Phillip,

I have been most encouraged by your clear dividing line between humanistic philosophies, “man’s thinking”, and “God’s thinking” as revealed in the Holy Scripture, personified in Jesus Christ and quickened to us by the Holy Spirit. This has helped me immensely to separate the “wheat” from the “tares” in my own mind and thought processes as God rebuilds and cleanses my own heart.

It’s clear to me that much of my own personal struggles have come from pastors, bible teachers, so-called “christian” books that have admired and promoted the ways of the world as successful and desirable, and thus mix these thoughts with the pure, holy and most precious Word of God.

The effect of your clear teaching is that the Bible has become much more precious to me….while the thinking of this world has become much more worthless in my eyes. Funny how, that as you see the truth, you agree with the word that these lies and tares are “good for nothing”…worthless…a waste of time.

Lord, forgive us for treating the tares as valuable and help us cling to the pure gold of your Word.

By Mark Eather on Oct 17, 2008

Thank you for the information you provide here Paul. In the context of your comments you may be interested in the following information about a “community service” being offered at a local community church which proudly boasts that they are NOT promoting biblical christianity.

The following is a snippet from the website of such an absurd “ministry” from a church which I strongly believe is falsely promoting itself as christian.

“It is not a church service, but many people
sense God’s presence when they come for
ministry. We are non-denominational and are not
trying to teach, change anybody’s doctrines, enlist them in any church or movement, or promote any unusual, controversial doctrines. We just share the love of Jesus Christ.

How can they share the love of Jesus Christ without sharing the truth of who the REAL Jesus Christ is as revealed to us in the Bible?

I strongly believe local church ministries should be simple, but strongly promoting biblical doctrines, teachings and values.
Their highest motivation should be to lead people to salvation through faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

The Bible teaches that spiritual gifts follow the preaching of the Word of God as a means of confirming that Word.

False ministries, such as this one, are man-centred with “magical” manifestations being represented as means of confirming the “mystical status” of the person deemed responsible for such manifestations in the spiritual realm. This is all ‘new age’ rather than being in any way christian.

May I recommend “The Biblical Testing of Teachings and Manifestations” by Aeron Morgan regarding issues such as these.

This church I refer to above, is pastored, incidentally, by the same person who proudly informed me that he was “NOT INTERESTED IN BIBLE DOCTRINE OR TEACHING - I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN MY ANOINTING” is promoting some experience based on touchy feely sentiments about SOMEBODY named Jesus.

The New Testament, I hasten to add, is full of warnings about false christs being everywhere in the last days and that God Himself will send delusion to those who do not love the Truth.

The Jesus of the Bible refers to Himself as The Way, The Truth and The Light and only He is able to present us to the Father - He is certainly NOT just any old person calling himself Jesus Christ.

When we depart from Bible teaching to follow the “teachings of anointed men” (ultimately false christs) rather than Godly ambassadors of the Biblical Jesus, we set ourselves up for plummeting spiritual standards and a proliferation of ‘new age’ religious spirits among the scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive.

The bible teaches in 2 Timothy 3:16 that “ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness.”
2 Timothy 2:15, states “STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, A WORKMAN THAT NEEDETH NOT BE ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH” (KJV).
1 Thessalonians 5:21 states “Prove (JUDGE) ALL things: hold fast to that which is good.”

We must stand firm on the Word of God alone at this very significant point in church and world history, if we are to retain the very salvation which the Biblical Jesus Christ has won for us at Calvary.

By Wayne Capell on Oct 18, 2008

The term “Godly ambassadors of the Biblical Jesus” used in my comment above simply refers to those who faithfully preach and teach the Word of God.

These people CARE about Bible doctrine and do NOT in any way present themselves as having special “anointings” which somehow supersedes dependency on the Word of God as the Sole authority on matters of faith and morals.

By Wayne Capell on Oct 18, 2008

In Christianity, the truth of the Torah is suppressed and hidden, either deliberately (by satan’s messengers in the ‘church’) or out of ignorance. But thank and praise Yah, that He and only He is restoring all things!

At the Messianic fellowship I was part of for over 8 years, YHWH taught me a lot. I was also blessed at that time by teachers like Jacob Prasch (Moriel), Arnold Fruchtenbaum (Ariel) and John Young (Sulam Ya’aqov Messianic Fellowship). My faith in Yeshua grew and I learned about how important that the true Shabbat, the Feasts of YHWH and the rest of the Torah were also for ‘Christians’, not just the Jews.

Having spent many years desiring Him, like Jacob, I wrestle with God on personal issues as we all do, yet He has remained faithful and continued to lead me.

About a year ago, my faith went to another level, when I discovered that the ‘church’ (that is, the true, remnant ‘church’) on earth are the descendants of the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who, and by the blood of Yeshua, are grafted into the House of Jacob.

The House of Jacob was split into Israel and Judah. As you may know the history of these two of God’s people, Israel was exiled and later assimilated as ‘gentiles’ into the world. Yeshua said he came only for these “lost sheep of the House of Israel”, and he spoke to the Jews (Judah who was back in the Land) about ‘another flock’ (referring to Israel or what Christians call ‘gentiles’) that He had.

As it says in the article above, God’s plan has always been for His people, the WHOLE House of Israel/Jacob to be obedient to His commands, but to also TRUST him with faith from the heart, such as Abraham who was credited as being righteous because of his simple faith in Yahweh.

As Eliyahu (Elijah) was to come before the Messiah, and who did in John the Baptist, we are told again the the spirit of Eliyahu will come before Messiah returns to restore all things! The ‘all things’ being the lost truths of the Torah and B’rit Chadasha (New Testament), that mother Rome had sabotaged and kidnapped 1700 years ago.

The original covenant, renewed (Jer. 31) and re-established by Yeshua, in His blood shed at Golgotha, was kept by his talmidim (disciples) and later the believers who came to accept that Yeshua was indeed the promised One of Isaiah 53 - the suffering servant!

Sadly, when the goyim (gentiles/heathens) came to the faith, as it spread out and away from Jerusalem, they also brought in their baggage of pagan worship. This evolved into what we call the Roman Catholic church. This leaven doesn’t just lie there, but her offspring, (thanks to so called church ‘fathers’ like Luther) being the protestant and later the evangelicals, never full disconnected from Rome’s poisonous and heretical doctrines and ideologies which are alive and well today.

Today, Christendom has between 3000 to 5000 denominations, because of the great apostasy which Rabbi Sha’ul (Paul) warned about in his letters. This great apostasy isn’t just about looney televangelists, or ecumenism with Rome, but something even closer to home.

Even so-called ’sound’ churches and ministries who stand for supposed ‘truth’, still stand in great error, as they remain clothed in replacementism. We often hear them sprouting on about how ‘Jesus’ did away with the ‘law’ or complete misunderstandings of the Hebraic texts of the scriptures.

By Lee Mullen on Oct 19, 2008

Well said Paul.

That is more than enough to dispense with that particular diversion.

By Wayne Capell on Oct 20, 2008

Paul, I wonder if you could elaborate on your comment, “Indeed the church that Jesus is building has superceded the national Israel in God’s grand plan of all the ages of time?”

This sounds like ‘replacement theology’, but it may not be what you had in mind.

By Kerry Stevenson on Oct 22, 2008

Something to consider re: the ‘third arm of Christianity’ comments. It seems to me that there has only ever been one arm or stream of true faith. Way back there was Cain and Abel. Both were spiritually inclined but only Abel was pleasing to the Almighty. Then of course there was Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the prophets, etc. Interestingly, the tower of Babel was man’s attempt at religion, in rebellion against God, to build a monument to men, settle down, and make a name for themselves. These two streams have continued through history till today. God has continually called men out of dead religion to true faith. Sadly those who are called out, after a generation or so, settle down, build monuments, and seek to make names for themselves. Dead religiosity, I believe, can be often recognized by ‘the three Ts’ : temples, tithes and titles.

Glenn

By Glenn on Oct 23, 2008

I feel I must be careful here as the Remnant philosophy can easily open up a wide range of issues and points of view, BUT responding to Paul’s comments above [viz.”Christ’s followers need to band together to learn the word of God, to encourage and support one another, and to give glory to our risen and enthroned Lord Jesus”] I totally agree!
I am a part of a very small remnant group of believers and, if this can encourage any of you, being small and in trusting each other, we can receive from God - in the Name of Jesus - and by His Spirit - in ways that are virtually impossible in the larger group context. Last Friday for example, we had a strong anointing (not like Todd or Benny’s!) and God’s spirit flowed. Words of knowledge, a blessing from the Word of God, intercessory prayer, a spiritual song (Psalm 23) no music, and a wonderful sense, and I mean in intensity, of the presence of our Blessed Lord. In fact a weakness in the knees and a lightness in our spirits. This I believe can only happen in a small, loving, like-minded group. As any group progresses beyond such smallness (we are beginning to think) a leavening can take place. It might not, though more likely it will. We then take what we have received to others, as the Lord desires. Rather like the original New Testament church. What do you think?

By Abraham on Oct 27, 2008

Paul, with regard to your comment:

The Body of Christ is like this in its history. IMO there are more arms in it than the 3 mentioned above - significant ones would include Orthodox, Catholic, Reformed, Evangelical, Restoration, Holiness, Pentecostal - which all have true believers within them, as well as “tares”. There are many diverse ‘currents’ in the water of each ‘arm of the river’ also, and they themselves are not that arm - but they are a part of the river system from which they have their identity.

Please tell me how you define christianity so that this is possible?

I agree with Glenn and certainly believe that there is ONLY one type of genuine christian and that is the biblical christian. Any other type of christian can only be referred to as a pseudo or deluded christian.

The Biblical christian has a genuine salvation or “born-again” experience based on their response to the preaching and teaching of the Word of God. This is the basic starting point. They then progress in the realization that only submission to the teachings of scripture will enable them to grow spiritually and to live a life pleasing to the true God - the God of the Bible.

Despite very limited scope for some individual differences scriptural teachings are generally obvious to the truly spiritual individual who is genuinely trying to please God.
Consequently it is impossible for a true believer to continue to be associated with an organisation overtly teaching unbiblical and even anti-biblical doctrine.

The bible teaches in 2 Timothy 3:16 that “ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness.”
2 Timothy 2:15, states “STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, A WORKMAN THAT NEEDETH NOT BE ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH” (KJV).
1 Thessalonians 5:21 states “Prove (JUDGE) ALL things: hold fast to that which is good.”
This literally means to JUDGE ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF GOD.
The church would be much healthier, spiritually, if such scriptural standards were applied consistently.
The bible teaches that we will give an account of ourselves on the Judgement Day.
There will be no one to speak for us, we will face God alone and be responsible for ourselves.
The responsibility to judge ALL things is therefore placed on ALL truly born again, bible believing Christians who are empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so. This is the sole means by which we are able to live a life pleasing to God rather than a futile life in opposition to the will of God, however successful it may appear to be in a worldly sense.
Consistent with bible prophecy about “false christs” in the last days we now have “anointed ones” running around claiming that bible believing Christians will be hurt by God if they dare to question them. They also claim to have special revelation which is not to be subjected to the testing of scripture in spite of or perhaps because of the teaching of scripture to the contrary confirming they are wrong or false.

Paul,

the following examples make it impossible for me to accept much of the basic premise of your comment that true believers are involved in all manner of religious organisations merely because they choose to refer to themselves as christian.

Pope Boniface VIII declared in his “Unam Sanctum Ecclesiam” of 1302 that:
“it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
In 1870 Pope Pius IX proclaimed “Papal Infallibility” in all matters of faith and morals.
This is the basis of multitudes of unscriptural and anti-scriptural teachings and practices which biblical Christians find abhorrent.
The Roman Catholic Church NEVER changes. They say that about themselves.
This is ignored by people who find that biblical teaching prevents them from engaging in the popular ecumenical and religious activities of the day.
When compared with the clear teaching of scripture such ecumenical activity is Biblical Apostasy. The bible cannot be distorted to support both the claims of Jesus Christ and the claims of popery.
This most basic affront to biblical Christianity, the Roman Catholic teaching of “Unam Sanctum Ecclesiam” directly contradicts the words of Jesus in John 14:6:
“I AM the Way the Truth and the Light, NO man cometh unto the Father BUT by me.”
The National President of the AoG in Australia, Brian Houston, however, has stated,
“We pray that this papacy, LIKE THOSE BEFORE IT, is marked by a commitment to seeing the Christian message continue to go forward and people changed by the power and truth of the gospel.”
When has the Roman Catholic church ever proclaimed the Christian message as clearly defined by Bible teachings?
Paul says in Galatians 1 verse 8 …..”though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”
I have heard and read of numerous examples of the AoG Executive pontificating on the basis of their “anointing” alone without reference to the teaching of scripture at all. I have been told by a senior AoG Pastor that he knew better than the Bible because of his experiences in the ministry when I questioned why he was ignoring the clear teaching of scripture in his teaching and practice.
Paul states in Galatians 1 verses 10, 11 and 12 …..”do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
Joel Osteen, pastor of the largest charismatic church in the USA believes Mormons are fellow Christians:
Osteen states that “Mitt Romney, (a mormon) has said that he believes in Christ as his saviour and that is what I believe”. Osteen admitted that he does not know much about Mormonism but was prepared to endorse Mormonism in an interview on Fox News before Christmas. When asked if a Mormon was a true Christian Osteen said, “in my mind they are. I am not one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are. Mitt Romney seems like a man of character and integrity to me. When he says that Christ is his saviour that is a common bond and although I don’t agree with everything I just try to let God be the judge.”
The Mormon Jesus is clearly a false Jesus.
Bill Hybels, another mega church leader has had Moslems preach in his pulpit and has claimed that Allah is the same God as the Christians and people of other faiths serve.
Other groups influenced by “anointed ones” such as Peter Wagner are teaching about “territorial spirits.” They say that individuals do not even need to hear the Gospel at all to be saved if the territorial spirits are cast out. They therefore claim that we have “born again hindus, moslems and any other bizarre combination you can think of being saved without leaving their religious and social culture and without even hearing the Word of God at all.”
Peter Wagner and his dangerous anti-reformation doctrines are another serious menace to biblical christianity. The Bible clearly warns of the dangers of false teaching and practices which are becoming increasingly obvious in church circles around the world.
We should ALWAYS remember also that it was “the anointed” religious leaders of HIS day who had Jesus Christ crucified. The political leader “could find no fault with Him” but the religious leaders found Him to be a threat to them and their high office and demanded His execution at any cost.
The Bible repeatedly warns us about the proliferation of false Christs in the last days. Paul often warns about those who would pervert the Gospel of Christ. In 2 Thessalonians 2 verses 11 and 12 Paul states ….”for this cause God shall send strong DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
Should we “Prove (JUDGE) ALL things: hold fast to that which is good” in accordance with the scriptures or should we follow the Gnostic teachings of the “anointed ones?”
The “horror” stories go on and on and on. I could provide many more examples for you but I have demonstrated the absolute necessity for all Bible believing, born again Christians to faithfully JUDGE ALL things by the Word of God and to hold fast only to that which is good SCRIPTURALLY and to reject emphatically ALL that is bad, false or contrary to the revealed Word of God. This means coming out from among the apostate as well as those groups that were false from the outset.
The bible clearly teaches that our eternal destiny depends on our willingness and ability to remain faithful to the Word of God and that God Himself will send delusion to those who “love not the truth.” This delusion can only be avoided by faithful commitment to the Word of God and the determined rejection of all that is false.
In 2 Thessalonians 2 verse 15 Paul advises the brethren in Christ to ….”stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our epistle.”
In spite of the warnings that even the very elect will be deceived in these last days, my wife and I intend, by the grace of God, to remain faithful to Biblical Christianity for as long as possible.
The Apostle Paul gave the instruction in Galatians 1 verse 9 …..”if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received let him be accursed.” This is the biblical way to deal with these people who are perverting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am unable to accept your statement about true believers remaining within false and apostate organisations and I would urge you to reevaluate what christianity actually is and what aspects of it are actually non-negotiable.

By Wayne Capell on Oct 31, 2008

Thank you Paul.

I do appreciate your willingness to share your position and your openness regarding what you do believe. The Bible is truly ALL that genuine believers and followers of the one TRUE GOD, the GOD of the Bible, have to rely on.

I have continually hammered these points because people who have grown up within organisations referring to themselves as ‘christian’ and which are now obviously apostate, and therefore [by biblical teaching standards] leading people to HELL, are referring to such absurdities as “born again” Roman Catholics remaining within the Roman Catholic organisation.

I have also referred to many other such instances regarding other false religions and practices. This is primarily because this DELUSION will take people, who seem to think they are “saved,” simply because of conformity to the teachings of the “anointed” ones within their organisation to hell.

When people come into the Light of the Truth of the Word of God the very first thing they want to do is to flee from ALL that is false or contrary to the Word and to hold fast to ALL that is true.

Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you - 2nd Corinthians 6: 17 (NKJV).

Ultimately the biblical mandate is clear – ‘Come out from among them’ – the present danger is stated, – ‘Do not touch what is unclean’ – the method of escape is explained – ‘And be separate’ – and the end result is promised –’I (the Lord) will receive you’.

It is as absurd to suggest that leaders within unscriptural and anti-biblical organisations can lead people to a saving faith in the God of the Bible as it is to suggest that people may remain in any other sin or carnal preoccupation once they choose to call themselves “christian.”

By Wayne Capell on Oct 31, 2008

PS.

I strongly believe that it is reasonable to assume that one must know the GOD of the BIBLE i.e. the Biblical Jesus in order to be able to lead someone to a saving faith in the Biblical Jesus.

How anyone can presume to lead someone to a saving faith in Christ when they work for an organisation which denies the authority of the scriptures at all and subordinates it to the fanciful teachings of men is absolutely astonishing.

Anyone who knows the Jesus of the Bible will NEVER want to work for such an organisation. People lead to a religious experience by such a person really need to reevaluate that experience in accordance with the clear teachings of the BIBLE as a matter of extreme urgency as their eternal destiny is dependent on their relationship with the Jesus of the Bible ALONE.

By Wayne Capell on Oct 31, 2008

NO Paul - I am a former ordained AoG minister. My colleagues used a ploy to get rid of me. I would have been forced to reapply which I was disinclined to do. They actually refused to enter into discussions with me over the matter, This was when Andrew Evans was the General Superintendent.

Every blessing.

By philip on Nov 1, 2008

Paul,

THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS WHICH JUSTIFY BIBLICAL APOSTASY OR THE FALSEHOOD OF NON BIBLICAL RELIGIONS - FALSEHOOD WILL ALWAYS BE FALSEHOOD AND THE BASIS FOR REJECTION BY THE GOD OF THE BIBLE ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY. FALSE RELIGION WILL BE NO MORE EFFECTIVE THAN NO RELIGION AT ALL WHEN WE FACE GOD ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY.

Your MISREPRESENTATION of the FACTS clearly presented to us in the SCRIPTURES are extremely disappointing and, I am deeply saddened to say, deny the reality of what is actually going on within what some commentators refer to as christendom (THE WORLDLY OR FALSE CHURCH OF THE END TIMES) because of its overt denial of the most basic tenets of biblical christianity. I refer you once again to the comments by Andrew Evans in the opening comments to this blog.

To answer your question I will restate what is obvious to ALL truly born again bible believing christians:
The True Christian accepts salvation by the Grace of God alone, Justification by Faith in the (biblical) Jesus Christ alone, Sola Scriptura or the Scriptures as the Sole authority on matters of faith and morals.

Simply stated:

IF YOU AND YOUR CHRISTIANITY ARE NOT BIBLICAL YOU ARE NOT SAVED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION.

There is NO room in true christianity for Popery, Papal Infallibility, “Anointed Ones” of any kind, the Gnostic teachings of the “Anointed Ones” or any of the other NONSENSE which you seem prepared to embrace in the interests of ecumenical unity and as a crutch to underpin the emotional instability arising from flatly refusing to accept the clear teaching of scripture as the ONLY TRUTH OF THE ONLY TRUE GOD. BAALISM IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE SUBSTITUTE FOR TRUE CHRISTIANITY.

This ecumenical unity that you are so desperate to defend and support is clearly APOSTASY as represented by the following FACTS. These are historical facts recorded in history for all time. There is NOT ONE generalisation amongst them. The evidence is clear and irrefutable for ALL who wish to believe in the TRUTH.

Pope Boniface VIII declared in his “Unam Sanctum Ecclesiam” of 1302 that:
“it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
In 1870 Pope Pius IX proclaimed “Papal Infallibility” in all matters of faith and morals.

This is the basis of multitudes of unscriptural and anti-scriptural teachings and practices which biblical Christians find abhorrent and completely unacceptable.

There are multitudes of other false teachings which are also totally unacceptable to biblical christians and to the God of the bible alike but these are sufficient to prove the point beyond reasonable doubt.

This is historical evidence and more than enough to prove the point beyond reasonable doubt as required in a court of law.

The Roman Catholic Church NEVER changes.
They proudly declare that about themselves.
This is ignored by people who find that biblical teaching prevents them from engaging in the popular ecumenical and religious activities of the day.

When compared with the clear teaching of scripture such ecumenical activity is Biblical Apostasy.

The bible cannot be distorted to support both the claims of Jesus Christ and the counter claims of popery.

This most basic affront to biblical Christianity, the Roman Catholic teaching of “Unam Sanctum Ecclesiam” directly contradicts the words of Jesus in
John 14:6:
“I AM the Way the Truth and the Light,
NO man cometh unto the Father BUT by me.”

The National President of the AoG in Australia, Brian Houston, however, has stated,
“We pray that this papacy, LIKE THOSE BEFORE IT, is marked by a commitment to seeing the Christian message continue to go forward and people changed by the power and truth of the gospel.”

When has the Roman Catholic church ever proclaimed the True Christian message as clearly defined by Bible teachings?

Paul says in Galatians 1 verse 8 …..”though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

This is the biblical way of dealing with these people who would pervert the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I have heard and read of numerous examples of the AoG Executive pontificating on the basis of their “anointing” alone without reference to the teaching of scripture at all.

I have been told by a senior AoG Pastor that he knew better than the Bible because of his experiences in the ministry when I questioned why he was ignoring the clear teaching of scripture in his teaching and practice.

He also said that he could not use the bible in his pastoral ministry as it was “divisive.”

Paul states in Galatians 1 verses 10, 11 and 12 …..”do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

THESE ARE FACTS, HISTORICAL FACTS FOR WHICH INDIVIDUALS WILL BE CALLED TO ACCOUNT ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY.

These facts CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE THE APOSTATE CONDITION OF ORGANISATIONS WHICH (SADLY AND INDEED CATASTROPHICALLY if you should choose to persist) YOU SEEM DESPERATE TO SUPPORT AT ANY COST.

I urge you to reevalute your position in light of the clear teaching of scripture as only the BIBLICAL JESUS CHRIST IS ABLE TO SAVE US ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY. He will NOT accept compromise of any kind.

Christian regards

By Wayne Capell on Nov 2, 2008

Paul,

I do indeed hope that I have misunderstood your comments and I will be very pleased to apologise most sincerely if my comments have been unnecessary in any way. I sincerely hope that they are. However I am unable to see what you are talking about. The comments of yours that I refer to are copied below. You state that you are referring to facts based on obviously absurd scenarios (from a biblical perspective that is) and you refer to “generalisations” which are, in fact, quite obviously statements of observable and genuine facts. I have answered your question about the absolute essentials for TRUE CHRISTIANITY and quite clearly we must refrain from association with apostate and false religious bodies in the manner suggested by Philip Powell.

I am sure you were talking about people being lead to a saving faith in Jesus Christ by a Roman Catholic priest in a confessional and other such absurdities and religious nonsense.

The following is also a copy of what appears to be an absurd comment by you which requires immediate reevaluation from a Biblical perspective.

“You’ve posted the anti-Roman Catholic information in the 31/10 comment above, quite a few times before on CWM blogs in the past 6 or 7 months. [It seems to be ‘a wheelbarrow’ you are pushing, yet it is relevant to this blog’s theme.]” I HAVE ANSWERED THIS COMMENT FULLY BY REFERRING TO THE WAY THIS DELUSION IS LEADING MANY PEOPLE TO HELL WHO MIGHT OTHERWISE THINK THEY WERE SAVED.

“I have spoken first-hand with a woman who, in a ‘confessional box’ in a Catholic church, was halted by the priest who had heard her confessions many times and who proceeded to lead her to repentance and saving faith in Christ’s once-and-for-all atoning death. These events occurred over 20 years ago & the fruit remains.”

FROM A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE THIS IS THEOLOGICALLY ABSURD AS CLEARLY SHOWN IN MY REPLY TO YOU. I MAKE NO APOLOGY FOR MY STAND FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS IF THIS COMMENT IS WHAT YOU ACTUALLY MEAN.

Please forgive me if that is NOT the case and you somehow do NOT mean what you seem to be saying. Rereading your comments however really only confirms to me the URGENT need for you to re-assess your position in the light of the clear teaching of scripture.

Unless you are able to show me how your meaning was different to the obvious reading of your comment (as copied below) I must state that you are in fact the mistaken one. If you mean what you actually said in your comments than I must urge you to actually READ what I have said, take it to heart, and turn to the GOD of the BIBLE as quickly as possible. ONLY THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE WILL BE ABLE TO SAVE US ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY NOT THE FANCIFUL JESUS OF THE FALSE CHRISTS cropping up every where.

“My comments have not been a justification or an apologia for any denomination - they are observations of facts. Generalisations that you are publishing here do not allow for the exceptions & therefore do not portray the respective situations fairly.
Remember, Philip Powell of CWM has stated they remain in the Pentecostal arm of biblical Christianity - using the river metaphor, I therefore would picture this valuable ministry as a needful current within the Pentecostal arm. [Philip identifies himself as an ordained A/G minister - how do you feel about that?]
It is not clear how you think we should “come out from among them” so could you explain? ”
PLEASE REFER TO THE COMMENTS BY PHILIP POWELL FOR YOUR ANSWER TO THIS COMMENT.

“Must we all join or form yet another ‘movement’? And would you clarify what you consider are the absolute essentials for a ‘true Christian’?” CLEARLY WE MUST HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FALSE CULTS _ FALSE RELIGION AND THE APOSTATE. I have said this to you and I will not change from this position as it is a principled stand for righteousness.

I DO SINCERELY HOPE THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO SHOW ME THAT I HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD YOU. OTHERWISE YOU NEED TO TAKE HEED OF THE SCRIPTURAL WARNINGS AS A MATTER OF EXTREME URGENCY.

By Wayne Capell on Nov 2, 2008

I wonder if we have a case here of dying by the letter, rather than living by the Spirit?

In my experience, if you remain true to the Scriptures you will not only have to come out, you will be polarised and pushed out.

I, too, struggle with the concept of remaining part of a dead religious system that so obviously opposes the truth. How can we, who are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

As changes have happened over the years I have found that true in my own fellowship also. It is difficult to stay where you don’t appear wanted.

By Kerry Stevenson on Nov 2, 2008

“The Body of Christ is like this in its history. IMO there are more arms in it than the 3 mentioned above - significant ones would include Orthodox, Catholic, Reformed, Evangelical, Restoration, Holiness, Pentecostal - which all have true believers within them, as well as “tares”. There are many diverse ‘currents’ in the water of each ‘arm of the river’ also, and they themselves are not that arm - but they are a part of the river system from which they have their identity. “
With regards to this comment on October 29 Paul, I would appreciate you explaining to me what you mean by certain ‘denominations’ being part of “the Body of Christ” in history. I have spent the last few years studying Primary School teaching at a Catholic university. In this course I have had to undertake Catholic theology subjects, and have been given a glimpse on some of their ‘basic’ teachings.

I am a born-again, bible-believing Christian who believes without a doubt that all scripture is God-breathed.

Your comment here “significant ones would include Orthodox, Catholic, Reformed, Evangelical, Restoration, Holiness, Pentecostal - which all have true believers within them, as well as “tares”” does not make sense to me as some of these ‘arms of Christianity’ are NOT arms of Christianity but false religions masquerading as the Body of Christ. Nothing in Catholic doctrine aligns with what the Bible says about salvation, biblical history and true Christianity.

I can understand what you are saying about the river and how it flows with some religions ending up away from the river and all but to me those religions that do not teach biblical Christianity never started in the river of the Body of Christ to begin with. They’re a completely different river with an essence of Christianity on top. I agree with Philip about the Catholic Church in this respect: “I do not see Roman Catholicism as featuring in any one of the three arms except by way of its inevitable corrupting influence. It is NOT an arm of true Christianity but rather a “tare” or a hybrid “mustard” tree or “leaven” in the biblical parabolic teaching.”

While I agree with your comment about some individual fellowships being completely cut off from the river of life, i.e. Pentecostal-charismatic groups etc., I fail to see how the Catholic groups could have been cut off from the river of life when they were never part of it in the first place. They did not start as an ‘arm of Christianity,’ they started as the ‘particular’ religion for the Roman Emperor Constantine 1.

I have no doubt that people in these false religions can be saved but I believe that it is important for them to come out from those religions to protect their salvation and follow the Jesus of the bible.

By Amanda, an even smaller potato on Nov 2, 2008

Paul,

Regarding the false cult of Roman Catholicism, may I refer you to the following:

Invincible Gospel and the Modern Evangelical Lie
Our Friend Richard Bennett of Berean Beacon has produced another excellent DVD, which is free and can be viewed on his web-site.
The Invincible Gospel and the Modern Evangelical Lie.
Richard is a former Roman Catholic priest, who had great difficulty listening to some Evangelists giving a salvation message. He addresses this topic in the above DVD. While he has tried graciously in this presentation to present the Gospel as God’s gift and not man’s doing the response has not been great.
“On the contrary I think things are becoming worse. In fact, the way that ‘the gospel’ is often presented is that it looks as if man is sovereign and not God!” – Richard Bennett
Please Click Here (or copy paste URL into your browser):
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/

He also provides excellent teaching on the errors of this false cult as compared to the simple truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as presented to us in GOD’S WORD the Bible as a part of this web site.

After accessing the web site referred to above please click on the icon entitled “What Every Catholic Should Know” for a summary of Roman Catholic teaching compared with the teaching of scripture.

The divergence from the teaching of scripture is the reason why the pseudo-christian Roman Catholic church is one of the more dangerous false cults.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is extremely simple. It is this simplicity which is being distorted and perverted by the false teachers and false prophets cropping up everywhere.

The simplicity of the Gospel means that biblical christians have no difficulty whatsoever in taking God at His Word and believing His Word literally.

Consequently the most basic requirement of person calling him/herself a christian is the willingness to accept salvation by the Grace of God ALONE through the justification provided through the ONE act of redemption by Jesus Christ ALONE and the total reliance on the SCRIPTURES as the SOLE RULE OF FAITH AND MORALS.

This is BASIC christianity - to be any more prescriptive than this is to move towards popery which I strongly believe to be the unpardonable sin because it usurps the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the prospective believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

As a bible believing christian my family and I have NO difficulty in taking the Word of God literally. We therefore believe that COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM means literally COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM.

When I have been exposed to apostate Pastors and churches I have taken God at HIS Word and left that church and sought a church where the Word of God is preached faithfully. In accordance with Biblical warnings about the proliferation of apostasy and false christs in the last days I am finding this increasingly difficult to achieve. I fully expect to eventually have to avoid organised churches all together and to resort to the ministry of the Word to family and bible believing friends within private homes.

The following passages of scripture MUST also be taken literally if we are to live a life pleasing to the God of the Bible:

The bible teaches in 2 Timothy 3:16 that “ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness.”

2 Timothy 2:15, states “STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, A WORKMAN THAT NEEDETH NOT BE ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH” (KJV).
1 Thessalonians 5:21 states “Prove (JUDGE) ALL things: hold fast to that which is good.”

This literally means to JUDGE ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF GOD

This is why I state that:

IF YOU AND YOUR CHRISTIANITY ARE NOT BIBLICAL YOU ARE NOT SAVED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION.

I am NOT addressing this statement at you personally, Paul, but as a warning to all who believe they are saved. The only reason that anyone would be upset by such a comment is if they know they are perverting the SIMPLE gospel of Jesus Christ or accepting a distorted or perverted substitute and falsely calling it christianity.

The TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD HAS SET US FREE
The HOLY SPIRIT HAS EMPOWERED US TO APPLY THAT FREEDOM.

By Amanda, an even smaller potato on Nov 3, 2008

Thank you Amanda for your two postings. It’s good to have a woman’s “touch” as we men sometimes forget that the Bible also advises that “a soft answer turns away wrath” (Proverbs 15:1). We can all too often lose sight of the practical and personal teaching of the Bible in the light of what we think is the big picture. Grievous words stir up anger. Such discussions can end up generating more heat than light if we are not careful.

It seems to me that there are two major matters in the discussion that has proceeded and I suspect that both Paul and Wayne basically agree not only in what I am about to say but also in the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Words are lame vehicles of expression and sometime what a person intends to get across is lost in the words they choose. It’s happened to me many times.

1) Salvation is of the Lord and is revealed through His Word. Peter tells us that God’s Word is the regenerating seed that produces the new birth (1 Peter 1:23). If this has happened within an individual, no matter what his association at the time of the event, then that person is “born again” and he has eternal life. Let us not forget that the Lord spoke to and regenerated Martin Luther not after he left the Roman Catholic Church but while he was still in it. In fact he never fully left it, which was a mistake, even though God used him in reformation.

2) When a man or woman is truly born again the seed of the life of Christ will cry out for nourishment and growth. It is therefore impossible for such a person to remain in a totally deceived and decadent organisation no matter whether it be the dead formalistic heresy of Roman Catholicism or the outrageous and equally heretical sensational mysticism of the Assemblies of God, for want of a better comparison. Both associations can be equally damning.

Now, where does that put us all? It is so easy to see the wrong of others and fail to see the wrong of our own links. The call, “Come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing” (2 Co 6:17) was not given explicitly to Roman Catholics. It’s application is MUCH wider than that. We need to think very deeply about the wider picture — all of us.

God bless you all.

” … we do not lose heart. But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the Word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them” - 2 Co 4:1-4.

By philip on Nov 3, 2008

Excuse me being facetious here — I hope you can see the humor.

There seems to be something wrong with this body, shouldn’t it only have two arms? We’re getting that many arms we’re beginning to look like an Egyptian goddess — and we’ll definitely have to come out of that.

I can tell that you are studious thinkers here, and love the word of God. Some come from a different perspective to others. Actually Amanda reminded me of a Lutheran friend I used to have who couldn’t see why the need to ‘make a commitment’. You just either were, or you weren’t.

Predictably, I am not such a thinker, and I often see funny pictures when listening to your debates. The thing I love is the high regard for the word of God, which most here appear to have.

I don’t think Catholics were singled out [when I first started reading I thought it was aimed at the A-G], but exemplified. Philip has made that quite clear.

2 Corinthians 6 tells us to guard ourselves in 5 specific areas:

1. Fellowship
2. Communion
3. Agreement
4. Participation
5. Companionship

Every single one of these has to do with our relationship with others — and the importance we place on such areas of fellowship.

Since our fellowship is largely dependent on the structures of the church [be they congregational, denominational, or home fellowships] we need to be aware of their attitude to those things mentioned here. If there is something definitely amiss we need to reconsider our participation at any level.

Of course these things are not exclusive to the church.

By Kerry Stevenson on Nov 3, 2008

Amazing isn’t it how three “arms” of Christianity (Christendom) can turn into “rivers” that break off into all sorts of images!! Thanks Kerry for your humour and thanks Paul for bringing us back on course by directing us to what you actually did write. It’s not always good for the ego, but nonetheless very good as character building, to remind us all of our actual words which will ultimately condemn or justify us according to our Lord’s pronouncement - “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” - Mt 12:37.
To stick with the “river” analogy [which was certainly NOT in my mind when I referred to the three arms of Christianity, though I must confess neither was the human body in view — frankly I’m not sure what the analogy was]:
There is a river. Ezekiel saw it flowing from an altar () while John saw it flowing from a throne (). IMO this represents the EARTHLY (human) and the HEAVENLY (divine) aspects. The river of life always starts from an altar — the place of Sacrifice. Supremely this represents Calvary, but practically as far as we humans are concerned it signifies our own commitment and action - “I beseech you … PRESENT your bodies a living sacrifice …” (Romans 12:1). From a divine perspective it represents the SOVEREIGNTY of God. It flows from His throne and at HIS discretion and direction.
“There is a river that flows from God above
Come to that river …”
Many streams (arms) have been presented as being part of it, BUT it remains inviolate. When you are part of it you know it and there’s nothing like it - Praise the Lord.
What’s done cannot be undone. All is beneficial and all things [for those who are called and who love God supremely] will and MUST work together for GOOD - Romans 8: 28.

By philip on Nov 3, 2008

Paul,

I have absolutely NO idea what you are so upset about. Your comment, as copied below, to Amanda is bizarre when taken in the context of your comments and my replies.

“I have not commented at all about my thoughts on ecumenism … yet Wayne has tried to guess them,and on that wonky foundation has judged me and assigned me to hell.”

This is another classic misrepresentation.

I have been offended with what I strongly believe to be “righteous indignation” at your BIZARRE suggestion that a person can be led to salvation by a leader within a false cult - in this case the false cult is the Roman Catholic church. Has this woman subsequently left this false cult to seek proper spiritual nourishment as Philip refers to or are you another one of those who suggests that it does not matter what one believes so long as they refer to themselves as christian and talk about some “experience.”

I have scrutinized your comments as closely and fairly as possible and offered to apologise as sincerely as I possibly can if you are able to show me where I have misunderstood you. This offer remains and I would love to be able to offer you a whole hearted apology if you are able to demonstrate that I have misunderstood you.

You, however, have chosen to launch into a misguided personal attack.

Personal attacks generally indicate persistent scriptural ignorance and spiritual naivete and I sincerely hope that neither of these apply to you.

If, however, you actually mean what you say in your comment below you are on seriously shaky ground:

“I have spoken first-hand with a woman who, in a ‘confessional box’ in a Catholic church, was halted by the priest who had heard her confessions many times and who proceeded to lead her to repentance and saving faith in Christ’s once-and-for-all atoning death. These events occurred over 20 years ago & the fruit remains.”

I wholeheartedly endorse the comments by Amanda, above. All of the answers to the questions you have demanded I provide for you are contained therein.

What else can you possibly require of me?

By Amanda, an even smaller potato on Nov 4, 2008

I am very sorry to all readers. Amanda is my daughter, and wrote the first comment because she loves the God of the Bible and is a committed Bible believing christian. She is aware that the Roman Catholic Church is a false cult and that the AoG and pentecostalism generally [and I suppose most, if not all, of protestantism as well for that matter] is largely apostate. She also has had to leave the AoG church she grew up in due to wholesale apostasy.
Between us we forgot to change the contributor’s name applied to these comments. Please accept my apology for this. The last two comments attributed to Amanda were actually written by me. The first one in response to the comments and demands by Paul for answers to comments that seemed to me to be completely self explanatory.
This has been explained in the reply itself and the second in response to his repeated attacks on me without saying exactly what it is that has brought on these outbursts. As stated previously I stand ready and willing to apologise if Paul is able to show me where I have misunderstood him.
I also confirm that if I have understood him correctly, however, then my position is indeed a “principled stand for righteousness” consistent with the following scriptures:
Paul states in Galatians 1 verses 10, 11 and 12 …..”do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
In 2 Thessalonians 2 verse 15 Paul advises the brethren in Christ to ….”stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our epistle.”
AND
The Apostle Paul gave the instruction in Galatians 1 verse 9 …..”if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received let him be accursed.”
Is there anything else that you require of me Paul?

By Wayne Capell on Nov 4, 2008

Thank you Wayne & Amanda for your excellent posts!

“From faith to faith,” for Christians do not seek their salvation in Christ together with their personal achievements. “From faith to faith,” denoting that true believers depend completely on Christ both in time and eternity.

A cesspool of error-Romanism

The third council of Ephesus (431) accepted Augustine’s teaching that infant baptism is necessary for salvation.

In the fifth century Christian clergy functioned as a priesthood.

The Lord’s supper became a theoretical sacrifice.

High value was attached to the intercession of martyrs.

Priests became mediators between God and man.

At the fifth ecumenical council held at Constantinople under Justinian in 553, the council accepted Augustine’s De Civitate Dei as theory for earth rule. Under it the secular state would gradually be replaced by the visible church empire ruled by the Bishop of Rome.

Gregory the Great (590-604) outlined the new Middle Ages theology. It included salvation by works, a purgatory and masses or offerings of Christ in sacrifice.

Formerly the Abbot of a cloister, Gregory organized and financed the first Church Army.

Though previously stated by Siricius, Bishop of Rome (384-398) and claimed by Leo II (440-461), the title “universal Bishop” became official only in 707.

The false donations of Constantine appeared in 751. The documents claimed Constantine the Great had given to the pope, absolute supremacy over all churches and secular power over the earth.

Supposed pieces of the cross, pictures, statues and articles from early centuries became accepted as spiritual treasures during the eighth century.

The seventh ecumenical council, convened by Empress Irene and held at Nicea in 787, officially approved prayers to dead saints and martyrs.

The canonization of dead saints began in 995 by John XV.

Pope Gregory VII introduced celibacy of the clergy in 1074. He also said: “The Roman church was founded by God alone; the Roman pope alone can with right be called universal; he alone may be judged by no one; the Roman Church has never erred, nor will it err in all eternity.”

The celibacy of the clergy was imposed by Pope Calixtus II in 1123.

The Second Lateran Council was called in 1139 by Pope Innocent II to plan for the destruction of all non-conformists.

The sale of indulgences began in 1190 with Pope Clement II.

Auricular confession was instituted at the fourth Lateran Council in 1215.

Transubstantiation was also declared a dogma at that time. (Mystical Transubstantiation in which the priest changes the bread & wine into Jesus’ flesh & blood, I’m not a Cannibal!)

THIRTEENTH SESSION: THE EUCHARIST

Canon 1. If any one denieth that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

In 1229, at the Council of Toulouse, Pope Gregory IX placed the Bible on the Index of Forbidden Books.

The dogma of purgatory was pronounced by Eugenious IV at the Council of Florence in 1439.

The number of the sacraments was officially limited to seven in 1439 at the Council of Florence, though earlier some had claimed the number to be about thirty.

The immaculate conception was declared a dogma by Pope Pius IX; it stated the Mary was exempt from original and actual sin. (I guess they missed Luke 1:46-47)

Is Romanism Christian?

Did you know that the Decalogue/Ten Commandments “Laws of God” have been changed, and it was the Papacy who made this change? It is this power that lies behind the commandments found in the Catechism. Those commandments are quite different from Gods’ Ten Commandments as you find them in the Bible. Please investigate it for yourself. Compare the commandments found in the Catechism with God’s Ten Commandments as you find them in the Bible, in Exodus chapter 20, verses 3-17

Here are the Roman Catholic Ten Commandments.

First Commandment

I, the LORD, am your God…You shall not have other gods besides me.

Second Commandment

You shall not take the name of the LORD, your God, in vain.

Third Commandment

Remember to keep holy the sabbath day.

Fourth Commandment

Honor your father and your mother.

Fifth Commandment

You shall not kill.

Sixth Commandment

You shall not commit adultery.

Seventh Commandment

You shall not steal.

Eighth Commandment

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Ninth Commandment

You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.

Tenth Commandment

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house.

Did you notice the difference? Here is something else to think about.

Read Romans 3:23 - 26

23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The prayer of Christ for the apostles and all believers:.

John 17

2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

WHETHER THE POPE AND HIS SECT BE CHRIST’S CHURCH OR NO

BY WILLIAM TYNDALE [1]

http://www.geocities.com/ll_twoedged_sword_ll/Reformers/tyndale2.html

By Elaine on Nov 4, 2008

Paul,

I loved the wit in your name change. I hope you do not feel that I am ‘agin you’. I know sometimes, when it seems everyone is after you, and you stand alone, it can be tough on these blogs, forums, and other discussions. I have experienced it many a time.

In response to your reply on the 22nd of October, I accepted your statement, eventhough I do not agree with your interpretation of Romans 11. I did not respond for 2 reasons.

1. I did not want to distract from this blog in any way.

2. I hoped to see what Philip, or others might have to say, as I do not consider myself a master in the Church [Christ’s, not what we’ve come to experience today].

I do not see in Romans 11 that the church superceded Israel in any way but God, to fulfil every promise he made, instituted the time of the gentiles, sometimes called the age of grace by others.

There will come a time [known through the book of the Revelation as the millenium] when “all Israel” also known as “the remnant” will be saved. This is promised time, and time again in the prophets, and a particular reference is Jeremiah’s where he tells us God says, “I will take away their heart of stone, and give them a heart of flesh”, and “I will write my law on their hearts.” God will do this because of his promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as Paul mentions in Romans 11.

I do not, however agree with the stance of Lee Mullen.

God bless.

By Kerry Stevenson on Nov 5, 2008

Paul,

Thanks for the reply. I went to your comment in “Doctrinal death”. Sorry, I was a bit lost. I am no theologian, and know very little about different theological philosophies, so I didn’t really follow you there.

I will openly admit that I do not research as you show you do on these blogs — going from one website to another — and, although I have attended Bible College, don’t really care very much for the opinions of men. My argument has always been, show me that in the Bible (and be prepared for resistance until its proven).

Last night we had a “Jack Hayford study” on the Jewish feasts, and I was inclined to think that he confused the Feast of the Firstfruits and the Feast of Weeks. My observation from Scripture was that the Feast of the Firstfruits was the beginning of the countdown to the Feast of Weeks (50 days later). One at the beginning of the harvest, and the other at the end [approximately]. Someone else had a contention over his dates, which made this all quite a confusing mess as we ended up trying to deal with 3 objections at the same time.

I think we sorted through it to everyone’s satisfaction, with most agreeing that his dates were likely as close as we could get, and coming to the conclusion that the Feast of the Firstfruits did not continue through the fifty days, but was the feast of a day.

I suppose my motto has always been, if God said it, it has to be right, so I believe it. I also believe that the Bible (and the whole Bible) is the word of God, and that every word is Holy Spirit breathed and inspired. I suppose that labels me as something, but I wouldn’t know what.

By Kerry Stevenson on Nov 5, 2008

Thank you for providing further historical evidence about the false cult of Roman Catholicism, Elaine.

Bible believing christians will have absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

The factual, historical evidence is absolutely OVERWHELMING when viewed with total impartiality and a willingness to accept the truth of the Word of God as revealed to us.

Thank you also for your comments Kerry:

I suppose my motto has always been, if God said it, it has to be right, so I believe it. I also believe that the Bible (and the whole Bible) is the word of God, and that every word is Holy Spirit breathed and inspired. I suppose that labels me as something, but I wouldn’t know what.

This is exactly where we should all be at. Judging all things by the Word of God alone is the ONLY way to avoit the DELUSION which GOD will send to those who do not love the truth to the exclusion of all popular lies.

Your comments about Israel are somewhat puzzling however. There is of course ONLY ONE way to be saved. The people of Israel, as do people of all nations, still have to accept the atoning work of Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

I would suggest that the way of thinking and believing that you describe may even make you a “bible believing christian” Kerry.

God bless you

By Wayne Capell on Nov 5, 2008

“Your comments about Israel are somewhat puzzling however. There is of course ONLY ONE way to be saved. The people of Israel, as do people of all nations, still have to accept the atoning work of Jesus Christ in order to be saved. - Wayne Capell”.

Wayne,

You are absolutely right. If I remember correctly, at least twice in the prophecies of the Bible it says, “And they will look on me whom they have pierced…”

Remember it is Christ who returns in the millenium, and they who remain will see and know that he is the Christ of God, and the fulfilment of every promise, and they will mourn, repent, and believe.

I do not see salvation without accepting the atoning work of Jesus Christ. I only believe in God’s big promises.

By Kerry Stevenson on Nov 6, 2008

Paul,

If by ‘doing theology’ you mean “study to show yourself approved” I entirely agree. The end of Hebrews 5 through the beginning of 6 tell us the things all believers should be conversant with. It seems a big ask in today’s church, but I don’t think it is impossible.

By Kerry Stevenson on Nov 8, 2008

“For not all Israelites truly belong to Israel” - Romans 9 v6.

“… but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling that law. Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone” - Rom 9 vs 31-32.

By Anonymous on Nov 23, 2008

IS ISRAEL YOUR END-TIMES IDOL ?

Jesus, to Israel: “Look, your house is left to you desolate.” (Matthew 23 v38 & Luke 13 v35.)

1 Thessalonians 2 vs 14b, 15, 16 says “… the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men, in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.”

By Anonymous on Nov 30, 2008

Although I am of the remnant and in no way a theologian, I am certainly impressed by both the Word and the Spirit portrayed in most of the postings ‘above me’. In adding a simplistic comment may I say that there is an excellent article in the C.E.T.F. Sept. 2008 edition authored by T. Austin Sparks and adapted by P.P. It speaks of the absolute requirement in the church today of the Levitical Priestly representation which is virtually missing and certainly totally ignored by the Church Emergent. There is too much text to comment on here BUT this is the vital element all but lost today and replaced by just about everything else! My real point of view I suppose is that the soi-disant remnant must take on board the dimensions of the Levite priesthood to be of any value. As such a called out person may yet stay in a congregation - never on the basis of “holier than thou” or of self-righteousness - simply to challenge and and dialogue with those who are classified as spiritual leaders. My guess is that he or she would not last too long on this mission! It’s well worth reading (though written 50 years ago) and should certainly stand out to those who are spiritually attuned.
Bearing in mind that Hebrews 12:14 states quite simply that without holiness no man shall see the Lord - it is a spiritual quality and indeed qualification to follow, and probably the hardest thing for the human heart to accomodate.

By Abraham on Dec 8, 2008

This is off topic but I would like to make a comment to “Paul, a small potato” who says “Dispensationalism is the product of JN Darby’s reflections.” A number of much earlier writers had the same beliefs even as early as Ephraem of Nisbis 306-73, he didn’t learn his theology from Darby. It may surprise you that he learned it from THE BIBLE. Now we don’t all have to agree on various topics, ie dispensational, covenant theology etc. however, we do need to be respectful and your following comments “…misinformed, silly Christians who’ve been taught that there are two ‘people of God’ and two plans of God for spiritual salvation (which generally rests on the faulty theology of Dispensationalism)” is far from respectful. I firmly believe, from reading the bible, that God has a different plan for His chosen people and has made certain promises to Israel that don’t apply to the church. This does not make me either misinformed or silly nor does it make my theology faulty. Stick to biblical facts and stay away from demeaning others who have a different biblical viewpoint than you.

By Pearl on Dec 18, 2008

PEARL:

I agree with you totally. While John Nelson Darby, (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) may have revived “dispensationalism” and the Scofield Bible (first published in 1909) popularised it, dispensationalism per se pre dates both by a very long stretch.

I also agree with your comment about the need to respect honest men with differing views on systematic eschatology. That God reserves the right to bless the person who disagrees with me, especially on end-time events, is a very good adage to live by.

For me it’s largely a question of balance. On a different matter, right now I have to respond to a question about whether I am “reformed”. The question is set in the context of our invitation to Paul Washer to our CWM Conference in August 2009. Paul is what many call reformed, although I do not know if he would apply the term to himself. While that term does have definite connotations in today’s Christian world, unfortunately it has also taken on elitist concepts. The important thing is not whether a person is “reformed” but whether or not he/she is “regenerated”. Unless a person is born-again he/she cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. Reformation does not save a person. Salvation always reforms everyone.

As I say it’s a matter of balance.

When a person is dubbed “reformed” what is usually meant is that he is “Calvinistic”. Both terms are far too general as well as being overly elitist at times. I am NOT a five point Calvinist simply because I think the starting point of the “T.U.L.I.P” acrostic is false. Mankind are NOT TOTALLY depraved e.g. all men are NOT intellectually depraved. Romans chapter 1 shows that men can seek after God intellectually. Most do have a knowledge of God. Total depravity according to Romans chapter 1 is the end result of a process, where men do NOT retain God in their knowledge and in their ways. Such end up being thrice given over by God and may end up being TOTALLY deprave.

Extremes in any doctrinal position relating to anthropology or eschatology are extremely dangerous. I do not accept extreme dispensationalism but I do accept it as Pearl has expressed it.

God does deal with Israel as a nation in His end-time build up of events. However Jews are not a select people in so far as salvation is concerned. Israelis and Jews can be saved ONLY on the same basis as all other people.

“Neither is there salvation in any other for there is NO OTHER name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.”

Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father but by me.”

By philip on Dec 18, 2008

My acceptance of moderate “dispensationalism” is simply based.

1) There is the dispensation of Innocence – the edenic state before the fall;
2) This was followed by the dispensation of Conscience without specific law - the patriarchs etc;
3) We then have the dispensation of partial covenant relationship - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc;
4) Then the dispensation of Law - Israel in the wilderness and the land;
5) We are now in the dispensation of Grace - the Church age;
6) There will be the future dispensation(s) relating to the return of Christ, the future Kingdom of God, etc.

I think problems occur when one becomes too rigid and too detailed, but I think it is totally unrealistic to reject all ideas about dispensationalism. Likewise I think covenantalism can be too detailed and too rigid. This is what I mean by balance. In accepting aspects of the one structure it is NOT necessary to reject aspects of the other. This I think is logically and theologically acceptable. At least it satisfies me, so there is no need to fall out over these things.

By philip on Dec 19, 2008

Hi Paul, Apology accepted. I stand by what I said and I feel I did read and quote in context. The inference being that these people were misinformed and silly not because they give money but because they believe “there are two ‘people of God’” This, however, may not have been your intent.

But you do make your beliefs clear with other comments you make:

1. “Indeed the church that Jesus is building has superseded the national Israel in God’s grand plan of all the ages of time.”

2. “And another thing to ponder is that Jesus himself is the fulfilment and the completion of all the Father had destined Israel to be.”

I really cannot see how you can come to these conclusions. The bible is full of prophecy (some fulfilled, some yet to be fulfilled) which can only relate to national Israel and not the NT church.

For brevity’s sake I won’t quote in full but just give the bible reference please look them up for yourself.
Genesis 17: 7-8 God makes promises to Israel with regard to the land of Canaan.This is obviously not a covenant with the church and it was given as everlasting not until such time as the Messiah comes.

Jeremiah 46:28 When was the church ever driven to other nations?

Jeremiah 32:37-42 Talks of God gathering the Jews from where he had scattered them in his anger and wrath and of the great calamity he has brought upon them. God hasn’t brought great calamity on the church, so again he is talking about Israel. You cant just cut and paste the church into place for the prophecies specific to Israel, it doesn’t make sense. If prophecies made about Israel have been fulfilled exactly then why would you think prophecy still to come regarding Israel no longer refers to them but to the NT church?

Yes a large part of National Israel has turned from God and profaned his name, however, Ezekiel 36 answers this.”This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name” and then “ I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

God made an everlasting promise and as he is not a liar he must keep his promises, it wasn’t conditional upon Israel’s behaviour. God is identified consistently in the bible as the “God of Israel” If indeed the church that Jesus is building has superseded the national Israel in God’s grand plan of all the ages of time.” as you state and that “Jesus himself is the fulfilment and the completion of all the Father had destined Israel to be.” Then doesn’t that make Gods promises finished, and how does this fit in with as yet unfulfilled prophecy which can only refer to Israel and not the church? And if its all been fulfilled what did God mean by everlasting I wonder.

Now I am not suggesting there are two ways to salvation, Christ is the one and only way, but God has and will have different dealings with his chosen people Israel and the believers in the Church. They remain separate and distinct.

Being new to blogs it took me some time to figure out what IMO meant but I have it now and right back at you Paul.

“IMO New Covenant Theology is based on faulty understandings of the whole Bible’s teachings. Dispensational Theology is a much better approach, but not without problem.” Ha Ha. I look forward to further discussions.

By Pearl on Dec 19, 2008

Paul, With all due respect you need to lighten up a little. My final paragraph was not a knee jerk reaction or anything else it was meant lightheartedly and was a direct copy of your IMO from 19/12, simply swapping the words “new covenant” and “dispensational” around. Did you not notice the Ha Ha.

Try googling Ephraem of Nisbis again (sometimes it is also spelled Nisibis). In GOOGLE you get thousands of results - maybe other search engines don’t provide so many results.

Happy reading and have a lovely silly season.

By Pearl on Dec 20, 2008

Just to explain why people don’t come out more from ‘corrupt’ parts of the church.

If you look more closely, people’s main loyalties these days are to their local church, and not to the movement to which that church belongs. So, when people hear the call from Philip and others to come out from them and be separate, they ask, “Do I need to leave the *individual church* I am part of?”, and, if the church is OK, the answer will generally be ‘no’.

To illustrate: For years in NZ I was part of a very strong Anglican church, despite the massive weaknesses of the national movement. It is true that Synods (regional meetings) could be an exercise in frustration with some of the people there, but that particular blot on the landscape was only once a year. I am now part of a Vineyard church which has a strong commitment to the Bible. That personal commitment is despite the problems that that particular movement has.

There is also another side of this problem that needs to be teased out. Even in strong Bible churches with a good pulpit ministry, if the people are busy getting ‘additional input’ from the likes of the Internet or God-TV, then a lot that the pastor is trying to do will be weakened in practice.

By Ross on Dec 22, 2008

Perhaps I am ‘musing out loud’ here, but for all the learnedness on this and many other blogs, I keep remembering that the thief on the cross had none such that I know of ~ and he was justified by his faith, Christ being His justification and, of course, the Author of his Salvation - essentially a free gift.
So - what is vitally important? I mean really important? It’s clearly not by making a ‘decision for Christ’ nor by completing the Alpha course. Certainly not by good works, we all know that.
I’ve been reading a very scary book by Dr. Chuck Missler called ‘Prophecy 20/20′ - it’s worth getting hold of as it will refine all sentiments surrounding our perceptions of Salvation and being saved - in fact it will focus us on two things
(a) What lies ahead
(b) What must we do and be — as creatures of choice — saved to the uttermost.
Dr. Missler reminds and advises that the days ahead of us are far more than fearful, as every one of these days brings about the ultra-developments of awesome weapons of mass destruction, the latest being the “electromagnetic pulse bomb” which has the power to be deployed over, say, the US - exploded 250 miles high and disable all electromagnetic and standard electrical fields. No casualties, just slow death for a highly civilised society! The book tells it in a lot more detail, also the web-site www.prophecy2020.com/wmd. And please, none of us should ever say, ‘well I’ll be raptured out of it”. Will we? are we absolutley sure whatever some theological pundits say? So, the core point : Deep abiding faith in Christ is of the essence, so is overcoming and so is sanctification - and so, dare I say it, is the fullest Baptism in the Holy Spirit and constant fillings. I am certainly no extremist, and confess to constant spiritual struggling, yet I am confident that when Jesus returns He will find in me the faith He is looking for - without which I believe subjectively, I cannot be part of the Harpazo. Yes, a remnant is being called out, yes it’s going to be very hard until the day dawns, and many more churchgoers will see this as time goes on and will know the import of that scripture that (only) His sheep will know and hear His voice as He calls us!

By Abraham on Dec 28, 2008

What does the Harpazo mean, in the above comment?

By Anonymous on Jan 5, 2009

Sorry, a word used for the Rapture, looking at 2 Cor. 12:2 “such a one caught up to the third heaven…” = in Strongs “seize or take by force - caught up..” & under reference 726 = Harpazo. It means being caught up or taken (by the Lord) and is equated as the more popular word “Rapture”.

By Abraham on Jan 5, 2009

Harpazo appears 13 times in the New Testament including 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Strong 726 - harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” being a major text on which the doctrine of the Rapture of the saints hangs.

By philip on Jan 5, 2009

MILLIONS MISSING or MILLIONS MISSLERING?
Many these days are abandoning the pretribulation rapture view, and the June, 1995 article by Chuck Missler (”Byzantine Text Discovery: Ephraem the Syrian”) reveals why there is such a mutiny! First of all, the authoritative scholar that Missler cited, Dr. Paul Alexander, referred only to “Pseudo-Ephraem” and not to Ephraem the Syrian. (If an unsigned ancient manuscript resembles the real Ephraem but there is a question of authorship, they assign it to “Pseudo-Ephraem” - the word “pseudo” meaning “possibly.” For some groundless reason, Grant Jeffrey, the one who reportedly found the “discovery,” changed Dr. Alexander’s terminology! For more info on Jeffrey, Google “Wily Jeffrey.”)

And Missler’s scholarship is also questionable. According to the Los Angeles Times (July 30, 1992), about one-fourth of Missler’s 1992 book “The Magog Factor” (which he co-authored with Hal Lindsey) was a daring plagiarism of Dr. Edwin Yamauchi’s 1982 book “Foes from the Northern Frontier”! Four months later Yamauchi’s publisher revealed that both Lindsey and Missler had promised to stop all publishing of their book. But in 1995 they were found publishing “The Magog Invasion” (which was either a revision or a replacement of “The Magog Factor”) - which had a substantial amount of the same plagiarism! (Dave MacPherson’s 1998 book “The Three R’s” has complete documentation on this and other pretrib scandals.) .
.
After listing “1820″ as the reported date of the birth of pretrib (he should have said “1830″), Missler sees a pretrib rapture in that Medieval writer’s phrase “taken to the Lord” and, since he evidently favors rewriting others instead of researching, is unaware that Dr. Alexander explained that this phrase really means “participate at least in some measure in beatitude” - which has reference only to doing acts of virtue on earth and not being raptured away from earth! Alexander added that the same ancient writer held to only one final second coming (and not to any prior coming) which would follow the time of Antichrist! (Readers can Google “Deceiving and Being Deceived” by MacPherson to see how groundless the Pseudo-Ephraem claim is and to learn how desperate pretribs are to find any pre-1830 evidence for their escapist view. Dr. Robert Gundry of Westmont College has also demolished the Pseudo-Ephraem claim in his 1997 book “First the Antichrist.”)
Since Missler also leans on Thomas Ice, readers can evaluate Ice’s qualifications by Googling “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun),” and “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” (the latter part). For further light on the 179-year-old, fringe-British-invented pretribulation theory, Google or Yahoo “Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts.”

Finally - why would anyone who has the brains of a rocket scientist want to be taken up with the concept of an any-moment pretrib rapture? The answer may well be that there’s more money in elevating a rapture than launching a rocket!

By Katie on Feb 1, 2009

Eschatology:
There are 3 traditional positions on the end-times:
- Futurism - The belief that most of the prophesies in the Bible concerning the end-times are still to come. It was first introduced by a Spanish Catholic Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera in 1590.

- Preterism - The belief that most of the prophesies in the Bible concerning the end-times happened by 70 A.D. It was first introduced by a Spanish Catholic Jesuit priest named Luis De Alcazar posthumously in 1614.

- Historicism - The belief that most of the prophesies in the Bible concerning the end-times have been occuring over time. This was and has been the commonly held belief of Protestants during and after the Reformation.

http://www.historicist.com/related_subjects/problems.htm

“How is it Christians can be divided over spiritual issues if the Holy Spirit is their Teacher?” ~ Rand Winburn
http://www.iconbusters.com

P.S. Good post, Katie!

Peace,
Elaine

By Elaine on Feb 3, 2009

There are many errors in the church - I believe that God will soon shake the church and only what is of Jesus Christ will remain. However, each one of us needs a shaking - not only for purification but also to get rid of all the baggage that has been accumulated through history via Christendom as well as evangelicalism. It is sad though that many of the ‘errors’ mentioned on this blog and website against Christian groups are largely based on misconceptions, false accusations, pettyfogging, straining at gnats, and faultfinding. Every Christian cult believes it is a remnant of the faithful.

By Anonymous on Feb 17, 2009

Dear Anonymous:

It would be great if we knew who we are addressing.

You have a point that many Christian cults (certainly not every cult) believe they are a remnant of the “faithful”. However, as with every other issue, Scripture is the test. “If they speak not according to this Word it is because there is no light in them.” Paul, by implication, instructs us all to act like the ancient Bereans - see Acts 17:11 - and search the scriptures in respect of what is being taught. We at CWM try to do that and you should do the same and not simply engage in dismissive generalisations as you have done above.

For the record we do not believe that we are “The Faithful Remnant”, but we do believe that we are part of that remnant, which the Bible clearly predicts will emerge in the end times.

You acknolwdge that there are many errors in the “Church” and that it needs a shaking. So let’s pray that the shaking will occur and that errors will be shaken out.

Please show us where we have made “false accusations”? If you can’t, then you would understand that you are guilty yourself of making a false accusation against us. Also, please point out with specific reference the other things you accuse us of–straining at gnats, faultfinding, pettyfogging, (maybe you mean “pettifogging”)– largely based, you say, on “misconceptions”.

Well, what are the misconceptions and what evidence - using specific examples - do you have for your accusations? If you don’t, or can’t, produce them then you have falsely accused us.

I look forward to hearing from you ASAP.

Sincerely yours in Christ,

http://www.christian-witness.org/blog
http://www.cwmfellowship.org
http://www.christian-witness.org

By philip on Feb 17, 2009

Philip - every group believes that their interpretation of scripture is the final test, as do heresy hunters. Those you accuse also are genuine in their interpretation of scripture and measure everything by scripture, as well as having a relationship with the One who is the way, the truth and the life. You are right that it is spelt ‘pettifogging’ rather than ‘pettyfogging’ - and perhaps this correction on your part goes some ways to proving my point. Evidence for false accusations, malicious gossip, pettifogging, and misconceptions abound in your various publications, and are clear for those with even a little discernment to view.

By Anonymous on Feb 18, 2009

Anonymous - why won’t you state your name? Are you ashamed to stand by what you write?

The Bible is of NO private interpretation cf. 2 Peter 1: 20. We come to a correct interpretation by comparing spiritual things with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2: 13) and by comparing scripture with scripture. By this method the Holy Spirit leads us into ALL truth. So your simple dismissal based on the idea that every group believes that “their interpretation is the final test”, is just plain silly and a ridiculous way of arguing. It begs the question and in effect builds a straw man which is then thrown down. This is irrational.

You have not and cannot provide the evidence for your accusations against us, so they are false accusations. I have challenged you to do so and you have failed. You try to cover your failure by making additional generalised accusations. This type of discussion goes nowhere and is pointless.

Please tell us who you are and please respond to my challenge to point out where we are guilty of the things of which you accuse us, otherwise please desist.

I am happy to carry out a rational discussion, but you are being totally unreasonable.

By philip on Feb 18, 2009

The bible is clear that we see only in part. No human can make claim to perfect doctrine - if it is not perfect then by definition it is in error. What you seem to imply by what you have said above, and through your various publications, is that everyone who does not agree with your interpretation of scripture is a heretic. A very arrogant position to take, to say the least. The evidence for false allegations and the bearing of false witness is clear in your various publications. I know you are frustrated that I won’t oblige by also pettifogging, but you’ll just have to get over it.

By Anonymous on Feb 18, 2009

Dear whoever you are:

I really am not frustrated and have nothing to “get over”.

According to the dictionary “pettifogging” principally means to practice legal deception or trickery and secondarily to quibble or wrangle about petty points.

Seeing you will not come clean I will say no more. By your failure you have turned this into the very thing of which you accuse me.

Kind regards and farewell.

By philip on Feb 18, 2009

The most apt definion of pettifogging in the context of your ungodly behaviour when faultfinding various Christians and Christian groups - is that of quibbling over petty points. However, the various definitions in the various dictionaries and thesauruses - both in print as well as online - in my opinion are all apt at various levels. This too is all I have to say on the matter - except to say that I pray that as you learn to walk with God as Enoch did - that the Lord would open up the eyes of your heart and that you would repent of the false accusations and malicious gossip you bring against many of your brothers and sisters in Christ.

By Anonymous on Feb 18, 2009

Anonymous,

Your attack on the integrity of Philip and CWM is so trite and lacking in substance as to be absolutely meaningless.

Specific reference to issues of concern will contribute to a positive outcome when they are dealt with in the context of the clear teachings of scripture.

You do yourself a great disservice by attacking the man and not the issue(s) and refusing to provide substance to your apparent vitriol.

The issues referred to in this and other such blogs are the issues of eternal life and eternal damnation. They are hardly the “petty” issues you so glibly disparage with references to inappropriately dismissive terms.

People who think they are saved are going to hell because of their willingness to conform to politically correct notions so prevalent within the contemporary church. Ecumenical fervour is not the least of these delusions. Your dismissive attitudes are contributing to the comfort of those deceived with these delusions.

As Philip has requested be specific or be repentant.

Wayne

By Wayne Capell on Feb 19, 2009

Thanks Paul and Wayne for jumping to my defence. I really do wonder who “anonymous” is. Frankly he sounds like an old colleague–someone who I attended Bible College with, and who was keen on using words like “pettifogging” when he didn’t really understand their meanings. Any way I doubt he’ll have the courage to give us his real name.

I can agree to differ on many things as you both know and as Paul has pointed out with evidence. What “anonymous” has done is totally unreasonable in that he has made attacks against me and others without any substantive evidence. When he was challenged he simply resorted to other generalised attacks as you have both pointed out.

On the point of T.U.L.I.P and the other acronym E.L.E.C.T in my view Paul we will always end up in a logical and theological quagmire. This is because of the nature of words, which are best described as “lame vehicles” of expression. It is the danger of formulating ideas and doctrines with trite expressions. In a sense we all do it and so all become guilty.

Yes - I do have problems with the idea of “total” in the TULIP acronym, but similarly I think I would have difficulty with “exhaustive” in the ELECT acronym. Romans chapter 1 argues against both ideas as I understand the meaning of each word. My understanding of biblical teaching is that man is capable of seeking after God until God finds him. He cannot be saved as a result of his own inquiries or on his own apart from God’s infusion of saving grace. Similarly I think that anyone is very hard pushed to biblically argue that man can never finally resist the amazing grace that God offers and employs. This does not mean that man’s will triumphs over God’s Will. It is simply that God in His absolute sovereign will has determined that things will be thus. He did not make man a robot but a creature of choice and that will always apply. His will makes many a man willing, but there will always remain the option of saying “I wont.”

I am sure mine will not be the final word on the topic that has occupied the greatest minds of all time. One day we will “know even as also we are known”. May God haste that day. Until that time may He grant us His grace to allow for differences and to always give a “reason” - literally the “defence” - with rational evidence for the hope within.

In Christ.

By philip on Feb 20, 2009

Actually Philip - I am not attacking you, I don’t know you, never met you. I am however addressing the public attacks you make against many Christians. I don’t need to waste time being specific as you and other heresy hunters know who they are. Furthermore, the specifics have been pointed out to you many times by myself and others - but you only respond with further false allegations and misconceptions.

The bottom line is - you need to repent of malicious gossip and bearing of false witness against your brothers and sisters in Christ. I pray you do this before we all have to give an account for our words spoken against others - before Christ on judgement day.

By Anonymous on Feb 25, 2009

Anonymous, Only the Jesus of the Bible can save us. The inventions of man will be useless when we stand before the throne on the Judgement day.
The only way to avoid the delusion which God has promised to send to those who do not love the truth is to be totally committed to judging all things by the Word of God.
All true ‘heresy hunters’ - as you choose to call biblical christians everywhere - are faithfully applying the blowtorch of scripture to the nonsense which is being fed to, and accepted by, a gullible generation who have chosen not to love the truth and to follow after false gods.

On this blog you have here the opportunity to detail your allegations and provide some form of evidence for the basis of your claims or to apologise to Philip and to the other well-intentioned participants on this site.

By Wayne Capell on Feb 25, 2009

I’d love to work with you all. May God bless you all.

brother evans

By Evans on Mar 1, 2009

Anonymous,
Free speech is almost as precious as rubies, but I do think you ought to append your identity to avoid confusion.

By Abraham on Mar 2, 2009