Christian Witness Ministries

Dear Philip

As you have accused/implied that the leaders at the Lakeland oupouring and all those testifying to healing are lying, please would you provide evidence that the man with stage 4 metastatic cancer is not healed.

By Anonymous on Jul 5, 2008

In the absence of any real evidence that the man is healed the conclusion is obvious. Our Lord told the healed lepers to go to the priests as a witness cf. Luke 17: 4. The onus of proof rests with those who make the claims not with those who ask for the evidence.

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 5, 2008

You are bringing the accusation (prosecution) so it is up to you to provide the evidence.

By Anonymous on Jul 5, 2008

It’s not a court case and apart from that I have NOT accused anyone of lying. I have simply requested evidence and then analysed the response from Stephen Strader to my request. Do you think his response was reasonable?

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 5, 2008

When understanding the way that jurisprudence works in the USA, his response is certainly reasonable.

You have brought a very serious charge of false statements and deception being broadcast in a large public gathering as well as via media throughout the world. You really do need to provide evidence for your claim. This could also be classed as defamation of character.

By Anonymous on Jul 5, 2008

I am unable to imagine why anyone involved in a “genuine” healing of this magnitude would be anything other than absolutely delighted to provide evidence to support such a claim.
What an opportunity this would be to establish the bona fides of the entire organisation.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 5, 2008

Surely any sort of credibility is better than NO credibility at all.
Evidence of such a healing, rather than the bluff-and-bluster verbiage associated with all the hype, would at least give us all something intelligent to think about.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 5, 2008

Stephen Straders response is really strange. It is rather obvious, that they have something to hide. If they really wanted to allow verification, they would have doctors at the stage and could ask those who testify of healings to sign the proper medical release forms immediately. I’m sure many would allow their information to be published. A form similar to this could be used:
http://www.princeton.edu/uhs/pdfs/ReleaseAuth.pdf

The form above clearly shows, that there are legal ways to release medical info in America.

By Christian on Jul 5, 2008

Does anybody know what this Todd Bentley fellow teaches from God’s Word? Has he preached at all? Just wondering if he has any doctrines and what they are. I have watched Youtube and I have only heard Todd Bentley make claims of healing. I have not seen any of the videos where people claim he has kicked someone, but I have heard from Todd Bentley’s own lips that he has done so and from that healed a man.

If people are happy to follow him that is their choice. After all God gave us the ability to choose. As for me I prefer to only trust in God’s Word. Before just accepting anyone’s teaching or claims I prefer to be able to check this out against scripture.

Anonymous seems to take offence at people using their God-given minds to think for themselves and not blindly believe what someone claims. Maybe you should read the Bible sometime ‘anon’. The Bible records that when the apostle Paul preached to the Bereans they diligently checked out what he taught them against God’s Word to see if it ‘agreed with the scriptures’. Oh and another thing the Bible infers that all men are naturally liars - and only God tells the truth. That’s why I always make sure what anyone tells me is true before I decide to receive it.

My grandfather always says that “God hears and sees everything and no one will escape His judgement”.

By Melissa on Jul 5, 2008

Dear Heresy Hunter.
Ha ha…..
Welcome to the club. These insane people just simply want to be able to deceive the people and they do not want anyone to judge, ask questions or correct them through the Word of God. They are very wicked people and will steal your soul for hell if you accept their witchcraft practices.
See my blog to see their false doctrines.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3822823/-Todd-Bentley-Peter-Wagner-Star-Gates-Synchromysticism-the-Wizards-of-the-NEW-AGE-Christ-

By pat holliday on Jul 5, 2008

Actually Melissa, I and those I know who have gone to Lakeland, are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible - not Todd Bentley. He just happens to be the person God is using (as unlikely that may be) in that unlikely town, and we are all quite capable of thinking for ourselves.

The Bereans actually listened to Paul with open hearts and minds - before checking out whether his teaching regarding Jesus as the Messiah was true. This was not like the Thessalonians whose suspicious minds prevented them from even listening to Paul, and hearing what he had to say, before rejecting him outright. Reminds me of heresy hunters.

By Anonymous on Jul 5, 2008

And here is God’s Word on the matter…seems pretty clear to me…unless of course ‘no’ doesn’t mean ‘no’ and ’striker’ doesn’t mean ’striker’ *smiling*

“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, NO STRIKER, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous…” 1 Tim. 2:2&3

“For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, NO STRIKER, not given to filthy lucre; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate…” Titus 1:7&8

And if John the Baptist counselled the earthly soldiers to ‘do violence to no man’ (Luke 3:14), then surely for spiritual soldiers that counsel is even more strongly applicable.

God bless you CWM…

By Gillian on Jul 5, 2008

Dear Philip

I cannot see what the problem is here.

It was Jesus’ instruction to send people to the medics of the day - namely the priest. Principally for a check-up and further to obey the law of Moses.

Matt 8:4 And Jesus said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”
Mark 1:44 and said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”
Luke 5:14 And he charged him to tell no one, but “go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”

What is the problem with Todd Bentley providing the “before & after” medical evidence? Surely this would be some proof that Todd is a genuine healer and following in the footsteps of Christ!

But no - sadly, he is just another “false christ” yelling in the wilderness or kicking people on the stage. Matt 24:26 “So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.”

Like the “gold-teeth” deception promoted by Mike Knott of Wellington NZ’s Elim church, which proved to be false, Todd Bentley is just another in a line of ever increasing false christs. Those that follow him have swallowed the lie as prophesied in these times. 2 Thess 2:11 • Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,

Delusion:
syn delusion, illusion, hallucination, mirage mean something that is believed to be true or real but that is actually false or unreal. delusion implies an inability to distinguish between what is real and what only seems to be real, often as the result of a disordered state of mind.

There is no healing at a Bentley meeting. There is no deliverance at a Bentley meeting . There is no prophecy at a Bentley meeting. There is no Holy Spirit at a Bentley meeting. There is no Biblical teaching at a Bentley meeting.
There is a false christ at a Bentley meeting and, what is worse, there are thousands at a Bentley meeting that are deluded. Deluded to the point that they are convinced that they have found some “holy man” who has some sort of “holy anointing”. Worse, they think it is from God. And they love it so.

My advice to those who have subjected themselves to false christs such as Bentley is to
1) repent before the Lord for their error
2) repent before the Lord if they have led others to Bentley, and
3) “do not go out” and “do not believe it” as per Matt 24:26. [i.e. Don’t go to the meetings and “don’t believe it”!]

In Jesus THE Christ

Lawrie Cornish

By Lawrence W CORNISH on Jul 5, 2008

Greetings

To be honest, I don’t think any more evidence is going to convince heresy hunters, as they have already made up their minds. If the overwhelming empirical evidence is not enough (i.e the millions of eyewitnesses watching, as well as the many thousands testifying of healings all over the world), nothing will convince them. They will just bring accusations of doctors’ reports being fraudulent, or that the healings are the work of the devil. This is similar to the Pharisees who witnessed the healings of Jesus over 2000 years ago. If they did not accept His works as being of God then, they will not accept it now either.

By Gary on Jul 6, 2008

Gary, your comment is baffling and your theology is confused. It is and always has been reasonable to ask for evidence of such claims just as it is reasonable to expect conformity to scriptural principles and standards.

My wife and I have left an AoG church we had attended for 30 years where the Pastor declared that he had received an “anointing” by impartation. The last sermon he preached at which my wife and I were present was to “explain the anointing to people who did not understand it.” He informed me that he was not interested in bible doctrine but was only interested in his anointing. He told the church he was not much of a preacher and was not concerned with bible doctrine and that if we wanted to hear preaching we should go and listen to Benny Hinn. He had been increasingly engaging in socio-political comment and activities. He has subsequently had New Age teachers in the church and is openly embracing the anti-reformation movement.
His youth pastor told my daughter that they were not interested in checking out whether Benny Hinn was scripturally correct either as both he and they were too busy building the kingdom. Anything that attracts people in numbers must be good therefore checking teachings out against the canon of scripture is a waste of time for busy kingdom builders according to these people.
Generally speaking, having a Pastor who has the “anointing” means that they are not subject to biblical accountability nor are their teachings or more appropriately directions to the church membership to be subject to testing by biblical standards. People are required to follow the “anointed” without question simply because of their claims to special “anointing.”
The horror of these developments is highlighted by even superficial reference to Holy Scripture.
See for example 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Judge all things: hold fast to that which is good.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 …”stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our epistle.”

This is the sort of nonsense you are proposing we go on accepting over and over again. The Scriptures do NOT require blind allegiance to “anointed ones” NOR does my God and I will NOT have any part of such nonsense. Jesus came to set us free from this sort of religious rubbish. I will continue to warn everybody to JUDGE ALL THINGS: HOLD FAST TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 6, 2008

Wayne, what I said is quite straightforward. There are two sides to every story so it would be interesting to hear your pastor’s perception from himself.

By Gary Roberts on Jul 6, 2008

Wayne and family, my heart goes out to you, this must be devastating for your family after 30 years of attending. I am grieved and shocked at what this Pastor has said to you, but you did right by leaving. Unfortunately many are saying this and doing this. We don’t belong to a church either, and we had left a pentecostal denomination after over 20 years of going there. We must stay in the Word and stay faithful no matter what. Jesus said he would never leave us nor will he forsake us.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: I think this scripture is very interesting because Jesus says here that the only sign would be the sign of the prophet Jonas or Jonah, which he was told to go to Nineveh to preach repentance, which after a whale experience, the Lord got his attention and he went and preached repentance to this city. It is the repentance preaching we should be looking for not signs and wonders.
I truly believe with all my heart, that miracles happen on a day to day basis, and not from these so called healing meetings. If their ministry was really true [or that of any of these recent TV evangelists, from Oral Roberts, to Benny Hinn] how many of them have gone to any pediatric wards or hospital wards to pray for the children and people? There is not one, not one, you know why? Because they rely on the hype, and emotionalism, to get people worked up, none of that goes on in the hospital. And I am sure some of our precious veterans recently from the Gulf War would appreciate prayer and a visit also. They would be able to tell you the real from the counterfeit.
God bless you, we stand for truth, Truth that cannot be shaken. from Joyce

By Joyce on Jul 6, 2008

Thank you Wayne for your insights and Joyce for your sympathy with Wayne.

Sadly this is the sort of thing that is going on in many places even though people such as Gary Roberts won’t accept it and try to argue against it.

WAYNE - if your former pastor would like to defend himself publicly just tell him about this blog. His comment is welcome.

I note that a person called Gary made a statement on July 6 (above) which echoes something sent to me by Dr Gary Greig (garygre@earthlink.net), the so-called apologist for the Lakeland Outpouring (outpouring@ignitedchurch.com). Isn’t it interesting that an “outpouring” needs an apologist - hmm.

The email was to his associate Stephen Strader (stephenstrader@gmail.com) advising him NOT to communicate with us. He called us “Heresy Hunters”, though really heresy and heretics are so prolific today that there’s no need to hunt it or them.

Is it coincidence that the Gary on our blog and Todd Bentley’s official apologist are both called “Gary” - coincidence or maybe one and the self same person, seeing they both said basically the same thing.

My response to Dr Gary Greig who avoided our challenge to produce evidence for the healing of the man with cancer of the colon, by telling us his own story about alleged healing from sleep apnoea. I failed to get the connection and wrote to him as follows:- “In the meanwhile I wish you happy sleep and suggest that you stop “dreaming” and consult a good dictionary before you again use the “empirical” argument line. Try the Concise Oxford Dictionary. Mine defines the noun “EMPIRIC” [archaic] among other things as “quack doctor”. The definition of “EMPIRICAL” includes “regarding sense data as valid information” and “deriving knowledge from experience alone”. That’s where your reason leaves you, dear Dr Gary S. Greig. Cameras and people’s testimonials and claimed testimonials are NOT “objective” evidence per se. Our point is that we do not and will not rely on such dodgy “evidence”. If Jesus sent those healed of leprosy to the biblically–objectively– established authority of that day for examination (cf. Matthew 8:4 with Mark 1:44 and Luke 5: 14), why do you denigrate and speak so disrespectfully of those of us who ask for “objective” evidence and who will not rely on the subjective stuff that you keep offering? I would have thought your claimed training would make that rationale obvious, BUT then may be you are not the intelligent and educated “apologist” that you claim to be!! I recall the late Principal of the Prairie Bible Training Institute refer to those who are “educated beyond their intelligence” - hmm.

Thank you Wayne, Christian, Melissa, Pat, Gillian, Lawrie and Joyce for standing firm. Our Lord promised that those who would not be ashamed of Him now He would commend in the day of judgment - AMEN.

We are called to EARNESTLY CONTEND FOR THE FAITH …

In Christ,

Philip L. POWELL.
http://www.cwmfellowship.org
http://www.christian-witness.org

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 7, 2008

Jesus did not go to the leper colonies, but he did heal those who came to Him for healing, much of which he performed in public. Apart from compassion - it is also a demonstration of God’s power, thus giving Him the glory.

By Anonymous on Jul 7, 2008

I think we need to be careful about comparing any actions to Christ’s. Just because Jesus did something does not mean that any of His servants can or may do the same. Jesus also walked on water and stilled the wind and waves but you never hear anyone claiming to have that power. Just because Jesus healed all that came to Him does not mean anyone else can claim that power. In fact the apostle Paul, who DID heal people, apparently could not heal Trophimus whom he ‘left at Miletum sick’, or Epaphroditus who was sick ‘nigh unto death’. James 5:14 & 15 gives the instructions for a believer if he is sick, and it does not say ‘cast out the devil by violence’ or ‘blow upon them’ etc.

What amazes me is not the fact that these events occur, but that there is even a debate amongst ‘believers’ about its scriptural basis.

By Gillian on Jul 7, 2008

Joyce, thank you for your comments and God bless you too. I must point out that we have found that extremely rare modern day Pastor who is faithful to the Word of God and he preaches it regularly from a pulpit near to where we live. We have not stopped thanking God for the blessing this man has been to us and our family.

Gary, that Pastor believes he is “anointed,” whatever that means in contemporary religious mumbo jumbo. Consequently he can do no wrong whatever he says or does because he is “anointed.” That is the issue that I am highlighting. I have simply given a factual account of what occurred. We have that particular “sermon” on CD as we find it hard to believe ourselves that so-called christian ministries have stooped to this level. The facts rather that the emotionally charged hyperbole is what needs to be assessed in the cold hard light of scripture.

Everything needs to be assessed by the teaching of Scripture NOT by the thoughts, feelings, emotions or even “anointings” of man.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 7, 2008

Gillian, healing the sick, casting out devils, and raising the dead is the command Jesus gave for all His disciples. It ain’t gonna happen if we don’t go out and do it. Not everyone is going to be healed - but no one is going to be miraculously healed in the name of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit, if we do not put Christ’s example, teachings, and commands into praxis.

By Anonymous on Jul 7, 2008

The ‘outpouring’ continues, but not much verifiable evidence is forthcoming. If there have been REAL verifiable RESURRECTIONS from the dead, the news should be all over the blogosphere and possibly on some secular media by now. I cannot find anything.

As someone else asked, where are ‘the independent, peer reviewed and medically certified validations of these resurrections? If they are true, if people are truly coming back from the dead, they shouldn’t be tough to validate.’ - If the resurrections did not really happen, there should have been retractions by now. In the absence of both one has to assume, that Todd, and the Straders are lying. If they are lying about the resurrections, why should we believe them in regards to the other more remarkable claimed healings such as those from cancer.

Last week they had more than a dozen stage-4 cancer sufferers on the stage and claimed they were being healed. Todd specifically announced healing for at least the four people who were called out on a word of knowledge. My heart goes out to these precious people, and I have to wonder where is the fear of God among these so called ministers of the gospel in the ‘revival’. Some of those afflicted with cancer claimed to be healed based on some physical sensations in their body. How will their faith in our Lord Jesus be affected, when they find out, that they were not really healed? Some might even blame God and turn away. I’ve witnessed precious friends and relatives die of cancer after they had received so-called ‘words from the Lord’ regarding their accomplished healing due to the false Word-of-Faith doctrines. These tragedies can really destroy the faith of some in the affected churches. It is terrible to see the little ones (immature Christians) stumble, because of these pretentious faith healers.

I believe and know, that the Lord Jesus is healing people to glorify himself according to his Word, as my wife has been miraculously healed long ago and I have personally seen people healed in our ministry as well.

But I would be extremely cautious with any supposed healings in this Florida ‘outpouring’. Some are genuinely reaching out to the Lord for healing in Lakeland and get short-term subjective improvements, only to be tormented again afterwards, as this testimony by a person from the medical field shows who initially trusted Todd to pray for her healing:
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2008/05/23/todd-bentley-and-the-florida-outpouring-part-6/

How sad, that so many brothers and sisters who are weak in the faith or misguided from decades of false ‘Latter Rain’ doctrines are being deceived by this false revival.

An insightful article by Sandy Simpson regarding ‘Types Of Healing’ contrasts biblical healing with occult healing as follows:

() Biblical Divine Healing
(a) Immediate [mostly]
(b) Lasting
(c) Verifiable
(d) All Glory to God

() Paranormal/Demonic Healing
(a) Immediate to slow
(b) May last for awhile, but usually temporary
(c) Usually hard to verify
(d) All glory to man and the devil while lip service to God

How To Judge Healers
Teachings [biblical?]
Prophecies [do they come to pass?]
Fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control)

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/divinehealing.html

“To definitively prove that a healing is a Biblical Divine Healing today … that healing would have to be (1) of an incurable condition (2) obvious (3) verifiable (4) a problem well known to many people (5) immediate (6) lasting and (7) ascribed alone to the glory of God Who accomplished it by His omnipotent power alone. If it does not meet ALL these criteria it should not be used to prove it is a type of Biblical Divine Healing.” (Now I know the Lakeland participants might argue some of these points, but the witness of the Gospels and the book of Acts show the example and a high standard to follow.)

By this standard there don’t seem to be any biblical healings happening in Lakeland!

By Christian on Jul 7, 2008

Anonymous, it would be helpful to such conversations if you would support your comments by actually identifying who you are rather than continually making “anonymous comments.”

Preaching the Gospel of Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is the actual command to the disciples of the Jesus Christ of the Bible. This is the Great Commission.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 7, 2008

That is only part of the Great Commission, it also calls us to do healing, deliverance etc.

By Anonymous on Jul 7, 2008

Anonymous, it is a shame you are not prepared to identify yourself.

I read an excellent comment by Irene in one of the other blog sites which I have copied and pasted here for you to read again.

“Having been a Pentecostal all my life and also involved in ministry as one for 45 years I would like to say this.
I have seen top healing evangelists’ meetings. Have seen many healings and raising of the dead in our own ministry.
However, it has been evident from all this experience that there probably would be around 3% only who are definitely healed.
The reason for this?
a. Gifts of healings and miracles have never been promised in the Scriptures to work indiscriminately.
b. Hebrews 2:4 shows that God uses healings and miracles to confirm the Word of the Gospel, apparently in the majority of cases.
c. The epistles never emphasize healing and miracles above the spreading of the Word and Truths of the gospel and the Christian walk.
d. Despite what millions of Pentecostals and Charismatics say, healing is not in the atonement, in the sense they believe. Yes, the body will be healed for immortality in the resurrection.
e. 1 Peter 2 is about slaves suffering at the hands of their masters. To all believers, Peter says, verse 24, He Himself bore OUR sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness”. Then he apparently speaks to those slaves, “By his wounds YOU have been healed”.
f. The verses 18 to 23 justify this meaning. The tormented slaves were to act as Jesus, and “entrust themselves to Him”. In particular, they had been healed of their sins and could react righteously.
g. Paul would not diverge from the whole subject to instal one small paragraph about another, in this case, what people take top mean, healing for the body in “you were healed”.f.

By Irene Faulkes on Jul 1, 2008″

By Wayne Capell on Jul 7, 2008

Wayne

Do you agree with Anonymous that healing and deliverance are part of the Great Commission?

By Mark on Jul 7, 2008

I agree with what Irene has said above.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 7, 2008

The point is not whether you or I agree with every point above, but whether we are obeying his Great Commission.

By Anonymous on Jul 7, 2008

If this is okay I would like to copy and paste what I read on another post, Thank you Wayne for posting this, we have been saying this over and over again.

((One such person is Roberts Liardon in his book “God’s Generals”. Liardon was adjudged guilty of homosexuality with his youth pastor. Yet today’s anaemic “church” looks the other way crying “forgive” when the Bible says such a person should never again be in “leadership”. To justify their stance they appeal to such examples as King David in the Old Testament as you have done and overlook the clear command of the New Testament, which is the rule for Christian Church ministry. By the way, King David is never called a murderer or adjudged guilty of murder anywhere in the Bible. Yours is a humanistic conclusion based upon a false premise and overlooks the intrigues and raw facts of war and the rights of kings.))

We have seen this with our own eyes, people looking the other way and saying ‘forgive’.
Personally, in 1983 I walked in on a man in our church in the very act of attacking a boy. I saw it with my own eyes. I then immediately called the police. This guy denied this and tried to make me out to be liar. They did arrest him anyway, and did a background check on him. Not surprisingly he had been in jail in Florida for molesting his nephew. My testimony put this man in prison for 14 years. This forever changed me.
Even the Judge said, these people went to church for help, comfort, and teaching, and they were violated. Had I gone to the Pastor first, he would have told me not to call the police - as he allowed this guy on the property after the judge had ordered him not to be around schools or public places where there are children. [I must explain there were 2 men involved, as this guy was homosexual to another guy in the church, and he also was molesting boys at a church camp. The police got a confession by both men. The other guy was also sentenced to prison. This guy was the one who was allowed on the church property.] Sad thing is that they were both married to women and each one had a son.

I lost my trust and confidence in the leadership, and it has taken years to work through this. When I have shared this to people, this is the no.1 comment I hear, and that is “Well, you won’t find a perfect church”. This sounds like a justification for sexual sins, sodomy, and perversion and child rape. I don’t want to go to any church that makes excuses for this.

I am greatly concerned about Mr. Bentley and the fact that he has spend time in jail for molesting a boy. The Lord does forgive, and I don’t want to minimize this. But from what we went through with the situation I witnessed, revealed that the guy had a past record and he went on to victimize again. The fact that Mr. Bentley did this in Canada, means that he may not be on a American predator list, and that he is legally allowed to be around children in the USA - although Christian ethics do not allow this.
I have worked through forgiveness and I have forgiven, and I won’t let my children or grandchildren anywhere near someone like that. Yes there has to be a ministry, and a strong one, to minister to sexual predators, now that we are facing thousands who have molested, or sexually hurt, children. Our leaders are not doing anything about this, and sexual sins are rampant in the body of Christ, or excused as not being the perfect church. We need a genuine move of the Lord that will bring deliverance to these men that they will never molest again. I believe the Lord can do anything. It may be that Mr Bentley believes he is doing the Lord’s work and that he truly believes in his heart that he loves God. There are many ministries out there that he can do - other than preaching and doing this. But I firmly believe he should not be allowed to preach under any circumstances and that Leaders who have any moral standards or integrity would realize this and take immediate measures to deal with this.
I quoted earlier on here the Words of Jesus when he said that no sign should be given but that of the prophet Jonah. Jonah preached repentance, and turning from sin. May God help us stand in this hour to proclaim truth and preserve honor, righteousness and integrity.
From Joyce

By Joyce on Jul 7, 2008

One more comment,
Are we coming to the point where the church is going to be policed because they won’t judge themselves and be the Holy Church God has called them to be??????

In my experience I couldn’t go to the Pastor FOR HELP, I had to go to the police.
Shouldn’t the church and the Leadership have more truth, integrity, honesty, righteousness, than the world???? Doesn’t the word say that he has called us out of darkness into his marvelous light? Paul said ’should we sin though grace may abound?’ There seems to be no difference between the church and the world. Divorce is just as rampant in the church as are: perversions, pornography, molestations, lying, lasciviousness.
Paul said this should not be named among the church, 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

((((((((Again I am pleading with the Pastors and Leaders, do something about this before someone is hurt.))))))))))
Thank you for letting me share my heart and post. From Joyce

By Joyce on Jul 7, 2008

If my posting here will help, please pass this on to anyone who will hear and do something about this. I will be glad to share my whole testimony. I am a grandma and I don’t have a web site. But I want to help prevent anyone else from going through what we went through. NO CHILD SHOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS. I PRAY A WARNING COMES TO THE CHURCH from Joyce

By Joyce on Jul 7, 2008

There is another issue to deal with along with this, and that is the fact that Mr Bentley sent for Paul Cain [it is stated that he paid for his air fare down to Florida]. Paul Cain has admitted to those in authority that he is an alcoholic and also homosexual. He has yet to make it right. This is greatly disturbing, as he was allowed to preach at this revival with Bentley. Could someone verify this? As far as I know this is truth.
Thank you from Joyce

By Joyce on Jul 7, 2008

What a mess this is!

To get back to the original issue which was proof about someone claimed to be healed - It is absolutely not against the laws of the U.S.A. to reveal medical records. Nonsense. Forget HIPPA.

All that is necessary is for the patient or the patient’s legally authorized representative (LAR) to sign a release of information form for whatever records are needed.

Pure and simple. So, please folks, let’s quit acting like dogs and marking every bush in the forest here. So many urinate on the same bush that no one can figure out who belongs to what. And the issue never gets resolved either.

By Richard on Jul 7, 2008

Anonymous

The ’signs’ of Mark 16 were to follow the preaching of the Gospel and to confirm the Word of God.

I have yet to hear Todd Bentley preach the Gospel that Paul preached, and his ’signs’ contradict the Word rather than confirm it.

I think certain ‘believers’ think ‘try the spirits’ means ‘try them on for size and see if they suit you’. One wonders if they have read in Revelation 13:13 & 14 of the ‘miracles’ ‘great wonders’ ‘fire’ and ‘power’ displayed by the 2nd beast.

There is only one means by which one can know whether such is of God or not, the historical accuracy of the scriptures. ‘Supernatural’ does not necessarily equate with God, as is often supposed. We are admonished to ‘prove all things’, and prove them we must.

Unfortunately an ‘experience’ or a ‘feeling’ has superceeded the veracity of God’s holy Word in these days - therefore any ’sign’ or ‘wonder’ must be of God.

Not so: the preaching of the Gospel is of God; Salvation is of God; regeneration is of God; the Bible is of God - but ‘healings’, ’signs’, and ‘tongues’ can be from anywhere, and are found in almost every religion on earth.

Therefore they are not self-evident as a manifestation of God but need proving both practically and scripturally by the WHOLE counsel of God, not just a few proof-texts.

Additionally, the nature and character of God as revealed in Scripture will not condone such practices as those employed by Bentley et al.

By Gillian on Jul 7, 2008

Jacob (and all),

Thank you for keeping me in the loop over everything. I have been remaining relatively quiet due to many other pressing duties. But I just want to comment on a couple of things.

First, as a long time professor of Media Law, the statement coming from the Strader/Bentley camp that implied that it was against the law to document “healings” [due to the confidentiality of medical records] is plain nonsense.

While it is true that there are privacy laws on the record, the possessor of the medical records has the right to release them publicly. I would say also that that person has a Christian duty to do so. We see it all the time. Presidential candidates, etc. releasing their medical records. Why not then the release of the Stage 4 metastatic cancer records from the person who was allegedly healed at a Bentley meeting? I suspect it does not exist, and this is a cover-up from Mr. Strader?

Second, I agree with Jacob Prasch that Caine, Jones and some others associated with this alleged “revival”, are disqualified from leading any Christian ministries. The Word of God is quite clear on that.

Sincerely,

William M. Alnor, Ph.D.
Department of Communication
California State University, East Bay (Hayward)

Bill Alnor’s website is at:- http://www.cultlink.com

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 7, 2008

Anonymous, who are you?

By Wayne Capell on Jul 8, 2008

YES - “anon” I really think it’s time you told us who you are. What have you got to hide?

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 8, 2008

Bacon…?

By Anonymous on Jul 8, 2008

Which ‘anon’ are you referring to?

By Anonymous on Jul 8, 2008

I am Tim Johnson. Why?

By Anonymous on Jul 8, 2008

” AGAINST THE LAW OF USA to reveal medical records”

OH that is convenient.

HOWEVER DEATH RECORDS ARE PUBLIC!

By Paula Coyle on Jul 8, 2008

Gillian

If you have not heard Bentley preach the gospel [as Paul laid down as essentials in 1Cor.15] then you have not been hearing him preach at Lakeland or elsewhere.

The beast indeed displays great power in Revelation – however there is nothing in scripture to suggest that Satan heals the leper, cripple, or blind etc. He certainly does not deliver people from demonic forces.

‘Feelings’ do not supersede God’s word: however ‘feelings’ are a part of life and our make up as human beings. It is not unscriptural to have ‘feelings’ and ‘experiences’, and they indeed form a vital part of any relationship – no less our relationship with God. Relationship by its very definition is experiential. In fact when Jesus rejects those who call Him Lord – but do not know Him, He uses the Greek word ‘ginosko’ which out of the 7 words for knowledge in NT Greek (in English we have only 1) is the one which is an experiential knowledge, as distinct from a purely intellectual knowledge. ‘Ginosko’ is a word used in the New Testament when describing intimate relations between husband and wife.

Richard

By Richard Cole on Jul 8, 2008

Richard,

You appear to equate sicknesses with ‘demonic forces’, and healing with God. However sickness and healing have several sources, even in the scriptures.

There seems to be a false notion that healing is of God and therefore, if supernatural, it must be administered by a person ‘of God’. This, however, contradicts scripture.

In Mark 6 and Luke 9 Jesus gave the 12 disciples (including Judas) the power to heal, yet Jesus called Judas ‘a devil’ and the ’son of perdition’.

The Beast of Revelation 13 remember had a ‘deadly wound that was healed’. Do you believe God healed that wound?

In John chapter 5, an ‘angel’ troubled the waters of the pool of Bethesda and whoever thereafter first entered the pool was healed. However, when Jesus spoke to the man in verse 5 He took the man’s eyes off the pool and onto Himself. Why? Well, the scripture does not say it was an angel ‘of God’; the Devil has his angels too remember.

It is interesting that you mention Matthew 7, as Jesus says: “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” Yet their ‘Lord’ calls that work ‘iniquity’!

Again, supernatural power is a great deceiver - as shown in Acts 8 where Simon the Sorcerer was given heed to by the people of Samaria who said: “This man is the great power of God.” Obviously he wasn’t, yet his sorceries alone had bewitched the people into believing he was.

As for ‘feelings’ the Bible is not only clear that we cannot know our own hearts (Jer. 17:9), but that we are fools if we ever put any trust in them (28:26).

God also says through Solomon “Let thine heart retain MY WORDS” Proverbs 4:4

You disagree that feelings and experience are not superceding God’s Word, yet such nonsense as that practiced by Bentley and others clearly shows that they are, for it is the experience that is sought and not the veracity of God’s infallible Word.

‘Genuine’ healings occurred often in the Spiritualist church I was once a member of, as they do in other religions. So do ‘miracles’, ’signs’ and ‘wonders’.

Therefore my question to you would be, if healings are just as likely to be from another source other than God i.e. medical, psychosomatic, other-spiritual, etc. and even a lost man can seemingly cast out devils and do wonderful works as per Matthew 7, then how do YOU test their source.

I know how I test the source.

By Gillian on Jul 8, 2008

Getting back to the point.
There are no proven healings at a Bentley meeting.
Just as there are no proven healings at a Benny Hinn meeting - (even after all these years and hundreds of road-shows).

Benny and Bentley are both fakes.

By Lawrence W CORNISH on Jul 8, 2008

Gillian

How did you come to the conclusion that I equate sickness with demonic forces? I spoke about healing and deliverance. Of course there are many sources of healing. However what we are talking about here are the supernatural healings as Jesus performed such as creative miracles.

Jesus called Judas a ‘son of perdition’ because he knew him well enough to do so. At the end of the day Jesus is the only one who can make that judgement about people who claim Him as Lord, do all kinds of works in His name and in God’s power – but have no personal relationship with Him.

As the book of Revelation is prophetic, it contains many metaphors and allegories. The ‘wound of the beast’ could mean anything – given the context it probably means something like a political wound. Even if it was a physical wound – it would be a great stretch of hermeneutics, as well as exegesis, to try and use that as a basis for Satan miraculously healing people from all kinds of diseases.

As for the angel at the pool – there is nothing in the text to suggest that it was demonic.

The point about Matt. 7 is that we are to have a personal relationship with Jesus. It is not by our works that we receive salvation. This is true for all Christians – not only those who pray for healing and do deliverance. The way that some use that scripture implies that all who pray for healing and do deliverance do not really have a personal relationship with Jesus. That’s not what that pericope means at all.

You seem to have quite some insight as to the motivation of all the tens of thousands (including me) from around the world who have visited Lakeland – as well as the millions watching every night on TV. Do you have some secret knowledge or gift that God has given so that you can judge all their hearts?

Please be specific about the ‘genuine healings’ which took place in the spiritualist church you refer to.

My test is – if healings are prayed for in the name of Jesus, in the power of the Holy Spirit, to the glory of God the Father – then they are done in the name of Jesus, in the Power of the Holy Spirit, and to the glory of God the Father. It is not Todd Bentley or anyone else who heals (they just pray) but God.

By Richard on Jul 8, 2008

hey Lawrence, if all the thousands of eyewitnesses and testimonies of people healed and cleansed and delivered from demons and bad habits such as pornography is not enough evidence, then neither is that of the 500 people who witnessed the resurrection of Jesus.

By Rob on Jul 9, 2008

Rob,

interesting, that you mention the witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus. Where are the witnesses to the 31
resurrections which Todd claims? Even if Todd has thousands of *claimed* healings, they do not hold up to a *biblical standard* (see my longer post from July 7 above raising various points), the main point in the context of this thread:

* The healings/resurrections are NOT VERIFIED or not verifiable!

- show me the proven resurrections! - Todd claims 31 or more!

- ‘Freshfire’ is unwilling to provide evidence.

- if he is lying about the 31 resurrections, he is a LIAR who cannot be trusted about the cancer healing claims either.

By Christian on Jul 9, 2008

Christian have you written a polite letter to Fresh Fire and asked them nicely if they can provide evidence? Of course they really do not have to answer to you if they don’t feel like it - but they might if you ask them politely - have you done that?

By Rob on Jul 9, 2008

Rob, I’ve read their emailed answer to Philip Powell, which said “THE MEDICAL PROFESSION and lawyers will SUE US if we release info … our hands are tied… it is AGAINST THE LAW OF USA to reveal medical records”, so I do not have much hope regarding a more meaningful reply. Nevertheless, I’m awaiting an answer to my own emails.

How about you Rob, do you take all claims of resurrections or cancer healings at face value? You even state: “they really do not have to answer to you if they don’t feel like it”. Are you saying, that the body of Christ should not hold those accountable who make those *unprecedented* claims?

Who has ever claimed in recent history to have caused THIRTY-ONE RESURRECTIONS in 90 days in America? Who has ever kneed a terminally ill cancer patient in the stomach in the name of God, with the whole world watching?

“Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.”
(Acts 20:28-31 NKJV)

By Christian on Jul 9, 2008

If Todd Bentley was American his name would be on the sexual predator list. He is Canadian. I do not know if Canada has such a list. I do not believe he has a valid ministry, whether he claims healings or not. The man is unclean and needs to repent. He should not be allowed to preach under any circumstances. Remember Jim Jones?? Remember the punch?? They need to sit this man down quickly, so the people would see the truth and fear God. I pray the truth comes out quickly and this is dealt with. from Joyce

By joyce on Jul 9, 2008

Christian, they are accountable - but not to you. Have you read Philip Powell’s letter to them? It is a wonder that anyone would have the grace to even respond to his vitriol.

By Rob on Jul 9, 2008

Richard,

It appeared that you equate the two in your opening statement: “The beast indeed displays great power in Revelation – however there is nothing in scripture to suggest that Satan heals the leper, cripple, or blind etc. He certainly does not deliver people from demonic forces.”

And we CAN know what spirit a man displays or we would not be told to “try the spirits whether they are of God” - that is a judgment we are TOLD to make.

Your test appears to be if someone does something ‘in the name of Jesus’ then that is sufficient to make it genuine. Yet Matthew 7:21 contradicts this, where the casting out of devils, and the working of wonders were done ‘in His name’ yet Jesus called those works ‘iniquity’ and said He never knew those ‘believers’.

As for relationship, which appears to be so paramount to you, the relationship with Christ is inextricably tied up with His Word - we are ‘begotten’ by that Word of TRUTH, and commanded to study it and use it to ‘prove all things.’

The question is not whether you believe you are in a relationship with Christ, but whether HE is in one with you!

And if I have judged motives then so be it - when I see people flocking to something so unBiblical, including a church in my home town who went over to Florida to ‘get it’ and ‘bring it back’ then I do indeed judge that their motives are emotional and not scriptural, for how could they be?

And don’t get so hung up on judging motives - that is something done in court every day.

Your test of whether something is of God has no scriptural basis i.e. Matthew 7, Acts 8 etc.

Lastly, I am wondering why you need specifics for the ‘healings’ I mention from the spiritualist church. Do you wish to verify them? Do you wish to test them against the Word?

Well done, now please go and do likewise with Todd Bentley.

By Gillian on Jul 9, 2008

ROB:

I didn’t think my letter was vitriolic. If it was I am sorry. We were told by someone called “Chris” that the man with cancer was healed after being kicked by Tod Bentley and that there was evidence for that. So I took up the challenge and asked for the evidence. I thought I did it politely. You can read about the run around I received, especially from Steve Strader who is I think the senior pastor at Carpenter Church in Lakeland, Florida [where the so called “outpouring” is taking place]. Steve Strader called me “wicked” twice and “perverted” once in private emails and then blocked my emails. So my hands are tied. You or someone else might try “kindly” contacting him. The email address that I have is:

By the way there’s loads of stuff about the carry-on of the Straders. I was advised to do a google search on “Dan Karl Stephen Strader exaggeration”. You’ll be surprised what comes up. It’s all very sad what is being done and said in the name of Christ and His Church

God bless you all,

In Christ,

Philip L. POWELL

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 9, 2008

So Gillian - when John the Baptist was in prison and wanted to know if Jesus was indeed the Messiah, and Jesus sent a message back saying “the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised…” John could legitimately have responded with: “Well that’s not enough evidence for me Jesus…because Satan can also do those things.” Is that what you’re saying Gillian?

I don’t agree.

By Richard on Jul 9, 2008

Richard:

Pardon my interjection. Your rationale is absurd. We are not disputing anything about Jesus per se, but about Todd Bentley, who kicks people and then claims they are healed. Jesus never kicked anyone and then claimed the person was healed, and He did tell those whom He healed to obtain medical verification. When challenged to produce their evidence Todd Bentley and his followers fail abysmally. That’s the point and you and those on your side keep missing it.

Where’s the evidence?

By philip on Jul 9, 2008

That’s not the point under discussion with Gillian Philip - she is saying that satan can do those same healings.

What do you mean “your side”?

By Richard on Jul 9, 2008

Philip, the point you keep missing , is that there is enough evidence from eyewitnesses and testimonies (more than enough to convince a jury), and that Strader does not have to answer to you. He has probably been hounded by enough watchdogs who twist things to make him be very selective about with whom he speaks.

By Rob on Jul 9, 2008

My dear Richard,

My ‘claim’ was that healings can come from other sources than God, as you agreed. I asked you how you would test those sources to which you replied that them being done ‘in the name of Jesus’ was a sufficient test for you. This is not a Biblical test, and I am perplexed now (after the quoted previous verses) as to why you would continue to believe it is.

I am quite convinced from the scriptures that God does heal, however Bentley is NOT Jesus, neither does he stand up to spiritual scrutiny for the healing by a servant of God. In the Bible it is God Himself as its Author that has already told us that people WERE healed. However, today, His children are necessarily given means by which to test such from the Bible.

(By the way - Your John the Baptist example appears to be merely a bit of ’special pleading’. That account concerns the fulfillment of Isaiah 61, part of Jesus’ credentials as the Messiah.)

However, when one looks at the healings of Bentley they equate in no way with the ‘healings’ of Jesus, Paul, Peter, or anyone else in the Bible. I wonder if you can show me where ‘healing by violence’ is a work of the Holy Spirit in the Word?

I wonder also why these thousands that have been ‘healed’ by such antics are not coming forward themselves with the medical evidence that they are now completely healed. After all, one would imagine that would be the first thing a miraculously healed person would want to do.

The problem Richard is the age-old one of man’s search for power and self-glory. Simon the Sorcerer gave out “that himself was some great one” and men have been jumping on that bandwagon ever since. Simon also desired to purchase the ‘power’ of the Holy Ghost - and men are still hankering after that ‘power’ and even believe they have it at times.

Satan’s first words in the Garden were “Yea, hath God said?…” and sadly, he has been saying it ever since, and men have been believing it ever since.

I have a choice Richard, as do you, and that is to believe the Word or believe someone elses that contradicts it. I know which I will do, I just pray that your choice will be the right one also.

By Gillian on Jul 10, 2008

Rob, your arguments really are quite silly, childish, in fact, and really are self defeating.
Anyone involved in genuine healings and miracles of this magnitude would be delighted to provide objective evidence which should in fact be extremely easy to produce. Refusal to provide solid evidence is a strong admission of false witness. We are talking about objective NOT subjective evidence. People have only what Todd Bentley is telling them to base their assessment on. The Bible says to JUDGE ALL THINGS: HOLD FAST (ONLY) TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD. Bentley obviously has a vested interest in presenting his side of the story. The people have witnessed nothing. I have not even seen the man with cancer claim to be healed himself. We certainly have NO evidence that the man in question ever had cancer in the first place let alone that he may have experienced a healing of such magnitude. For all we know he may already be dead.
From the observations and experience of people investigating claims by Benny Hinn and others what these people claim is generally shown to be far removed from what anybody or anything is able to demonstrate objectively. NOT one claimed Benny Hinn healing has ever been substantiated by conclusive medical evidence. The OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT, OMNIPRESENT God of the bible does not need fabricated support nor the questionable claims of man at all. The bible however warns repeatedly of false teachers, false prophets, lying signs and wonders and the delusion sent by God to those who do not believe the truth but choose to believe lies. We are warned that the delusion sent by God will be so great the even the very elect of God will be deceived if God does not intervene.
Rob, it is time to be REAL and forget the deceptive nonsense that is being spread around in the name of hyperspirituality. Get back to the God of the bible and forget the nonsense before it is to late. JUDGE ALL THINGS BY THE CLEAR TEACHINGS OF SCRIPTURE AND HOLD FAST ONLY TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 10, 2008

ROB:
You are NOT the jury. Any informed Judge would always advise any jury that third party hear-say evidence is NOT substantive. It may be corroborative but is NOT sufficient in and of itself to prove anything. In my earlier discussion I tried to explain that the use of so called empirical evidence fails in this particular. We need objective proof and not just subjective testimony or more accurately alleged testimony.

If there were 13 genuine resurrections from the dead as is claimed by the supporters of the Lakeland Outpouring there would be a media frenzy. The world would know about it. The fact of the matter is that it’s only those who support the Lakeland movement who talk about it. The evidence is lacking.

Produce the evidence for the healing of the man who was allegedly suffering from metastatic cancer. You can’t, because there was no healing and the matter is a complete con, just as the claims about the 13 resurrections are also phony.

By philip on Jul 10, 2008

philip, I agree, that, the evidence would not convince a jury, because Todd is not willing and not able to provide it: “When asked to present evidence of the healings, Bentley promised to give [ABC’s] “Nightline” the names and medical records of three followers who would talk openly about his miracles. He never delivered. Instead, his staff gave “Nightline” a binder filled with what he says are inspiring miracles, but with scant hard evidence. It offered incomplete contact information, a few pages of incomplete medical records, and the doctors’ names were crossed out. … Not a single claim of Bentley’s healing powers could be independently verified.”

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/FaithMatters/Story?id=5338963&page=1

In response to my very friendly email to Stephen Strader requesting documentation of some of the 31 claimed resurrections, he just wrote to wait and he will see what he can get for me. Well, still waiting…

By Christian on Jul 10, 2008

Gillian

If what you say is true regarding God not being the only source of healing of the blind, the lame and the deaf: Then John the Baptist could legitimately have said to Jesus that His testimony that “the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised” being the fulfilment - as you rightly say – of Isaiah 61 is not necessarily the evidence of those credentials – because Satan or conjurers can also perform these miracles. This is the point I am making and which you are avoiding.

There is a difference between those kinds of healings and the sorcery of people such as Simon.

I did not say that Bentley is Jesus – neither does he think he is. He is just a normal bloke. Most of the healings happening at Lakeland are not by his prayers but during the worship, and also when people are praying for one another – some who are young children with remarkable results.

During their prayers they are not looking to any other source than the Lord Jesus Christ. They did not have to try and purchase this gift as Simon the sorcerer attempted - but was freely given as they trusted Jesus.

What I actually said was in the name of Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to the glory of God the Father. If this is not enough to ensure that the source is God and nothing else – then this contradicts Luke 11: 9-12.

Having been there and watched it on TV (rather than a few clips out of context on u-tube) I am assured that the power and glory that is sought at Lakeland by those on the platform and those attending – is that of God.

By Richard on Jul 10, 2008

RICHARD:

I see that Gillian has answered you regarding the source of healing–very well if I may add.

In respect of your question as to what I mean by “your side”, I would have thought the answer is obvious. I am referring to the followers and supporters of Todd Bentley and the so called Lakeland Outpouring. If you do not consider yourselves part of that group then you should say so.

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 10, 2008

Philip

I did not say I was the jury.

This is not rocket science - quite simple - if you do not trust the thousands of testimonies and the tens of thousands of eyewitnesses, then get on a plane, go to Lakeland, and see for yourself. Take someone with you who needs healing - they may just get healed.

By Rob on Jul 10, 2008

Philip

I am a follower of Jesus not Todd Bentley.

You agree with Gillian?

So what is the point of the evidence you seek that people are healed? You don’t believe that healings are taking place - but Gillian implies they are, but they are demonic. Which one is it??

By Richard on Jul 10, 2008

NO - Richard I will not do that, simply because in doing it I would be disobeying my Lord’s command:

“Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not” - Matthew 24:26.

I would open myself up to the same deception that you have, on account of the fact that I would already be deceived in degree, by disobeying the implied instruction. This idea of going somewhere to get something from God is an indictment of the essential nature and character of God, because, among other things, God is omnipresent. Therefore if I go somewhere to get something from Him I would be slighting His very being. I won’t do it.

“A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a SIGN …” and in so doing they denigrate and despise the great sign of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. You can go and keep going for you are already deceived. I won’t go.

By philip on Jul 10, 2008

ROB:
I don’t follow you about “Rocket Science.” It makes no sense to me.

However - you ask me, “Have you heard thousands of testimonies about healing? Have you personally met any of them and interviewed even just one of them?”

I know people are ALLEGING that there are many healings, but when evidence is requested there is NOTHING substantive forthcoming.

Just read what ‘Christian’ wrote above. And for the record, we have the statement of a Media Lawyer stating that what Steve Strader claimed about the legality of disclosure based on USA law (see the opening statement of this blog) is a total lie.

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 10, 2008

RICHARD:
I don’t believe the man with cancer who was kicked by Todd Bentley was healed. You and those others who support Todd Bentley and the Lakeland Outpouring claim he was healed. I have challenged you, “Where is your evidence.” I really think, Richard, that your logic is flawed and you are scraping the bottom of the barrel in your comments.

And by the way, why didn’t you fully quote the response of Jesus to the disciples of John the Baptist including the bit about them being “blessed” who are NOT offended in HIM and the bit about the “poor having the gospel preached to them”? Why do you concentrate on the supernatural healings — and of course there were genuine supernatural healings with Jesus — not phony stuff like what Todd Bentley claims. And Jesus referred to “lepers” being healed as part of His verification. So far Todd Bentley to my knowledge has not healed a leper nor claimed to. Perhaps you don’t understand the significance of “healing” a leper. I doubt you would, because basically you appear to me to be biblically illiterate yet you think you can teach others. Ah well - nothing changes really.

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 10, 2008

The gospel is being preached to the poor - both in the USA and in Africa where Bentley’s ministry cares for many orphans. Wherever they preach - many come forward to give their lives to Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Jesus indeed said blessed are those who are not offended - this too applies because we should not be offended by those who are used by Jesus today - despite tattoos and a criminal past. I only quoted the parts pertaining to healing as that is what we are discussing.

But anyway I’m not going to stick around here to be insulted - so bye.

By Richard on Jul 10, 2008

Richard,

I’m not sure exactly ‘what’ you are ‘assured’ by when watching Todd Bentley on TV that his ministry is of God, but it is certainly not the Bible.

I also think you misunderstand Luke chapter 11 - it may help if you read the whole Gospel - (would be even better if you read the whole Book). Jesus is talking about the giving of the Holy Ghost Himself - a gift given to all believers when they receive Christ as their Saviour. It has nothing to do with ‘healings’ or ‘miracles’ or ‘ministry’.

However, I would suggest that you read on a little to verse 14, where Jesus casts out the devil from a dumb man who then ’spake’ and the people wondered. Here is an example of a witness to Jesus’ healing. Firstly the man was definitely dumb, secondly when Jesus healed the man and drove out the devil he immediately ’spake’, and thirdly the people who witnessed this ‘wondered’ having seen such a blatant transformation.

Notwithstanding that Bentley is not Jesus, and won’t be walking on water any time soon, the ‘healings’ at Bentley meetings have yet to not only be verified afterwards, but documented beforehand.

I think you also forget that God has already documented and attested to these healings in His Word. Today, this cannot be so, and such claims must be ‘proved’ using the bar of scripture, which they do not stand up to.

And yes, I agree, there is a difference between the actions of Jesus and those of Simon the Sorcerer. That is exactly my point. Bentley’s healings are spurious and biblically are far more reminiscent of a Simonian ‘bewitching’.

May I ask you why you keep comparing Bentley’s healings to Jesus’?

As for the point you make about Isaiah 61 - i.e. the fulfillment of this could have been devilish according to my argument - I think you err in your understanding both of my argument and scripture.

Indeed (in Luke 11 again, please read on), the Religious leaders of the day questioned the source of Jesus’ miracles. Yet as Jesus said, they did not ‘know’ the scriptures, telling them to ’search’ them. If they had known the scriptures concerning all the other prophecies regarding Christ they would not have rejected the Lord of Glory or His attesting credentials.

I am able to reject Bentley ‘himself’ as not being ‘of God’, not simply because his ‘healings’ do not stack up with scripture, but because what he says or does completely contradicts it.

Perhaps you do not realise that providing the evidence for his healings etc. is merely one aspect of his gross deception and error.

And again ‘in the name of Jesus’ is not good enough - for one cannot ensure simply by doing something in His name that it is indeed done by the power of the Holy Spirit and to the glory of God.

And Richard, please believe me when I say there is no antagonism or malice intended in any of my posts, I merely wish you to test such notions by His whole counsel, and not just by proof texts and awkward interpretations. Surely that is HIS will in the matter.

By Gillian on Jul 10, 2008

By the way Bentley has gone right into a leper colony and prayed for them in Ghana - despite being warned that he should not. Bye

By Richard on Jul 10, 2008

You critics and sceptics just argue for the sake of arguing. Me thinks I have been throwing pearls before swine.

By Rob on Jul 10, 2008

Richard & Rob:

Your idea about THE GOSPEL and mine seem to be miles apart. I build my theology upon the biblical definition of The Gospel - see especially 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verses 1 to 8. While I agree that there is a demonstration of the power of the gospel especially to the first century Jews and Gentiles and to subsequent heathen (unreached nations) cf. Mark 16, based on the “GO” of the gospel, nowhere in the New Testament are we told to PREACH healing. Perform it YES; PREACH it - NO! That’s the basic problem.

Having defined the true GOSPEL in 1 Corinthians we are told in Galatians and elsewhere to reject any and all who “preach another Gospel” and a “different Jesus”. The true Jesus appeared to Saul of Tarsus, later called Paul “last of all”. So that was the last time Jesus would appear until He appears to ALL men at His second coming.

Todd Bentley does not preach the true GOSPEL and he has clearly been visited by an apparition who claims to be Jesus. His so called “angel EMMA” is an occult spiritistic manifestation. Another blog commenced by Peter Wagner of all people is publicising the fact that the leaders behind this “movement” consult the dead. What do you make of that?

Richard indicates that he will run away because he feels he has been insulted. When are you both going to run away from what is demonstrably demonic, deceptive and down-right devil inspired. There’s NO evidence for the healings and the resurrections that they claim. Yet you swallow their lies hook line and sinker.

Ignore the objective biblical reasoning if you will, but you will do it to your detriment and if you are not careful to your ultimate delusion.

God bless you.

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 10, 2008

There are dumb people speaking at Lakeland but its not a miracle.

By bonerman on Jul 10, 2008

Philip
Richard and Rob are right, they have been casting pearls before swine.
You do seem to argue for the sake of arguing. So, I’m not going to argue every point so that you can miss it (as you and Gillian have done) and just come back with other irrelevant points. Bentley and others who you villify preach the same gospel as Paul preached.
Just for the record (because you will come back with another argument): you have complete misconceptions regarding their visions, which are not equal to the occult practice of speaking to the dead.
Angels have appeared in various forms throughout the scriptures. Emma is a normal name. Associating it with some other entity called Emma is ludicrous - this association has taken on a life of its own and been ridiculously embellished on the internet.
Rob is right to not take insults. You should focus on the argument and not on throwing out insults when you get frustrated because someone has a different view to yours.
All biblical interpretation is subjective - including yours. Or are you infallible?
Don’t bother answering because I am also not interested in arguments that go nowhere or in being insulted, so I also am off to get on with following Jesus.

By Mark on Jul 11, 2008

MARK:

You, Richard, and Rob, can call us all the names you want - including “swine” (pigs). Your argument is self-serving and self-defeating. Anyone with normal intelligence will see through it. I won’t attempt to answer it, lest you wrongly accuse me like your supporter has of “insult”. I have insulted no-one. Just pointed out the facts.

Anyway, obviously you are entrenched in your own opinions and will not be confused with the facts, so what’s the point in continuing to discuss. Thankfully many are realizing that the Lakeland con is just that — a con.

Where’s the “evidence” for the healings and the 31 resurrections claimed? Surely one of them will stand up and identify him/herself and come forward with medical evidence. Wouldn’t it be marvellous if just one of those “raised from the dead” produced a “death certificate” which is no longer valid - hmm. Just joking!!

The whole thing would be a joke if it were NOT so serious.

In Christ who is MY life,

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 11, 2008

Philip

My theology of the gospel is also based on scriptures such as 1 Cor. 15 - so is Todd Bentley’s.

Your statement regarding not preaching healing does not make sense - everything that is biblical can be taught - does the bible say “thou shalt not preach on healing?”

Mark is right - although angels have no gender they have appeared in many forms including males - so why as a female is a problem, does not make sense. Emma is indeed a normal name.

By Chris on Jul 11, 2008

Hi Chris,

I am just wondering about your statement “angels have no gender, they have appeared in many forms including males”

Could you enlighten me just ‘where’ angels have appeared ‘in many forms’ that are not male in the scriptures please?

And also, where in their Biblical appearances they have ‘NO’ gender?

I ask this because in my Bible, where it clearly states the gender of an angel it is always male e.g. Numbers 24; Judges 6; Judges 13; Gen. 19; 1 Chr. 21, 2 Sam. 24 etc. Plus, of course the ‘Angel of the Lord’ is male.

And if this is the case, I am perplexed as to why you would claim anything different???

Thanks…

By Gillian on Jul 11, 2008

Even if “Emma” was a legitimate name for an angel, & even if it were indeed a real one, I’d still be requesting a different angel because of its previous associations with William “Serpent Seed” Branham, Bob “naked before the Lord” Jones and Paul “drunken sodomite” Cain.

By bonerman on Jul 11, 2008

I did not say that angels appear to people with no gender - I said they normally have no gender. Do you have any scripture which suggests that an angel may appear as a male but not a female?

By Chris on Jul 11, 2008

hey bonerman get a brain

By jef on Jul 11, 2008

What’s the problem jef? Todd says that “Emma” was hanging around Branham, Jones & Cain. Pretty poor choice of company IMO.

By bonerman on Jul 11, 2008

You without sin cast the first stone

By jef on Jul 11, 2008

Any way guys - its been fun.

Steve a.k.a - Anonymous, Chris, Gary, Mark, Richard, Rob, jef, apple, bish, Bob, Mike, Winston, and 4truth. :-))

By chris et al on Jul 11, 2008

Chris,

Erm, just the Bible - where all the angels are male. But, to put forth the argument for ‘realms of possibility’ from what the Bible does ‘not’ say is farcical. God’s intention is that we study what IS there. And what is there are ‘male’ angels.

By Gillian on Jul 11, 2008

Gillian

What absolute nonsense.

By Anonymous on Jul 11, 2008

As you wish Anonymous. We obviously disagree on what represents ‘nonsense’. I rather thought accurate Biblical exegesis from what God’s Word already says makes perfect sense both to God and His children. However, if you wish to believe that extra-Biblical supposition and non-scriptural eisegesis makes sense then please carry on *smile*.

To attempt to make something Biblical simply because it is not mentioned in the Bible (i.e. female angels) would appear quite ridiculous and unreasonable an argument.

By Gillian on Jul 11, 2008

so Gillian - by your reasoning, cars are not mentioned in the bible therefore they do not exist.

Please be real. Your position on angels is indeed based on eisegesis, not exegesis

By Anonymous on Jul 11, 2008

Anonymous

Your line of reasoning is flawed my friend as we are talking about stated biblical events, personages, and matters, of which angels ARE an oft mentioned part. In fact, the reasoning is a little silly if I may say so, and smacks of attempted sophistry.

So, let us indeed deal with reality as you suggest - as found in the Word of Truth. Do you have any objections to making that Book the decider of reality?

Perhaps it would therefore be better to cite scriptures for your position if you do not agree with mine.

My position on angels is Biblical. Please refute it biblically if you disagree. Please show from scripture where the gender of an angel, when given, is anything but male.

Just one verse will do.

Perhaps you may also wish to look at Revelation 21:17 where a ‘man’ and an ‘angel’ appear to be equated: “And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.”

By Gillian on Jul 11, 2008

MODERATOR’S COMMENT:

I see there are now 92 comments on this topics. Allowing for the short and sometimes silly rebuffs that is still a lot. As a moderator I’m new to this sort of thing and am not sure how to proceed so forgive me if this comment is inappropriate but it’s my attempt to summarise and hopefully point to significant conclusions:

Firstly, ANGELS are a dominant theme in the above and it can lead nowhere in a discussion. I am reminded of the mystical “argument” that is documented historically of how such ended up with men debating how many angels could balance on a pin-point. Biblically we are told that our Lord was made “a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death” and that HE is the final and full message about salvation. Colossians warns us about probing into angels, which is something that Todd Bentley et al, have either never considered or have totally ignored and disobeyed. Hence the problem.

Secondly, SOLA SCRIPTURA is the doctrine that states that the Bible is authoritative and sufficient in matters of life, doctrine and “Church” practice. It does not purport to comment on “pianos” or “cars” etc. It does however say a great deal about angels and as was correctly pointed out when gender is mentioned they are always male and never female. Biblically both William Branham and Todd Bentley err seriously when they refer to some “angel” allegedly of God as “Emma” and call her “she”. This effectively adds to scripture in a matter of doctrine and practice and is a serious departure from New Testament Christianity.

PREACHING HEALING - obviously my point about the New Testament apostles PRACTICING and not PREACHING healing was either missed or ignored. Of course it is not wrong to teach on the topic, which Todd Bentley never does. The thing that is wrong is to make the preaching of healing the cutting edge of the Christian Gospel, when the preaching of the TRUE Gospel (cf. 1 Cor, 15:1-8 etc) should be the focus. Signs and wonders were planned and promised by our Lord to FOLLOW not PRECEDE the preaching of the true Gospel. Todd Bentley and his predecessors, John Wimber and Peter Wagner have the “cart before the horse” and this is the reason that the bizarre and totally unbiblical incidents occur.

I am bemused by the comment from Chris “Steve a.k.a” (July 8 - above). It’s very sad if intelligent men think this is a joke, when peoples’ direction in life and destiny in heaven may hang in the balance. Surely the issue is a serious one.

God bless you.

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 11, 2008

Gillian

Au contraire, the logic is not flawed at all.

One can only call something unbiblical if the bible speaks against it.

We read in the Scriptures about treating strangers with care as we may be entertaining angels - there is no indication that those can only be ones appearing as males.

You are assuming that angels may never appear as female because there is no record of any appearing as such in the bible. That is an assumption, not an undisputable conclusion - for if it was - we would not have had this silly and senseless dispute about it.

I don’t know if you believe that demonic spirits can appear as female – if so, then you must accept that angels also have that ability - as demons are fallen angels.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this.

By Anonymous on Jul 11, 2008

All this discussion about angels is pointless and merely a distraction from the real issue of Salvation by the Grace of God ALONE
Justification by Faith in Jesus Christ ALONE
and SOLA SCRIPTURA The Bible ALONE is the foundation of faith and morals allowing the truly born again to live a life pleasing to the God of the Bible.
Anonymous, these pointless distractions really are very tedious. You really need to seek the ONE TRUE GOD - The God of The Bible While HE may be found,

From the “Deception Bytes” site -

Todd Bentley, who touched off the Florida outpouring (also known as the Florida Healing Revival) holds William Branham in high regard. In fact Todd Bentley claims that he now has the angel of William Branham! This must be the same angel that Branham claims did all the supernatural works in his meeting. Did you catch that? It is not the Holy Spirit who is responsible- it is an angel!

“Do not let anyone disqualify you by making you humiliate yourself and worship angels. Such people enter into visions, which fill them with foolish pride because of their human way of thinking. They do not hold tightly to Christ, the head. It is from him that all the parts of the body are cared for and held together. So it grows in the way God wants it to grow.” — Colossians 2:18-19, NCV.

The reason Paul wrote this scripture to the Colossian church was that it was being infiltrated with Gnostic teachings. The Gnostics valued what they experienced and what they learned from ‘angels” over Holy Scripture. (Is any of this sounding familiar?) These Gnostics claimed they believed in scripture but did not depend on it as their source!

The following explanation of modern Gnostics come from “Angel Worship” taken from www.bibletools.org and sums up Gnosticism beautifully. Modern Gnostics who believe in “progressive revelation” have also succumbed to this first of Satan’s ploys. While God does reveal things to us, the critical point is that what is revealed—if it truly comes from Him—will never contradict what He has already revealed in His Word. “God is not a man that He should lie” (Numbers 23:19).

Progressive revelation advocates believe that their revelations are more authoritative than the Bible, rather than complementing and harmonizing with it, making them ripe for satanic influence under the guise of God revealing something new to them. They may sincerely believe that God speaks to them, yet they simultaneously mistrust what He has already said in inspired Scripture. They tend to shy away from Bible study, concluding that they do not need it since God speaks directly to them, and if there is anything important, God will let them know.

Galatians 1:8 ….”though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

This is the Word of God the final arbiter on matters of faith and truth.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 11, 2008

I agree with Wayne Capell that much of this discussion has become pointless and some of it useless. However it has demonstrated the differences between those who accept the Bible for what it is, God’s Word, totally authoritative, directive and sufficient in matters of morality and doctrine.
To this extent I have to agree with Gillian that “Anonymous” undermines one of the principal tenets of the Reformation - Sola Scriptura - by Scripture alone. His is conjecture. Gillian, Wayne and others who support our view base our reasoning on Scripture.
The other issue which we are in danger of losing sight of is that genuine authentic healings will be verified by substantive proof. Where is the evidence for the healings and resurrections claimed by the Lakeland movement?
There is NO substantive evidence because the miracles are phony.
Seeing this argument, about angels, has become circular, do you think we should close it and let the matter stand as is?
Philip L. Powell.

By Anonymous on Jul 11, 2008

Philip

The evidence is clear for all to see when people come back to the meetings and publically testify of thier healings. If you are not willing to watch this either by going to Lakeland or on the telly, then your sincerity is in doubt as to seeking the truth of this matter.

You have no evidence, or complaints, or even hearsay, that people such as the man in question - who were recipients of Bentley’s sometimes unusual methods - were hurt and not healed.

Until then you really have nothing of substantial weight to say, and this, too, just becomes a pointless and circular argument.

By Anonymous on Jul 12, 2008

Yes, I agree re: angels

I was thinking last night as I posted that this ‘angels’ thing is taking away from the real issue of this blog, (and that’s probably my fault - apologies all round) yet posted anyway! It’s a bit difficult (she said in a barely audible whisper) not to answer such unbiblical claims - even when one knows they are a ’sideline’.

However, I’m not so sure it was pointless (maybe it was - I defer to others of course) as I think the point was made that the Bible will not support many things from Bentley’s ministry, not just the ‘healings.’

That appears to be the crux of the matter as ever - the adherence to the scriptures. What is truly saddening is that it is people who claim to believe the Bible that deny their very writings in order to continue believing something other. Without doubt this only results in a mad scrambling for a verse or two that might be wrestable enough to, in some small way, support their beliefs.

The honest position then would be to admit that in spite of the lack of ‘healing’ evidence, and in spite of what the Bible says, such a person ‘wants’ to believe these antics anyway so they shall.

And as for ‘preaching healing’, I shall stick with the Bible which says we are to preach Christ Jesus the Lord and ourselves as servants for His sake (2 Cor. 4:5)

By Gillian on Jul 12, 2008

Anonymous

The onus of proof is upon those doing the ‘claiming.’ It is for them to prove healings occurred, not for anyone else to prove they did not occur.

That is a scriptural principle - Jesus told the healed to go “shew thyself”.

By Gillian on Jul 12, 2008

Again you miss the point Gillian - because you argue without really reading and understanding what your opponent is saying. I’m not saying you must agree but at least understand what it is you are criticising - and that goes the same for Lakeland. What you critics are criticising and the actual event are 2 entirely different things.

As I said - they do “shew thyself” every evening before thousands in the tent and millions on TV. Please open your eyes and have a look.

By Anonymous on Jul 12, 2008

Anonymous, it is time for you to open your eyes to the deception we have all been warned about but only some of us are prepared to acknowledge. God will send delusion to ALL who refuse to believe and love the truth. The bible warns that even the very elect of God will be deceived unless HE intervenes.
What you are defending is a significant part of that delusion.

“JUDGE ALL THINGS _ HOLD FAST ONLY TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD” and reject the nonsense as wholeheartedly as possible. This is the advice which you really need to accept at this critical time in your life. Once again I urge you to seek the ONE TRUE GOD - THE GOD OF THE BIBLE BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.

Those of us determined to be guided by scripture alone are obviously “casting pearls before swine” in trying to lead you to a scriptural understanding of the spiritual dangers associated with what you are obviously desperate to defend.

We have tried to lead you towards the God of the Bible rather than the false God of the Gnostics but you are determined, desperate even to remain in your error and to chase after falsehood.

Go after your false signs and wonders and be one of the deceived as you are so desperate to be.

It is time to leave you to your deception and “may heaven help you on the judgement day.”

By Wayne Capell on Jul 12, 2008

… and before their pastors, their churches, their families, their friends, and their doctors.

By Anonymous on Jul 12, 2008

Anonymous your repeated reference to this discredited nonsense in Lakeland is pointless and merely a distraction from the real issue of Salvation by the Grace of God ALONE
Justification by Faith in Jesus Christ ALONE
and SOLA SCRIPTURA The Bible ALONE is the foundation of faith and morals allowing the truly born again to live a life pleasing to the God of the Bible.

Anonymous, these pointless distractions really are very tedious. You really need to seek the ONE TRUE GOD - The God of The Bible While HE may be found,

From the “Deception Bytes” site -

Todd Bentley, who touched off the Florida outpouring (also known as the Florida Healing Revival) holds William Branham in high regard. In fact Todd Bentley claims that he now has the angel of William Branham! This must be the same angel that Branham claims did all the supernatural works in his meeting. Did you catch that? It is not the Holy Spirit who is responsible- it is an angel!

“Do not let anyone disqualify you by making you humiliate yourself and worship angels. Such people enter into visions, which fill them with foolish pride because of their human way of thinking. They do not hold tightly to Christ, the head. It is from him that all the parts of the body are cared for and held together. So it grows in the way God wants it to grow.” — Colossians 2:18-19, NCV.

The reason Paul wrote this scripture to the Colossian church was that it was being infiltrated with Gnostic teachings. The Gnostics valued what they experienced and what they learned from ‘angels” over Holy Scripture. (Is any of this sounding familiar?) These Gnostics claimed they believed in scripture but did not depend on it as their source!

The following explanation of modern Gnostics come from “Angel Worship” taken from www.bibletools.org and sums up Gnosticism beautifully. Modern Gnostics who believe in “progressive revelation” have also succumbed to this first of Satan’s ploys. While God does reveal things to us, the critical point is that what is revealed—if it truly comes from Him—will never contradict what He has already revealed in His Word. “God is not a man that He should lie” (Numbers 23:19).

Progressive revelation advocates believe that their revelations are more authoritative than the Bible, rather than complementing and harmonizing with it, making them ripe for satanic influence under the guise of God revealing something new to them. They may sincerely believe that God speaks to them, yet they simultaneously mistrust what He has already said in inspired Scripture. They tend to shy away from Bible study, concluding that they do not need it since God speaks directly to them, and if there is anything important, God will let them know.

Galatians 1:8 ….”though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

This is the Word of God the final arbiter on matters of faith and truth.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 12, 2008

This message is for you anonymous - take heed before it is too late for you.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 12, 2008

Wayne, I have no problem about judgement day as I put my faith in the risen Lord Jesus Christ, and His atoning work at Calvary. I have a relationship with God by the precious Holy Spirit.

By Anonymous on Jul 12, 2008

Then how have you allowed yourself to become so deceived by the falsehood you seem so desperate to defend.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 12, 2008

My dear, dear Anonymous,

You suggest that ‘returning to the meetings and testifying publicly to their healings” is the same as the verification Jesus commanded.

Not so my friend. The “shew thyself” of Jesus was an aspect of the verification requirements of healing stated in Leviticus chapters 13 and 14. In these chapters you will see that first a condition had to be present, then publicly identified, then treated and monitored over time. Afterwards it was the priest that declared the afflicted ‘clean’ or ‘unclean’ through comparison with the initial evidence of disease. The Lord then, in chapter 14 commands that a sacrifice be made, just as Jesus says to do in Matt.8:4, Mark 1:44, Luke 5:14.

Christ and His Word call for attestation, and Lev. 13 & 14, which Jesus fulfilled, also call for it beforehand.

Therefore, if this was good enough for Jesus, why is it not good enough for Todd Bentley and his followers?

By Gillian on Jul 12, 2008

Many will call him Lord on the judgement day and Jesus will say “depart from me I never knew you: you workers of iniquity.”

Only those who stay faithful to the TRUTH of GOD as presented to us in the BIBLE will be truly saved on the judgement day.

Biblical salvation is for the glory of God.

The bible says “even the wicked were created for HIS glory.”

By Wayne Capell on Jul 12, 2008

My dear dear dear Gillian,

That is what the Jews had to do in their 2nd temple period. In our period and culture the equivalent is testifying and showing oneself before the meeting where one was healed and family, friends, work colleagues, pastors, home congregation, and doctors. Not pandering to the intimidation and manipulation of sceptics.

By Anonymous on Jul 12, 2008

Wayne

All who do not have that intimate relationship (’ginosko’- Greek for experiential, intimate knowledge that Christ used in that scripture) will not enter His kingdom - whether you pray for people to be healed or not.

By Anonymous on Jul 12, 2008

Anonymous, these pointless distractions really are very tedious. You really need to seek the ONE TRUE GOD - The God of The Bible While HE may be found and forego the delusions of false religion.

From the “Deception Bytes” site -

Todd Bentley, who touched off the Florida outpouring (also known as the Florida Healing Revival) holds William Branham in high regard. In fact Todd Bentley claims that he now has the angel of William Branham! This must be the same angel that Branham claims did all the supernatural works in his meeting. Did you catch that? It is not the Holy Spirit who is responsible- it is an angel!

“Do not let anyone disqualify you by making you humiliate yourself and worship angels. Such people enter into visions, which fill them with foolish pride because of their human way of thinking. They do not hold tightly to Christ, the head. It is from him that all the parts of the body are cared for and held together. So it grows in the way God wants it to grow.” — Colossians 2:18-19, NCV.

The reason Paul wrote this scripture to the Colossian church was that it was being infiltrated with Gnostic teachings. The Gnostics valued what they experienced and what they learned from ‘angels” over Holy Scripture. (Is any of this sounding familiar?) These Gnostics claimed they believed in scripture but did not depend on it as their source!

The following explanation of modern Gnostics come from “Angel Worship” taken from www.bibletools.org and sums up Gnosticism beautifully. Modern Gnostics who believe in “progressive revelation” have also succumbed to this first of Satan’s ploys. While God does reveal things to us, the critical point is that what is revealed—if it truly comes from Him—will never contradict what He has already revealed in His Word. “God is not a man that He should lie” (Numbers 23:19).

Progressive revelation advocates believe that their revelations are more authoritative than the Bible, rather than complementing and harmonizing with it, making them ripe for satanic influence under the guise of God revealing something new to them. They may sincerely believe that God speaks to them, yet they simultaneously mistrust what He has already said in inspired Scripture. They tend to shy away from Bible study, concluding that they do not need it since God speaks directly to them, and if there is anything important, God will let them know.

Galatians 1:8 ….”though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

This is the Word of God the final arbiter on matters of faith and truth.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 12, 2008

Yes Wayne these pointless distractions are tedious so please stop it.

By Anonymous on Jul 12, 2008

The Word of God is NOT tedious to those who are being saved according to HIS WORD.

Seek HIM in accordance with HIS WORD while there is yet time for you.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 12, 2008

I just found this on another blog:

+++ Canadian Todd Bentley leaves Lakeland ‘revival’ after expose [on ABC Nightline] +++
http://www.benedictionblogson.com/2008/07/12/canadian-todd-bentley-leaves-from-lakeland-revival-after-expose/

Further down in the Article there is a link to an interview series with the man supposedly healed (by kneeing) of 4th stage cancer, the one who is the topic of this thread. Apparently his name is ‘Roger’…

Part 1
http://newleaven.com/2008/07/10/exclusive-an-interview-with-mr-roger-the-man-on-the-todd-bentley-video-pt1/

I hope somebody could verify the veracity of the interview or the trustworthiness of the blogger.

By Christian on Jul 12, 2008

Wayne

The word of God is not tedious but your constant drawing of straw men is.

By Anonymous on Jul 12, 2008

All this is completely irrelevant because miracles and healings from God ceased in the apostolic age. Anything supernatural (if indeed it is not a con) can only be demonic.

By Dan on Jul 12, 2008

You Christians are all naive and should be removed from the gene pool.

By jason on Jul 12, 2008

Anonymous,

No matter what dispensation you wish to cite, the fact remains that both the Old and New Testaments demand that events be ‘proved’. 1 Thess. 5:21 says that must be the case for ‘all things’. ‘ALL’ things undoubtedly means ‘all things.’

It also says in Gal. 6:4, let every man ‘prove’ his own work. Therefore, why is not Todd Bentley rushing to ‘prove’ his ‘work’ as a work ‘of God’ by methods that are commonly acceptable i.e. comparative medical evidence.

If God encourages us to even prove and test ‘Him’ and HIS works (Malachi 3:10) then what is the problem? Apparently, this ‘ministry’ when asked for proof are not even saying as you, in effect, do that ‘word of mouth is fine as proof’, but are claiming they cannot provide documented medical evidence due to imagined legalities. If they believed providing medical evidence was completely unneccesary as ‘proof’ then why are they finding excuses not to do so - surely they would rather say ‘we don’t need to’ and not ‘we would of course, and are attempting to, but we can’t.’ They obviously realise it ’should’ be forthcoming, even if it isn’t.

You, on the other hand, appear to believe even less than they do - that word of mouth is sufficient.

I think, my friend, that you are so determined to accept such antics that you willingly reject the Word you claim to believe.

A question for yourself might be ‘WHY?’

By Gillian on Jul 12, 2008

Medical Evidence for the Healing of the Man with Stage 4 metastatic Cancer?

From an interview with *the man*, ‘Roger’:

‘Were you completely healed?’

Here are the facts in his own words; ‘I want to make this very clear, that I NEVER said I was healed. […] They asked me, “Are you saying you are healed?” I said, “Well I guess it just depends on how you view that. All I know, is that I was going to have a significant drop in my #” […] the doctor did some calculating and he looked up with a grin on his face and said “You had a 53% drop in your #, I would say that is pretty significant.” I had never had a drop like that in my #’s’

You can read the whole interview at benedictionblogson DOT com

After reading both parts, it sounds pretty genuine to me. It would be nice, if someone could take the time to verify, that Roger is really the one he claims to be.

I remember Todd Bentley claimed on a subsequent night that this man had been *healed* (the video is on youtube). The testimony of Roger is a lot less certain, as he only reports a medically confirmed improvement in the numbers, but nothing that would be called healed-of-cancer, as he is continuing his treatment: ‘I NEVER said I was healed.’ — So who said it?

(Note: It seems my previous post did not show up due to the embedded web links. If it still gets posted, it’ll probably end up after this one and be somewhat redundant)

By Christian on Jul 12, 2008

yep - see his story on http://www.benedictionblogson.com/

By Anonymous on Jul 12, 2008

Ok, I’ll state the obvious.

Three points:

Firstly this man, God bless him, does not claim to be ‘healed’ only that his doctor told him his CEA levels had dropped.

Secondly, Carcinogenic Embryonic Antigen levels are used as a ‘Tumour Marker’ to assess the effectiveness of a clinical treatment. The man, if I understand correctly, on the video said he had had treatment that Friday, and the news from the doctor came in a follow-up appointment.

Thirdly, when God heals a person, it is instant and not a matter of partial healing or the improvement of a condition, it is complete and lasting as per His Word.

Obviously this poor man is still suffering from cancer.

By Gillian on Jul 12, 2008

MODERATOR HERE:
This topic was an effort to establish clear evidence for a claim. It now seems that at last we may be getting somewhere, thanks to the latest comment by “Christian” and the follow-up analysis by Gillian with which we must agree. Meanwhile having read the interview with Roger and part 2 of his story I have contacted the blog as follows and will hope to report any response:

Philip L. POWELL wrote:
On our CWM blog - http://www.christian -witness.org/blog/ - you’ll find “Please Provide the Medical Evidence for the Healing of the Man with Stage 4 metastatic Cancer”. This created an email frenzy. We are grateful to you for the interview with “ROGER” which has been most helpful.

I presume that you have verified that this is indeed the “right” man, who was kicked (or was he kneed) by Todd Bentley? Has anyone established that the count drop had something to do with what appeared to be the trauma reaction by “Roger” from being kicked? Can we establish if the count lowering has continued, remained static or increased?

Your work is appreciated and to the extent that it goes it has been helpful in establishing the fact that “Roger” does not at this point in time claim that he was healed.

Thank you and God bless you.

Sincerely in Christ,

Revd Philip L. POWELL - Brisbane, Australia.

Website: www.cwm.org

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 12, 2008

Sometimes God heals instantly, sometimes gradually (whether naturally or miraculously)

Obviously the man was not hurt by Bentley.

I hope that the media and other dogs will leave the poor man alone.

By Anonymous on Jul 12, 2008

Phillip:

Thank you for the link and your email, I’ll send Roger’s name and contact information privately.

By all means take the information provided at BDBO and verify, source, re-source and fact check.

By Bene Diction on Jul 12, 2008

Thank you “Bene Diction” for your comment and for Roger’s email address. I have now written to him and am hoping for a reply either to my private email address or on this blog.

God bless you.

Philip L. POWELL.

By Anonymous on Jul 13, 2008

Dear Philip,

Sorry I’m just getting back to you. Let me address your questions.

I trust you do not mind my asking you a few simple questions:

1) Are you the person about whom this issue concerns? -Yes

2) My understanding is that you received some medical treatment just prior to your visit to Florida. Is this correct?
-Yes, we left on a Sunday, 1 week prior to leaving, on a Friday, I had gotten marked & tattoo’d to get ready for radiation therapy, 2 days later on a Sunday, I received a call from a friend at church asking if I had heard what was going on in Florida. I told him that I briefly heard a little about it, so he proceeded to tell me more about what was going on. He then told me him & his business partner were gonna go and he invited me to go. He then asked if I had any opinion about these types of revivals. I told him “I believe that God can still do miracles”, “I believe that God can still heal”, and “I don’t believe that God will only do these things in a certain venue. God can do these things whenever & wherever he chooses”. I then said
“I guess the thing that kinda rubs me wrong, is as an example Benny Hinn, although I’m sure that some wonderful things happen during his services, why does he along with others dress sometimes in all white, as if to have the light shining on them. Making it appear that it is them that are making things happen”.
Now, that may not be the way they intend that, but that is the perception that is given off. Also, I questioned [as so many other people have] ” So, who are these people that get up on stage? Are they hand picked? Are they compensated?”, well I did tell them that I also believe that God presents us with opportunities & if I passed up going, I would’ve been passing up an opportunity. I went with an open mind, open heart, & open eyes to the best of my ability. I also made it clear that I was not going with an expectation that if something did not happen to me, then I would think everything was a sham.

3) Were you actually kicked by Todd Bentley? -I was actually knee’d. Yes, he made full contact with my abdomen area.

4) Has your blood count continued to fall, remained static or increased? -My # that we gauge has dropped a bit more. We will check it again in 2 weeks.

5) Do you or does your medical practitioner attribute what happened to medical treatment or to this claimed “miracle”?
-Well, I attribute what has been happening to God. See, while I was in Florida, I told the guys I went with the day before we left to go back home, that I just knew that I was going to have a significant drop in my # (CEA - Carcinogenic Embryonic Antigen). They asked, ” Are you saying you are healed?”. I said “I guess it just depends on how you look at that, all I know, is that my #’s are going to have a significant drop and I’m gonna have alot of people scratching ther heads.” Well, when we got back on a Wed., I had chemo treatment on that Friday and we also drew my #’s. My nurse said ” I guess I’ll be hearing from you on Tues.” She said that because I usually don’t get my results until then. I told her “When you see my #’s, she along with a lot of other people, were going to be scratching their heads trying to figure out what is going on.” Well, on Monday, I had an appointment with my radiation doctor so we could go over what the radiation plan was going to be. He asked, if I had gotten my #’s yet. I told him that I usually don’t get them until Tuesday. He said, “let me see if I can get the results off of there system”. He was able to get the results and he said that my # had went from “8.3″ to “4.1″. My wife and I looked at each other and I then said to him “Let me tell you what happened to me last week…” I proceeded to tell him everything and told him that I just knew that I was going to have a significant drop in my #. He then started to do some calculating. He looked up at us with this grin on his face and said “You had a 53% drop in your #’s, I would say that is pretty significant”. I had never had a drop in my # like that before. He then said, “Well from a doctor’s point of view, we still proceed right into radiation”, he then said ” but from not a doctor’s point of view, I do believe that there can be divine intervention. Now, is this happening to you? Well, it could be”. We discussed our options and decided to take a CT of that area instead of going right into things.
I called the doctor a few days after the scans and the 1st thing out of his mouth was, ” Roger, I’m not sure what to do with you.” I asked if he had a chance to look at my scans and he said he did and upon looking at them, he could not see anything anymore. He said, he then called the radiologist to consult with and he said the radiologist had to point him to the area. My doctor then told me that after being guided by the other doctor, that he could see a very small spot and if that was it, it had gotten significantly smaller. He also said, “We’re just scratching our heads over this.” Coincidence?
The other thing I wanted to mention, was that when we did the marking & tattooing on that Friday, I was told to expect a call on Monday or Tuesday from the doctor to go over the plan and get started. I thought to myself, “Well, I guess I’ll just have to tell them that I was going to be leaving for Florida on Sunday & would not be back until Wed. so they were going to have to wait until I returned. Well, Monday came and no call, Tuesday, no call, Wed, Thurs, Fri., Sat, no call. So Sunday came and off I went. Well then Monday again, no call, Tues, no call, Wed., no call. I return from Florida Weds evening. I then get a call the following day on Thursday. Here again “Coincidence?”. I see it that God made it possible for me to take this trip & not have to worry about putting anything off or making people wait for me.

6) When I watched the You-Tube I gained the impression that the man who was kicked was surprised by what happened, were you in any way injured by the “kick”? -No, I was not injured. Although, I was suprised.

7) Would you describe it as a “kick” or as being “kneed”? -Knee’d

Anything you can tell me about this incident and about your current health in regard to it would be most appreciated.

-Everything is going well now, I just wanted to add, that I could tell that the video was edited, There was a piece missing. You see, after he knee’d me, I did go down to a knee. However, it did not knock me backwards where I am stumbling. He was asking how I was feeling & if I was dizzy. The part that is missing, is that while I was down on my knee, he had placed 1 hand on my upper back & the other hand on my arm. While I was down, Todd said “You have some back problems don’t you?” I said “Yes”, he then said “I can feel it”. I then stood up, he moved his hand down my back and said “it’s your lower back, isn’t it?” In the video, you see that it looks as if I’m smiling or laughing. What it is, is that I was smiling & kinda chuckling in amazement because after he said it’s in your lower back I proceeded to tell him & all the other people that were there, that “Yes, I do have back problems and it is in my lower back. As a matter of fact, I have 8 screws, 2 rods & cages in my lower back”. Todd then looked at me and said “The anointing is all over you”. He then blew in my face and took 2 fingers and slightly poked them into my stomach and said “Your back pain is gone”, & it was after he poked me that I stumbled backwards and then dropped to a knee again. Now, you would’ve thought that being knee’d would make me stumble backwards, but it didn’t, it was just a slight poke of the fingers that made me do that. I was not going along with anything. I have never experienced anything like that before in my life. So I tell people now, that I have to believe that there is some validity in these types of services/revivals, because I was that person that I used to wonder about. Now, are some people faking it or over-reacting? I’m sure there are some. The only ones that truly know if God has truly touched them is that individual & God. All others can only comment & give their opinions.

I can say from my heart that God has truly shown his grace with me. I KNOW that it was through God (NOT TODD) that my #’s had a significant drop. Just too many “Coincidences”. Like I said, if anyone has thoughts of uncertainty or unbelief, it does not bother me and does not offend me, because the way I see it, is that it is not “Me” they are unsure of, it is “God”. I know that he truly has been working in me and I feel I have to share with as many as I can how great our God is, and hopefully in the process will at least spark some interest in those that are unsure of God to at least want to learn more about him.

I hope this has helped. May God bless you all.

- Roger

By -Roger on Jul 18, 2008

That is wonderful news Roger - God is so good and merciful. I pray that you will recover completely.

God Bless

By Anonymous on Jul 19, 2008

God bless you too Roger.
It is always great to hear of people being healed and set free. I praise the Lord for the grace of God that you have testified of.

By Wayne Capell on Jul 19, 2008

This is a very busy board.:^)

I’m glad Roger was able to respond to Christian Witness.
I’m not a minister, my background is journalism and I am a Christian who knows Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I believe scripture, we all have different gifts which help us work together in the body of Christ to glorify Him.

Two quick things before I cut and paste what I put online in my corner of the world.

After seeing Roger drop in Lakeland I was deeply concerned. Kneeing someone who has battled metastasized cancer in the abdomen can cause internal bleeding and as all of you know, there was no way of knowing if Roger was dead or alive.

I’m here at Christian Witness because you guys have a moderator who is interested in truth.

Fresh Fire Ministries (and associates) have not been forthcoming in the minor attention he received in my country, other than acknowledging documented information in a 2001 interview.
The same lack of transparency has occurred on a much wider scale in the US. Those of you interested in Third Wave/Manifest Sons of God/Prophetic/Apostolic spurts have seen this all before.

However, and this is a strong however, this is Rogers story.
I would ask you uphold Roger in your prayers. I would also ask you to pray for each other, for your moderators, techs, and for each of who make up this community. Salu, BD.

http://www.benedictionblogson.com/2008/07/18/rogers-story-the-stage-4-cancer-patient-assaulted-by-todd-bentley-questions-by-australia-ministry/

“After Roger’s emails regarding his Lakeland experience was posted at BDBO I was contacted by Philip L. Powell of Christian Witness Org in Australia.

I like Philip Powell, have concerns.

1) We need someone with the resources to verify Roger is the Roger in the video face to face.
2) We need someone with the resources to meet Roger to obtain medical documentation among other things. (It is not illegal in the US or against privacy laws for a patient to give that information)

The bible tells us to get witnesses, and do proper documentation.

I do not have the resources, I don’t trust the internet, and I don’t trust Fresh Fire Ministries. There is no room to be naive. Companies, governments, groups and individuals with agendas post false information online all the time. You can see a major US ministry PR firm did some misrepresentation a couple of posts down.

I know Roger would understand my concerns and he has been as forthcoming as possible considering the distance. I am in Canada, Philip Powell is in Australia.
The west coast of the US might as well be the moon for us.
It is not Roger’s responsibility to come to us.

I have made it clear to Roger that questioning for verification is not about his sincerity and honesty (or God’s credibility) it is merely common sense. Roger understands that and did what he could by sending New Leaven and BDBO his picture.

More has to be done so his words are not taken and twisted.”

By Bene D on Jul 19, 2008

Could Todd Bentley be another Jim Jones? In the early stages of his ministry there are striking similarities between Bentley and Jones. In 1955, Jones was prayed for in a Latter Rain Pentecostal Conference by O.L. Jaggers who pronounced that he had a very special prophetic calling on his life. Years later when he founded the People’s Temple, Jones used faith healing to draw the masses much in the same way Bentley has in Lakeland. It may be a little premature to say Bentley is treading the same course as Jones, but I think it is a possibility we must be aware of. After all no one ever thought Jones would go to the extent he did by getting 918 people to commit suicide through drinking kool-aid laced with cyanide. Bentley’s claims show that he is very dangerous spiritually as he has placed much emphasis on angels, third heaven experiences, and has claimed experiences where his spirit left his body which is known to New Agers as astral projection. Could Bentley be even more than just a spiritual danger? Could he be leading his followers down the same course that Jim Jones led the People’s Temple in 1978 to the greatest mass cult suicide in history?

http://toddbentleyjimjones.blogspot.com/2008/07/jim-jones-and-todd-bentley.html

By Chadwick Harvey on Jul 30, 2008

CHADWICK - thanks for your comment!

Sadly people woke up all too late in the “Jim Jones” case. Since then of course there is more openness to examination due to electronic communication.

What is happening at Lakeland and now in other places, including Australia, due to the naive acceptance of sensational seekers such as Danny Nalliah of Catch the Fire Ministries DOES have many of the hall marks of a “cult” in emerging stages.

Personally I think you are right and this calls for alarm.

By Philip L. POWELL on Jul 31, 2008

Richard, you wrote:

“The gospel is being preached to the poor - both in the USA and in Africa where Bentley’s ministry cares for many orphans. Wherever they preach - many come forward to give their lives to Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Jesus indeed said blessed are those who are not offended - this too applies because we should not be offended by those who are used by Jesus today - despite tattoos and a criminal past. I only quoted the parts pertaining to healing as that is what we are discussing.

“But anyway I’m not going to stick around here to be insulted - so bye.”

By Richard on Jul 10, 2008

Have you lived in Africa? Have you seen the suffering caused by people like Todd Bentley? I suspect not!

What amazes me about you is that you castigate every one else and we are to be “pleasant” towards you, but when the tables are turned you don’t like it!

As I read through this blog and see your comments, I’m convinced that no matter how “black” something is you will always argue that it is “white” - regardless of the evidence before your eyes.

The Scriptures commended the Bereans for checking the “teachings of Paul” (Acts 17:11) and commands us to “test the spirits” (1Jo 4), as Gillian wrote to you, and now you argue that we shouldn’t. Bentley does not stand up under scrutiny from the Scriptures - should we believe you (or Bentley, Hinn, Howard-Brown) rather God? I think not!

And as for “healings and such”, yes Satan can do those too - not real ones. Only Christ can do real ones, and others that are given the “right” to do so by HIM. Bentley worships angels - which is forbidden by the BIBLE!

And if you think that Satan doesn’t have power then you are very mistaken. You don’t know your Bible Doctrines. How about reading the BIBLE from God’s point of view instead of the notions of wicked men like Bentley? You may learn something!!!

Excellent work Gillian, may the Lord bless you.

from the Little Frail Bark.

By John Douven on Nov 30, 2008

Philip:

I’m still not convinced that Roger is the man in the video. Somehow there is still much to be understood about “Roger” and, yes I’m skeptical! We must remember that our GOD will never work in a way that is contrary to HIS nature and that is contrary to Scripture. And I will not be convinced until the Lord makes it known to me.

Dan argued his point about the fact that these things have ceased - however he did not quote any scriptural support. This is a Reformed position - really on the matter of tongues - which I cannot ascribe to because it depends on one’s interpretation of the words, “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” My opinion - note I said “opinion” - is that the word “perfect” is a reference to Christ (at the Second Coming). It is then that we shall see HIM as HE is and not “through a glass darkly” as we do now.

Well I disagree with Dan because miracles happen every day. The fact that a sinner is saved is a miracle, and a mystery, in itself. I have seen miracles, signs and wonders happen to me in my life - I hesitate to elaborate on my conversion and my life (for fear of PRIDE) - and Praise the Lord HE DID IT ALL. The resounding echo that seems to have been the reason for keeping me on the “right way” has been - I paraphrase - “put not your trust in men.” So I’ve put my trust in the Lord and He has not failed me these many years.

So my question is this, why should I trust Bentley? Bentley’s teachings are faulty and at the best gibberish; his ways are like the harlot’s - you cannot know them. If the core is rotten so is the apple. Bentley’s ways are contrary to Christ’s ways (or the Apostles for that matter). I don’t see my Lord kicking and punching as Bentley does! The Scriptures inform me that Christ, when HE stood before Pilate, could have call 12 legions of angels if HE really wanted to. Bentley has been calling angels down and I haven’t seen one yet! Never mind 12 legions.

In fact, if I remember correctly, 90% of the healings that my Lord did in His time on earth, HE SPOKE or BREATHED on the sick which gives one the idea that HE had authority and HE did not need to touch. HE COMMANDED and it was done. The woman who had been sick for 18 years touched the hem of HIS garment - Our Lord did not do the touching. And when our Lord did touching the language implies that it was a gentle touch. NOT A PUNCH!

Our Lord Jesus Christ came and sacrificed Himself to save sinners. Bentley comes to save his own pocket and sacrifice naive souls in the process - making mockery of the work Jesus had done on the cross.

This is my warning to Bentley and others like him and their followers:
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

No, I’m not convinced. Definitely another in ilk of Jim Jones.

Brothers and Sisters, let us beware lest we too get caught in spider’s web.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

From the Little Frail Bark…

By John Douven on Nov 30, 2008

Hello!

Dear Brother/Sister in Christ!

Greetings in the blessed name of Jesus Christ!

Thank you for your helpful and hopeful encourageable visiting website and taking interest in you ministry. We brief to you we are doing here in Pakistan self-support and on faith, pitiable circumstance? I and my ministry, family appreciate it very much. We don’t forget to you & your wonderful family, ministry? I hope & believe in Christ you are not forgotten to me and our ministry, poor, orphan children, widows and poor Christian family’s needs. I have not any word for your thanks. I know that you have a great burden in your heart for sick, suffering, homeless, poor orphan, street wondering children, widows and poor Christian families in around the world and especially Pakistani poor Christian families. I know that God give you a great vision, burden, painful heart and great gift saving, unsaved, unbelievers, sick, suffering, homeless, poor orphan, street wondering children, widows and poor Christian families. I know that you are blessed & anointed minister the word of God in several nations and provide physical, spiritual and financial help to sick, suffering, poor orphan, and street wondering Children widows, unsaved people and others.

Dear Brother/Sister in Christ! Today we are sharing with you currently living, income and daily earring position of Pakistani Christian families in our area. At present Pakistani Christian families live in very narrow houses with out of any health& food facility and earning sources are limited. They eat what they earn they could not save any thing and spend for their children betterment. The Christians Families is very poor they do their wages with the landlords, who give them very less wages and they do not spend their lives in good manners. Most of people are under debt. They took their Children in Childhood for labor and thus the Children remain illiterate. Some people are work on the (Bhattah) to make the bricks. The bricks making wages is not enough that they could have also good livings. Most of Christian people are forced to have their wives and Children to help their parents to make the bricks. When the weather is not clear and rainy season their work stopped they become out of labor, their income sources are stop and some days they remain without food. These families are living such kind of poor and pitiable condition.

Dear Brother/Sister in Christ! We are brief to you regarding the facing different problems of many ten Christian families from village & town area. I and my team visited every week’s poor families to different village & town and collects information of Christian families facing many problems like monthly family eating, Children school fees, shoes, uniform expenses. Trustily this week I have visited ten Christian families and meet with them and every family have a 5 to 8 members and every family condition are very pitiable and these ten Christian families are deserved assistance. At present ten Christian families are facing poverty, economy, and financial problems lack of finances. Surely my soul is much confused after seeing very pitiable condition of ten Christian families living in my area. I have decision providing foods package among with ten Christian families. I request to you please contributions with us providing foods package among with ten Christian families. Please consider our request. Please keep in touch with us. I hope & believe you don’t disappoint to me before time. I’m waiting for your most urgent reply.

Dear Brother/Sister in Christ! We have planned distributing foods package among with teen Christian families only. I hope & believe you provide some things help for our sick, suffering, homeless, street wondering Children, widows and poor Christian families in Pakistan. We will brief to you kinds of things and urgent, necessary items list. Please see our urgent, necessary items list is given below:-

SR/No Items Require Amounts
01 Ghee $06.00 US Dollars
02 Sugar $02.00 US Dollars
03 Pulse $05.00 US Dollars
04 Meat $04.00 US Dollars
05 Rice $02.00 US Dollars
06 Flour $12.00 US Dollars
07 Butter $08.00 US Dollars
08 Tea $03.00 US Dollars
09 Vegetable $06.00 US Dollars
10 Milk $02.00 US Dollars
11 Soap $01.00 US Dollars
12 Shampoo $03.00 US Dollars
13 Tooth Paste $02.00 US Dollars
14 Tooth-brush $01.00 US Dollars
15 Surf $01.00 US Dollars
16 Chili $02.00 US Dollars
17 Salt $00.50 US Dollars
18 Total Amounts $60.50 US Dollars

Dear Brother/Sister in Christ! We want to inform you that one package amount ($60.50 US Dollars) we have urgent needs ($60.50 x 10.families = $605.00 US Dollars) only. We have urgent ($605.00 US Dollars) required amounts for distributing foods package among with ten Christian families.

As always we give thanks to God for all He is doing. The PSSWS ministry & Church are going well. We still busy every week. The PSSWS ministry & Church are also doing well and we see them growing spiritually. The men and woman have taken on responsibilities in the PSSWS ministry & Church. They are doing most of the preaching and teaching themselves and encouraging one another with visits and prayers, one for another. The men & women who preach and teach still need help and instruction, but we thank the Lord for their dedication and willingness to learn. We are expecting great things this year in the work here in Pakistan. We are trusting in the Lord to supply our needs and thank you for your faithful financial and prayer support that the work of God might prosper. We believe that God will direct us rightly to do what He wants to glorify Jesus name. I hope that you would make your efforts to help our small ministry as much you can through any other body or organizations. We do hope that God will open the door for us to have assistance to do it more accurately. We always lift up in our daily prayer and also know that you are in our heart, mind, and thoughts and in Christ. May God be with you and use you more in the vineyard for Christ to save soul. May God strengthen and encourage you all and keep on serving him in others. With love and much appreciation for your regular help our ministry and your commitment with me? Thank you and God bless you!

Yours Brother in Christ!

Reverend Pervaiz Khokhar
Chairman
The Preaching Society & Social Welfare Services
Mohallah Rasool Pura Street No 7
Jhumra City 37700
Faisalabad,
PAKISTAN
Telephone: +92-41-8527541
Cell phone: +92-300-7914561
E.Mail:pssws@yahoo.com
E.Mail:pervaiz_khokhar@hotmail.com

By Reverend Pervaiz Khokhar on Feb 22, 2009

Jesus healed me of Stage 3 (Adenoma Carcinoma) rectal cancer in Feb 2008 and I have ALL the medical evidence to prove it. Evidence like x-rays, MRI scans results blood tests results, etc, etc.

By John Iurincich on Nov 8, 2009

People are getting upset and suspicious because God is doing things outside of their own frame of reference with the most unlikely candidates. How silly. But then throughout Church history it has never been any other way.

By Bob on Nov 27, 2009