (In His Body) for our iniquities: The chastisement of our peace was upon Him (His Body) and with His stripes (On His Body) we are healed.” It is erroneous and ridiculous that some would teach that when Christ’s blood was poured out on the Cross that it did not Atone for sin.
We who are aware of the consequences of apostasy MUST warn of this and other lies to ALL who will listen repent and thereby escape the coming judgement of the Lord Jesus Christ!

So relevant to our situation today is the warning in Ecclesiastes 5:1
Guard your steps when you go to the house of God.
Go near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools, who do not know that they do wrong.

By Wayne on Aug 21, 2011

The Apostle Peter warns 2 Pt. 2:1-3: “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and