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PENTECOSTAL DISGRACE - Catch the Fire Honouring the Late Frank Houston

13 July 2007 – 11:47 pm

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EDITORIAL COMMENT: The words below constitute a verbatim transcript of the above sound bite of Danny Nalliah’s introductory public statement at the Catch the Fire thanksgiving service in Melbourne on Saturday May 26, 2007. It relates to the honouring of the late Frank Houston. The bold print is Philip Powell’s [PP] analysis of Danny Nalliah’s [DN] talk.

Starts abruptly -

[Danny’s introduction:]
[DN] - The Lord placed in my heart very strongly that where there is no honour there is no power. And then He said to me, He said ‘Son there are many fathers and mothers in this land who have served tirelessly in this nation. They didn’t have all the equipment today’s generation has but they did it and they did it well.’ And He said, ‘Son we need to honour them, you need to honour them, love them, cheer them and tell them how much we love them.’ And I’m looking at a generation, which has values which we desperately need in this generation. We are, I think, a very rich country but unfortunately morally and spiritually we are almost bankrupt.

[PP] Danny Nalliah lays claim to hear directly from God who he says addresses him as ’son’. Please note this appears several times throughout his speech. It is non biblical to claim that God addresses anyone in this way other than His Only begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. This is dangerous neo-Pentecostal or Charismatic jargon. That aside the idea that where there is no honour there is no power is unscriptural. The biblical claim is that a ‘prophet’ is without honour only in his own country (John 4: 44). Our Lord cited that principle and did nothing to remedy it. He simply made it as a statement of fact, yet performed miracles notwithstanding that fact. No where is there the thought that we have to honour other men in order to experience God’s power ourselves which is the obvious idea that Danny is driving at. It is totally unbiblical. In fact the way Mr Nalliah applies his idea is something that Scripture tells us NOT to do. We are not to honour each other in this way. The Bible tells us that if we seek to honour or please men we cease to be true servants of Christ cf. Galatians 1: 10; John 5: 44. This is serious stuff.

[DN] And these men and women have the values that this generation now and the next generation needs. That’s why we decided that we would bring this thanksgiving service today as a special event where we honour the fathers and mothers of the land. Of course, we cannot get everyone in town into the place, it’s not physically possible, but as the Lord led us we chose a few who will come and sit with us today. I want the guests to remain seated and the congregation to stand and give them a big clap.

There are some who couldn’t be with us today because they are travelling interstate and ministering in different locations but we will honour them in this service even though they’re not here. But also another great man who is now not now on earth but who is in the kingdom of heaven - we will be honouring the late Frank Houston and Hazel Houston.

[PP] Frank Houston was expelled by his denomination on account of serious sexual immorality - see the article The Honouring of the Late Frank Houston (But the God in whose hand is your breath, and whose are all your ways, you have not honoured - Daniel 5:23).  The case for which Frank was disciplined was different from the case for which Peter Fowler, another of Frank Houston’s victims, obtained settlement with AoG-NZ for having been sexually abused by Frank Houston in the 1970s. Is this the value that this and the next generation according to Daniel Nalliah needs?

[Service continues with musical/dance items and the honouring of the guests who are present. Now we pick up again at the point beginning with the honouring of the late Frank Houston.]

[DN] - Back in the 1970’s as a boy of 12, I did not want to go to church. I was very rebellious. During this time there was a man who had come from Australia to speak at a church about 10 minutes away from where I lived in Sri Lanka. They said it was a man called Frank Houston. I said, ‘Who cares’, because I didn’t want to go to church. My mother said, ‘You have to go to church - he’s come all the way from Australia.’ I said, ‘I didn’t tell him to come’. She said, ‘No, you have no choice, you have to go to church.’ So well, my Dad dragged me along like a bull taken to slaughter. I was dragged to church that Sunday.

[PP] The charge for which Frank Houston was expelled by his denomination with the condition that he was never to preach on any AoG platform in New Zealand or in Australia related to a case of sexual abuse of a young man in the 1970s. There is now increasing evidence that irrespective of who brought that charge (it wasn’t Peter Fowler) against Frank it was NOT an isolated incident. According to Anthony Venn Brown’s website a person identified as the senior minister of CLC, Waterloo conducted counselling sessions which were “nothing more than sexual abuse disguised in the form of the need of a father’s love and discipline”. The person who was the senior minister of CLC Waterloo at that time was none-other than the late Frank Houston.

[DN] - I sat in a congregation of about 1,000 people. This man starts preaching and all heaven opened up. Demons were coming out, blind eyes were opening up and deaf ears were opening up. I think the word of God says something like this, correct me if I’m wrong - ‘these signs shall follow those who believe in Me; they shall have a big church, a BMW, a luxury house and they’ll have a PhD, a BA and an M-A-D.’ I think we’ve lost the plot.’ These signs shall follow those who believe in Me; they shall heal the sick, cast out demons.’ I didn’t want another sermon. I wanted to see the glory of God. I wanted to see a man who can show what is real. Church, that’s what the nation is looking for. They’re not looking for a church, which can have a hype-up, and a dance, and a movie, and “a this” and “a that”. People are looking for real Christians, fair dinkum Christians. What’s the difference if the church is similar to the Mosque or the cinema or the temple? Church has to be different. The power of God has to provide in the church. All of the qualifications are fantastic - we need them, that’s another chip for us, praise God for that - but if we don’t have the glory of God in the church we’ve lost the plot completely. We need to get back to the Word of God. We need to see the glory of God released into the church.

[PP] - Well now,  just think for a minute. Ignore the ‘hype’ of Mr Nalliah’s claims - yes it is hype. The meeting occurred more than 30 years ago and about the same time when the late Frank Houston had committed sexual abuse against at least two young men in New Zealand. Think about Danny Nalliah’s claim. Remember Danny was a boy of 12 at the time. He recalls that “heaven opened up”, “demons were coming out”, miracles occurred. It all sounds so fantastic until you consider that this is claimed to be happening through this man Frank Houston who is now known to have been a homosexual paedophile and who actually committed those sins at around that time - in the 1970s. Does that really make sense?

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity - Matthew 7:22-23.

[DN] - And yes people were mocking, laughing, joking, but I saw a man of God who had come from Australia in the 70’s and started storming Heaven and God started moving and demons were coming out and the next thing he started walking towards me and I got really scared. I thought, ‘boy, he’s going to cast out demons out of me.’ He put his hand on my head and he starts saying this long story. I didn’t know that it was a prophesy about my destiny. I was sitting there thinking, ‘You’re embarrassing me; will you take your hand off me and please get out.’ But he just went on and he went on and he went on and I’m sitting there very embarrassed with everyone looking at me and thinking that I’m so privileged and I just felt embarrassed. And then a demon started manifesting and this man climbed the rafter and Frank Houston looked at the guy standing on the rafter on the roof and he said, ‘In the name of Jesus - down’. I thought if he falls down he’s going to break his legs. The next thing, the guy jumps - no legs broken but he fell right next to my feet and what do you think I did - I jumped for the aisle and ran for my life out of the church. But this man of God went on for 16 days and God moved mightily in Sri Lanka through this man of God who is considered an apostle to the nation of Sri Lanka. Then in 1994, he came back into Sri Lanka and he looked at me - I was worship leader and he said, ‘Son, the time has come, God is fulfilling His promise’ - not realising 20 years ago he had spoken destiny into my life.

I love Papa Frank with all my heart. I wish I could give him a big hug. I could not do that because I didn’t know where he was ever since I came to Australia in 1997. His wife was an absolute pillar of faith. I could go on and on. Let’s have the photograph up. That’s Papa Frank and his wife Hazel.

I’m going to ask Pastor Bob Cotton who was a son to Papa Frank and his wife Hazel to come and share a few words.

[Bob:] Thank you Pastor Danny. I love listening to the way Danny speaks when he speaks of our father in the faith, pastor Frank. The Bible teaches us that we have many teachers but not many fathers and, truly, Pastor Frank was a father in the Pentecostal Movement. He was one who loved to embrace ministers and share everything that he had with them including his passion for the presence and the power of the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul said that when he came to the church at Corinth it wasn’t with wise and persuasive words but it was with a demonstration of the Holy Spirit’s power, so that their faith would be built not on the words of men or not on intellectual concepts but built on the power of God. And that’s exactly how I knew Pastor Frank Houston. He was a man who moved in the power of the Holy Ghost. His heart was for real salvations, real healings, and real deliverances. I was fortunate enough to be a guest in his house on numerous occasions and he and lady Hazel, as we’d call her, would come and visit our house and his conversation was always full of facts and stories and wonderful accounts about what he had seen Jesus do through him. He was an inspiration not just to me but to many other spiritual sons and daughters throughout this nation.

We know that Pastor Frank came to Australia at the age of 55 and commenced a work in Sydney from which something like 70 Pentecostal churches were planted. These churches were all marked with the presence of the Holy Ghost - a great Pentecostal legacy. We have many teachers but not many fathers. And often when I’d talk with Pastor Frank he’d say, ‘Bob, do you know what the problem with the church is today?’ And I’d say, ‘What Pastor Frank’, and he’d say, ‘They don’t speak in tongues enough. Hardly any of them would know how to cast out a devil if it stared them in the eye’. So I would ring him up sometimes and I’d say, ‘Pastor Frank. This devil - I couldn’t shift it the other day. What do you reckon?’ And he’d start to tell me a few little insights and different things that he’d known in the past, and we’ve seen many people come into freedom as we would apply the principles of scripture and the truth of the word of God. Pastor Frank loved the word of God and he had the faith to believe in a God of miracles. It’s my honour to stand here today and say Pastor Frank wasn’t just a father in the faith to me, he was one of my closest mates and I love him. I cherish his memory and, like Danny, I wish he were here so I could give him a great big hug tonight because there was nobody quite like ‘the bishop’ in Pentecostal circles and those of you who knew him would have to say amen to that.

I would like to say to Graham and to Beverly, thank you for sharing your Dad with us. Thank you so much for what he’s done. As I’ve travelled the world sometimes with Pastor Danny and at other times, you cannot go anywhere without hearing about Pastor Frank Houston when they find out you’re from Australia. It’s an honour to have know him. Thank you brother [referring to Danny].

[Danny:] We’ve been giving a plaque to everyone who’s been honoured, I’d like Bob to read what’s on the [Frank’s] plaque.

[Bob:] National Thanksgiving Day, Victorian Celebration, May 26, 2007. On the fourth National Thanksgiving Day, it is with much honour that we present this token of our appreciation to the late Pastor Frank and Mrs. Hazel Houston. Your valued service to the body of Christ over many years has been an investment in the heritage of our Nation and has given this Nation the opportunity to embrace and fulfil the prophetic destiny of this Southern land of the Holy Spirit. You have led the way, laid the foundation and have been strategic in implementing the God-given call upon your lives. This Nation and many others are richer because of your sacrifice and obedience. The name of the Lord is hallowed and His glory released because of your desire to release your anointing to establish His kingdom.

[The scripture on the plaque is from 1 Kings 2:2-4.]

David’s charge to Solomon: ‘So be strong, show yourself a man and observe what the Lord your God requires, walk in His ways and keep His decrees and comands, His Laws and requirements as written in the Law of Moses so that you may prosper in all that you do and where ever you go and that the Lord may keep His promise unto me. If your descendants watch how they live and if they walk faithfully before me with all their heart and soul you will never fail to have to have a man on the throne of Israel.’ - The Christian Community of Australia.

[Danny calls Frank Houston’s son Graham and daughter Beverly up on stage and presents them with the plaque.]

[Danny then reads out a short message from Brian Houston received via SMS on Danny’s cell phone:]

‘Dear Pastor Danny, thank you for honouring my father tonight. He impacted a multitude of people. Every blessing - Brian Houston.’

[Danny triumphantly:] “I want to make a declaration right now. This day on Thanksgiving day, we bring honour and respect to the Reverend Frank Houston and Hazel Houston.”

  1. 302 Responses to “PENTECOSTAL DISGRACE - Catch the Fire Honouring the Late Frank Houston”

  2. When I read your article I was pleased to see that someone else has concerns about Danny Nalliah.
    On his DVD “Call to Action - The Message”, Danny Nalliah includes four testimonies, (two from pastors and two from his employees) to promote himself as “the apostle to Australia”. I bought the DVD when he visited my local church late in 2006. During his talk at the church he briefly spoke about Frank Houston’s affect on his life. At that stage I was unaware of Frank’s past and his eventual expulsion from his denomination.
    On the night I was more concerned by Nalliah’s endorsement of Benny Hinn. Since that night I have been on Nalliah’s mailing list. One email he distributed instructed recipients to vote Liberal in the last NSW state election. He had done the same thing prior to the Victorian state election, even boasting a few days later that Labor had already been defeated because of his campaign - in fact Labor were returned. Late in June this year Nalliah notified his mailing list of a 1 hour 20 minute encounter he’d had with the Lord. During this time the Lord instructed him to organise a nation-wide prayer meeting on the 07/07/07 between the hours of 7 am and 7pm. “The Lord”, he said, also gave 7 promises to the church should they be faithful enough to meet for prayer between these times.

    Immediately ‘alarm bells started ringing’ and more so when my local fellowship announced their involvement with Nalliah’s plans; considering he claimed that the Lord had given him these dubious promises I saw the issue was extremely serious and should not be taken lightly. I investigated Nalliah’s promises, compared them with scripture and then submitted a letter to the pastor and elders outlining why Nalliah’s claimed encounter and the 7 promises were bogus. I also pointed out the error of giving significance to the 7s in the date and times. However my warnings were unheeded and on the day after the prayer meeting I found the walls of the church building had been covered with printed up copies of each of the 7 promises. They were still there last Sunday, two weeks later (Sunday 23 July).
    I have since found that similar meetings for prayer had been called around the world on that date. These were publicised prior to the date of Nalliah’s claimed encounter with the Lord. The organisers of one of these meetings (in Nashville) made reference to obscure scripture verses from the Song of Songs 8:6-7. Nalliah also used these verses to substantiate one of the promises allegedly given by the Lord. (The verse in fact had no relevance to Nalliah’s usage).
    This occasion is not the first time that Nalliah has claimed a personal encounter with Jesus. In his autobiography “Worship Under the Sword” he reports that Jesus spent 2 hours 20 minutes with him in July 1997 to give him details of his future ministry.
    Nalliah’s organisation in Australia also leans heavily on “the Great Southland of the Holy Spirit” idea [’prophecy’] from the 1600s - promoting the idea of widespread revival in this nation based on the promise of that ‘prophecy’.

    By onesimus on Jul 23, 2007

  3. I was a 23 year old ‘leader’ in the True Vine Christian Community in the early 80’s, in Northern NSW. The community was overseen by Frank Houston and the Christian Life Centre in Sydney.
    We were a couple of hundred mostly young ‘flower children’ types, and it was a very special group (though things went seriously wonky in the end for many reasons).
    It totally blows my mind to think that Frank was a homosexual and pedophile! I met him a number of times and I remember him describing me to the congregation as having a million dollar smile.
    We were all so absolutely dedicated to being real with God, it just stuns me to think that he could have been hiding such an outrageous (by straight Christian moral standards) secret life!!!!
    What a thick hide the guy must have had. I would even venture that he must have been borderline insane.
    I am not technically a Christian any longer, and I know exactly why and I am happy with my own philosophy. I am someone who feels a strong relationship with God. I am not homosexual, but I am not phased by other people’s homosexuality. The thing I am phased by is someone pretending to be an apostle (which claim was made of him by many) while at the same time hiding ’sins’ that put him totally outside the pale!
    For the whole 3 years I was a live-in member of that community I was celibate. I was constantly tempted to flirt and maybe go further with pretty girls in the community and outside it, but it just never occurred to me to give in. It’s not that damn hard to do!
    I was there to serve Jesus, to give my life back to Him who died for me (that’s exactly what I believed).
    If Frank had any real relationship with God he would have just left, or handed himself in. I always have kept a certain memory of him as a ‘great man of God’. Now, once again in my 49 years of life, I have discovered that a wise and noble person I have looked up to was in fact a turkey!
    That’s one of the reasons I do not subscribe to any orthodox religious system - they are all created by other people just like us, and as you go on in life and grow older you realise that we are all turkeys in our own way! Why should I put my faith in what other turkeys believe?
    I am only interested in the greatest and ineffable God, the real one. Whoever or whatever THAT is (surely not a human!)- the ‘I AM’ says it right. THAT I don’t understand, but that I trust. That’s real faith, no book of rules, just one little being to another (really really big) being.
    God Bless you who choose to read thus far!
    Write to me if you want.

    By David on Sep 25, 2007

  4. Just for the record I attended the Elim Pentecostal confrenece about 20 years or so ago and one of the guest preachers was guess who Pastor Frank Houston. I was only about 14/15 at the time and Frank had a profound effect on my life.

    I was with a group of other young people from our Pentecostal church in Northern Ireland and we had such a great time with Pastor Frank who did spend a lot of time with the young people and was by the very nature of his character an attraction to my young friends and I at the time.

    Pastor Frank related many stories and teachings to us at the time and also prayed for us, and as far as I was concerned he was a true man of God. Pastor Houston never ever came across to me at any time as having any other motive other than encouraging us as young christians which he undoubtedly did.

    I would say Frank was flawless in the way he dealt with myself and my young friends at the time and at no point at all did he ever make any type of advances towards myself or, to my knowledge, my friends at the time - in spite of having opportunities to do so, due to the fact that on occasions (for instance after some of the services) at the time we approached him on his own to get more advice, counselling, prayer and direction.

    I find it difficult to comprehend that Pastor Frank Houston could ever have hurt or harmed any young person as I even had cause to meet him about a year later when he visited Northern Ireland. At this time I had met Pastor Frank in my home town at my request and again he did nothing but encourage and pray for me

    I am not very sure of the full and exact allegations in relation to Pastor Frank some years ago however my comments are purely entered here as a point of good character in relation to my memories of him and his dealings with me.

    Robbie
    Northern Ireland

    By robbie on Nov 16, 2007

  5. Interesting article, for sure.

    By Observer on Nov 17, 2007

  6. David
    I would advise you to look up “Reformed Theology” read as much as you can, you will find that it will point you to a true understanding of the Bible and Christianity. It would also be helpful to read the “Westminster Confession of Faith”

    By Stephen on Nov 27, 2007

  7. Philip

    ROBBIE:

    There is no doubt that Frank Houston was a paedophile - probably throughout his life after he started down that path in the 1970s. I have no doubt he covered his tracks and so was a sort of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde character. This would account for your own good feelings towards him and experiences of him. I am sure others would support your story. It’s all very sad.

    By philip on Nov 28, 2007

  8. The Scriptures say that Preachers who lay their hands on people will ” HEAL THEM ” . Yet Danny Nalliah and others do the laying on of the hands and no cripple has ever got out of the wheelchair and done a brisk normal walk . I know why , do you Australia know why ? . It’s so simple , Danny Nalliah and all others Preachers have not been chosen to heal . I claim again , Danny Nalliah and all other Preachers have not been choosen to heal ; so please wake up you flock of silly people in the deceived silly Apostlic and Pentecostal Churches . Yes it means you and your church friends . So stop puffing up liars like Danny Nalliah by agreeing with them that they have God’s Power in the ” laying on of hands ” . STOP IT , STOP IT and STOP IT Australia .. Bunbury , Western Australia .

    By John Murie on Dec 6, 2007

  9. David,
    Thanks for your contribution of 25/9, it was helpful. I was in True Vine Christian Community in 1983 in my early 30s, having been a Christian 20 years at that stage, and lived in this alternate community of Christ’s followers with real awe at the work of God’s Spirit in people’s lives, yet disturbed regularly at the pastor-worship that was promoted by Pastors Hoyle and Hansen, particularly toward Frank Houston. When believers accept an hierarchical structuring of corporate life it seems inevitable that mutual accountability flies out the window and the sins we are tempted with can be covered more easily. I’ve followed Jesus 42 of my last 44 years and continue standing amazed at God’s rich grace and mercy. The spiritual revival in True Vine CC was authentic - and the problems there had also occurred in other revivals in church history. While now receiving refreshment spiritually from the Evangelical, Reformed, Charismatic, and Pacific theological streams I receive most from contemplating the NT’s teachings. God works on in each of us.
    Hyped-up churches seem to have bred a superficial spirituality, and sometimes a pseudo-spirituality, yet in among it all (and despite it) the deep and genuine work of the Holy Spirit continues in people thirsty to know the triune God. Leaders like Danny, Frank, Brian, etc seem to have strange ways of following the Man from Nazareth……. a lot of mud containing gemstones may be an apt description.
    Allow me to encourage you, David, to continue following Jesus, the eternal Son of God, for each of us have been created for friendship with Him.

    By Paul on Dec 18, 2007

  10. Since the failure of his election prophecy, Mr Nalliah has been trying to deflect attention by highlighting the new government’s claimed pro-homosexual stance.

    Does anyone see the irony of this, considering the way Nalliah has idolised Frank Houston?

    By onesimus on Dec 18, 2007

  11. Onesimus, you are quite right on the ironic (& deeply tragic) misplaced honour that is showered on certain popular leaders in a blanket-endorsement practice to one another, who are gradually being found-out for living double-lives. One wonders who will be next, nowadays, as it appears to be happening every other week - and the Australian movements in pentecost seem to have become extremely Americanised and subject to the same evil temptations.

    In church cultures that promote the ’star performer’ mindset of ministry (including Evangelical, Liberal, Pentecostal, quasi-charismatic, Catholic, etc) there is very little ‘honouring one another’ toward the 99% of members of Christ’s body who also minister without big-potato titles. It’s as though there is an unspoken agreement that “if I say nice things about you then you’ll say nice things about me and I’ll quote you publicly to enhance my credibility and to discourage scrutiny of my message and my lifestyle”. Lavish lifestyles are maintained through very questionable teachings on tithing, extreme wealth acquisition, and new ‘revelations’ - which those who are trying to measure up to their guru’s expectations are swallowing hook, line, and sinker. Time to re-examine our ecclesiologies as well as our doctrines, don’t you agree?

    What do you think of the ‘Australian Christian Churches’ brand name now being the name of the AoG in Australia …… have they hijacked it from the network of pentecostal denominations that used this name for the best part of the last decade? Or has A/G in Australia swalloped up their smaller brother-denominations? Without accurate info on their new website it leaves me questioning the integrity and accountability of the ‘big potatoes’ in such actions, and the acquisition of the name itself for sole use of certain groups smacks of total disregard of the millions of Australian Christians who are not associated with these brand-affiliated churches. This disgrace too is being lived out right now under our noses.

    The 4 great temptations of preachers apply to each of us: gold……. glory……. girls/guys…….. & giving-up. Each of us need to continue repenting, reforming, and restoring as we follow Christ Jesus, the hope of our life.

    ….. a ’small potato’ .

    By Paul on Jan 1, 2008

  12. HOMOSEXUALITY AOG
    Is the admission by Brian Houston to sodomy [re his father Frank]? If so, why hasn’t anyone used the word. Homosexuality can mean various perverted sexual practices. What actually did he admit to?
    Regards, - Greg.

    By Greg on Jan 13, 2008

  13. Greg, a Google search may be more beneficial in answering the specifics - a boy in NZ in 1970s and a trainee pastor in Frank’s church in Sydney in 1980s seem to be popping up most often.
    Not sure this forum is able to get as specific as you may wish.
    ……..
    Danny Nalliah must breathe a sigh of relief that we are under the New Covenant and not the Old, for as a false prophet (regarding Australia’s 11/07 federal govt election) he did not speak God’s words at all - see Deuteronomy 18:20-22. Yet he preaches Old Covenant tithing as continuing today, and disobeys the rest of this practice as he does not give it to Hebrew Levites.
    Preachers seem to covet just as much as general society does, and not satisfied with their stipend they are increasingly seeking scandalous wealth through Scripture-twisting. Then they go on the visiting-preacher circuit to get more money a.k.a.’love offerings’ - a member of Frank Houston’s family once told me in the mid-1980s that Frank received over $100,000 p.a. in tax-free “love offerings” in addition to his generous stipend (partly-taxable). It seems a long way from following the Man from Nazareth.
    …..
    Has the result of the Victorian court case with Muslim people (over alleged vilification of Muslims in one of his meetings), and the generous support of a wide range of evangelical Christians during it, gone to Danny Nalliah’s head so much that he now regards himself as infallible? Beware, brothers and sisters.
    Paul …a small potato

    By Paul on Jan 16, 2008

  14. I am pastor Everlyne.
    living in kenya africa

    I am a pastor who has just started a church were we
    preach and teach the word of God
    we also take care of the orphans and the needy we aslo
    visit the sick in the hospitals we give them gift
    we pray for them and shear the word of God with them
    we will like to partner and affielate with your
    ministry in net-working as we preach the
    word of God here in kenya Africa
    how can i get intouch with your ministy?

    we will be greatful to have your fit back

    thanks
    yours
    pastor Everlyne daniels
    new life church international
    P.O BOX 519mumias 50102 kenya
    WESTERN PROVINCE
    KENYA EAST AFRICA

    By pastor Evelyne daniels on Feb 21, 2008

  15. I was born a Catholic, Mum and Dad became Christians at CLC in Waterloo in 88.
    I remember Frank very well. He prayed over my life when I was a little boy. He even gave me pocket money. To know now, over four years after he died, that he did this to little boys [and laying hands over my life when I was five] is a disgrace. It makes me realise you never know what people are like, even someone like pastor Frank. Gives me an understanding that lots of Christians are hypocrites. I’m 25 y.o and as I’m getting older I’m starting to see the truth. As it says “the truth shall set you free”. Funny how some of these Christians end up falling on their backside. The real teachers of the word preach from the heart and soul, love - not money or power. Rest in Peace pappa Frank. Still haven’t forgotten what you said many years ago.

    By Adam Licari on Feb 24, 2008

  16. It is my view that New Testament prophets never operated under an Old Testament mantle….

    New Testament prophets only prophesy to confirm what the Holy Spirit has already revealed to you….they do not foretell….

    By Paul on Mar 11, 2008

  17. Hi Paul,
    On what scriptural passages in the NT do you base this idea? Surely the one who prophesies as moved by the Holy Spirit must do so as the voice of God, a very solemn responsibility.
    In what ways do you consider NT prophesying different from this activity under the Old Covenant, based on the NT passages you use?
    ……………… a small potato

    By Paul on Mar 11, 2008

  18. Hi Ya…the distinction between OT Prophets and NT Prophets..

    Prophets of Guidance….
    OT prophets were used especially in the realm of guidance, direction and enquiry of the mind and will of God…

    People went to the prophet for such..no NT prophet was ever used in guidance and control of another person’s life…they were used ito CONFIRM..the already known and revealed will of God…

    But, for NT believers, “as many are led by the spirit of God (not by a prophet), they are the sons of God” (Romans 8:14)

    To resort to a prophet for direction, guidance or control … is to violate the privilege of New Covenant believers of having access and approach to God through Christ by the spirit..

    By Paul on Mar 14, 2008

  19. Paul - re New Covenant prophecy :
    I must admit I’ve heard this teaching many times over the years & am now more unclear on prophesying than ever before. What passages of scripture do you base your understanding on re this?
    (As I read the portion of NT times history recorded in the Book of Acts I notice that prophets did indeed give guidance, direction, and revealing of the will of God in their role.)
    I have had some personal prophecies ‘over me’ and some that I think were just nice words to say by persons who thought they needed to show they were ‘flowing in the Spirit’ at the time. I’m not averse to the Lord graciously speaking to people through these avenues but these days I am sceptical of what it is, who may do it, what is it’s purpose, what is it’s degree of authority, should we audio-record these messages and retain & refer to them?
    I’m not satisfied with the common Evangelical answer that prophecy today is inspired preaching. That concept relies on a theological rationalism that discounts the divine pneumatic activity of wondrous acts that occur throughout the world each day. (And I do accept that some preaching, with all its hours of preparation in prayer, Bible study & research, is indeed prophetic.)
    It is an interesting conversation to have.
    Paul…… a small potato

    By Paul on Apr 21, 2008

  20. Praise the Lord

    I, Rev. Suleman Waheed living in Pakistan and working for the Great word of GOD. I am a senior pastor and Founder of Soul Saving Ministers in Pakistan. We are working for our Christian community in slum areas and help them for there various problem by the grace of GOD. He is the only King who provides us and using us for His great work.

    Praise the Lord
    We are made for His Work. We are living in a None Christian Country and their people need to know about JESUS CHRIST. But because of there illness and financial problem they cannot give attention to the GOD. But …
    Halleluiah, He is our Savior. God helps us to do help them. This is our duty to do work for poor and needy Christian people. We are working and preach them Salvation to come to JESUS.

    I am writing to you please pray for our Ministry and the great work of GOD that He provide us more blessings and we would be able to help them self.
    Pray for Church Building.
    Pray for Youth Education.
    Pray for Poor Children Education fees.
    Pray for Christian Jobs.
    Pray for Christian Girls and women.
    Pray for Christian Marriages.
    Pray for Medical services.
    Pray for Media Ministry.
    Pray for Crusades.
    Pray for Distribution of Food and Goods to poor people.
    Pray for …………….

    Rev Suleman Waheed.

    By Rev Suleman Waheed on May 13, 2008

  21. The account of DN’s honour of Frank Houston is not scripturally correct. A young King David, honours a fallen King Saul, both anointed with power.

    David refuses opportunities to kill Saul, and later after the sad ending of Saul family, David brings into his palace a boy from Saul’s lineage and keeps him well.

    Also in an epistle, it is foretold that in the last days, people will bring insults against heavenly beings.

    I hold that like King David, Frank Houston repented from sexual immorality and the abuse of trust.

    I discerned the Holy Spirit in his concepts for certain. I was a member in his church from 1997-1999. There were discernable prophetic words, interpretations of tongues, words of knowledge, secret questions answered, authority and good works. In accordance with the scriptures.

    Compassion, encouragement, insight, answers.

    Secret thoughts revealed. Were it not for this, I would not be born again, in accordance with John ch 3.

    The practices of Frank and his church, were similar to John Wesley’s, and Jonathon Edwards, and also John Arnott’s.

    Pity about Franks’ fall, many now miss the benefits, since they like a just reputation and dislike injustice, and think he acted.

    I assure the readers, Pastor Frank whatever sins he committed, also repented, sought God’s presence and love, prayed as a just man, and gave Holy Spirited messages timely and with passion each week.

    His vision statement is still available, and the basis for Hillsong, and many other “contemporary” style churches.

    I hope you can accept that Frank was something of a Mary who was kept from stoning. Who turned and loved Jesus, and prayed and served Jesus and the apostles.

    By Novatian on May 31, 2008

  22. I was at True Vine in the early 80’s. It is a time I reflect on fondly. My communion with God is more nature-based and less humanly these days. Sometimes I can break out into a guitar-led worship-zone of rememberings. That’s what I gained from the True Vine experience, an understanding of worship, meaning-making and sustainable peace. It was an interesting community of practice at the time,defining rules of belonging that engaged very eclectic individuals. Everybody interrogated themselves about many things. These are the positive forces that I reflect on. Cheers to all of that era, love Sally Baker

    By Sally Baker on Jul 4, 2008

  23. Regardless of what any of us may think about Frank Houston or his alleged actions (of which he was never criminally convicted):

    IT IS WRONG TO SPEAK ILL OF THE DECEASED…….

    Whatever happened to ‘innocent until proven guilty’? Frank Houston was never proven guilty.

    For all those who condemn Frank Houston, remember Jesus said “take the plank out of your own eye before you take the speck out of another’s”. And also “with the measure we Judge others will be the same measure we are judged by”

    Frank Houston did far more in Australia, and the world, than most Christians ever do — so stop mocking and get of your lazy backsides and do something for God in your life.

    I honour and respect what God did through this man and so should all who claim to be Christians.

    By ben on Jul 6, 2008

  24. Sally,
    Blessings , great to read your note.
    ..
    Ben,
    He admitted to it, after being confronted by his son, Brian, and was expelled from A/G ministry.
    .. & the Lord did use him despite his hidden sins, not something to emulate.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jul 11, 2008

  25. Ben,

    You have to be joking!!!!!

    By Wayne Capell on Jul 12, 2008

  26. So many Christians are so twisted these days. No charges were laid against Frank… because Brian did not do as the law required, and immediately inform the police. All the discussions about Apostles, preachers, gifts and all that are of little value in light of this … it’s by someone’s fruit that you shall know them. I was heavily involved in a number of AOG church plants in the late 80’s and early 90’s and, having been in the pentecostal movement in the 1970’s and 80’s in NZ, had met Frank Houston a number of times. He was a nice guy as are the majority of pedophiles. Thankfully I studied theology at a non-denominational bible college and it certainly showed me how screwed pentecostal faith is and how unscrewed God is.
    It’s not your works, worship and religious behavior that defines you - it’s who you are and how you live out your life. Tragically I don’t think that the day that the church gets it right [and is truly real] will ever happen - where every word that comes from the mouth behind the pulpit comes from the mouth of God… I don’t think so. God gave you a brain and free will, use it.

    By Jackie on Jan 30, 2009

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  28. Similar to Frank Houston, Dr Mark Laaser was a pastor/ counselor who struggled with undealt issues of sexual brokenness.

    After spending time to receive counseling and healing in the area of his woundedness in sexual areas, he now has a ministry to others who struggle with sexual addictions. His testimony is mentioned in this article he wrote: http://www.ecounseling.com/articles/394

    Today, I just realized that Frank Houston, Pastor Brian Houston’s father, struggled with pedophilia and had molested young men.

    Many parishioners fell spiritually because they were discouraged by his actions. However, I believe that this shows that there is still room for more sexual healing organizations. In an age, when everyone is bombarded with sexual temptations, the message of healing for sexual brokenness is ever more important.

    Is it easy to come out of an addiction? It is definitely not just a matter asserting will-power. The truth will set one free, however. Counseling, digging up and dealing with woundedness that makes one susceptible to certain temptations and helping the person understand themselves is essential to healing.

    It is not a matter of “I will force myself not to do what is wrong” without dealing with the roots of the problem. It is just like covering up a physical wound and pretending that it is not there. As if forcing oneself not to think of it can make it go away. It will not, and it cannot—in fact the wound would fester and breed more ‘germs’ if untended!

    There is healing for pedophiles and homosexuals… there is healing to overcome the strong urge to do something unnatural… But, one has to face one’s own woundedness, uncover the wound, clean the wound, apply medication repeatedly, wrap up the wound and protect it from further contamination, and give it time to heal.

    By Lilian Yap Hsu on Apr 5, 2009

  29. Let’s not gloss things over with physcobabble, this former pastor didn’t “struggle with undealt issues of sexual brokenness”. He SINNED. Frank Houston didn’t “struggle with Pedophilia” - he was a filthy pedophile targeting young, innocent people in his care. However, if any parishioners fell spiritually because of another’s behaviour then I would say their faith was in that person, and not in the saving grace of Jesus Christ - because nothing anyone could or would do would sway my firm faith in Christ.

    These people do not need healing for sexual brokenness. They need to REPENT of THEIR SIN. How is the person understanding themselves essential to healing? The only way to be healed is through faith in Christ, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and adherence to God’s word. 2 Tim 3:16-17 says “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

    When a Christian sins it is not by design and planning as with these men, it is a momentary lapse and the person is grieved and repentant.
    To overcome sin and depravity you need to call it what it is not muddy the waters with terms like brokenness and woundedness. People in these situations need to fall on their face before almighty God and beg his forgiveness for their perverted ways, not get to know themselves better.

    I firmly believe in the saying “If God hasn’t changed you, he hasn’t saved you”. Let’s stick with facts and call it like it is, the problem with a lot of Christians today is that they are so afraid of offending anyone with the truth, yet they don’t seem worried about offending our Lord and Saviour by perverting and/or ignoring his word and instruction on dealing with life’s issues. We should be in earnest prayer for people such as these that they would come to know Christ and be filled with the Holy Spirit so they can live godly lives, pleasing to our Lord.

    By Pearl on Apr 6, 2009

  30. Dear Pastor ,

    My name is Rev. Kellam Nyongesa. I am a pastor and am pastoring a congregation of about 150 people and overseeing 27 other churches in Kenya, Africa. I happened to come across your contact on the web and was greatly touched and ministered to as I read through your Mission, God bless you great for obeying his Voice to minister this kind of healing to the Body of Christ. Would you please pray with us about the possibility of Coming to Africa some day if the Lord allows and maybe do some ministry in this area?

    Our Postal address is;-

    Webuye God’s Grace Church,

    P.O.Box 682 ,

    Webuye 50205 ,

    Kenya East Africa

    Phone +254 735 899 252.

    God bless you and keep you.

    Rev.Kellam & Pst.Rose Nyongesa

    By Rev.Kellam Nyongesa on Apr 9, 2009

  31. I was also a 23 year old `house leader’ in the True Vine community in the 80’s. I clearly remember that pastor Frank’s response to the bewilderment and distress being suffered by three hundred good souls who found their whole world caving in was to send a video of himself spouting nonsense. This act of spiritual guidance was only surpassed by the arrival of two Christian Life Centre charlatans (from Sydney) who conducted the last True Vine meeting that I attended. The most truly shameful act that I witnessed done in the name of God. The single mother screaming as `demons’ were being delivered out of her as her young children watched is my most vivid memory. I left and went to the pub for the next 20 years. Peace and love to all survivors. Paul S.

    By Paul S on Apr 22, 2009

  32. Deliverance Ministry with screaming is not nice, or caring, blunt power. Yes, it could have turned me away too. Thankfully my basis for commitment was all by myself, with Jesus in repentance when I was 18. Frank Houston was an encouragement to me though.

    I don’t believe he struggled with sexual sin, I think he overcame, otherwise all the others could not have overcome. So for years and years he was clear like Mary Magdalene. But maybe should not have been a Bishop.

    Everyone must have some ministry as in Corinthians 12…

    Our Pentecostal theology, why criticize it? Where is a link explaining?

    Paul the apostle wanted the Gospel preached even from false motives, as against himself. Let the Magdalene like be held believeable

    Did Frank truly repent from the heart, and receive power over sin and Satan?

    By Novatian on Apr 25, 2009

  33. There is no grab that I can grip in your comment Novation. Just as there is no defence for the indefensible.

    By Paul S on Apr 27, 2009

  34. Paul S, this is a Christian not military issue. Look at the Bible references, tell me what you think, such as Jesus defenses as with Mary M. And please use the Bible concerning Biblical, Christian, will of God not man issues. Otherwise your view is of men not God.

    I want to pay attention to God regarding God and not men. Cricket is different.

    I attend church and hear points weighted by verses and testimonies.

    By Novatian on Apr 29, 2009

  35. We are sons and daughters, Danny N according to the real Christian experience of Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6, is called “son” and calls God “dad” or “abba father”.

    I hope people will forgive the late pastor (Houston), for it is hard. But if we forgive, we are free from being bound hand to neck. And Jesus forgave as an example to us. Please forgive him and any of us, who seemed to not to care. I am sure we all believe that God is just and merciful in balance and He will deliver discipline or has.

    It is not good for there to be “us and them” among sinners. We all admire Jesus and He does not reject people. James wrote that must not discriminate. All sit on seats in church. Jesus died “the just for the unjust” He saves all. Matthew 9:13.

    People try to turn some away, and confess and think they have their way, but Jesus wants all evangelized. I didn’t like this being done to me, so now and others too may, demand an apology.

    Forgiveness should have been asked for before the offering was made. Matthew 5:23-24.

    The cross of Christ is for redemption indiscriminately. And restoration of grace and honour and justice, love… with Jesus’ perfection for our brokenness… Justified by faith not works. And reconciliation between enemies. Jesus fills all the holes.

    By Novatian on May 3, 2009

  36. A self-proclaimed man of God and self-confessed pederast. You’re right Novation, it’s just not cricket

    By Paul S on May 6, 2009

  37. I did not understand “indefensible” yes the action was a terrible injustice. Yes I would not defend the action.

    Biblically, 1 Corinthians 6-7 and the Gospel show it unclean, unholy, against the history of the body. I hope for the best recovery for the victim. And vindication in Christ.

    God’s grace is great, for all redeeming and restorations.

    Please forgive me if I was unclear or unjust.

    By Novatian on May 25, 2009

  38. Peace, Novation, I’m just a voice. I have no right nor wish to stand in judgement over you. Would it be that there were more like you with the ability to take a step back. The church would be a much healthier place.

    By Paul S on May 28, 2009

  39. Frank Houston was a very sad case. Given an honorary doctorate in the 1980s the title was paraded as if he’d achieved that level of academic expertise - in Australia the ‘Dr’ title is never used by recipients of honorary doctorates.
    Given a nickname “the Bishop” some of his followers treated him as if he was a spiritual super-man.
    Earning many 10s of thousands of dollars yearly in “tax-free” love offerings, he didn’t contribute to the nation financially through paying extra tax, a share of this lucre he’d gained in addition to his church salary.
    These in addition to regular “flirtations” detailed in the above posts.
    .

    It all highlights how poorly-developed is the ethical system of so many Christians. Because they haven’t diligently studied the whole New Testament, but have only focused on the “God will bless me” Scripture passages, the result is a startling ignorance of the divine wisdom, counsel and ethical foundation.
    .
    And what legacy is now in Frank’s family? One of Frank’s sons preaches a message indicating the idea that we can serve God and mammon, and he’s become a millionaire-preacher by preaching motivational messages with a Bible verse thrown in. This son’s 3 sons are now preachers too, apparently. It’s a worry.

    By Paul, a small potato on May 28, 2009

  40. Psalm 40, of the word of God, is excellent here. Together with the Gospel passages about ones who have not sinned casting the first stone, and the sinners coming ahead of the just to be baptized by John.

    I am sure that Frank, whose deservance of honour was impacted with great negativity, by gross sin, that he repented, people, the wicked, really do turn from sin. I am sure he fought sin. It makes one humble to fight sin.

    Then as in Psalm 40, others say “aha, aha” and mock the idea one with faulterings could possibly have a revelation and experience of God’s love and truth. The idea one should listen to him is ridiculous, but worthily, for all time the Psalmist and David as well show His love and teach us His truths.

    Our struggle is with sin, Jesus came from the 99 for the lost 1. It is much about sin and the power is to save the preacher and the sinners who hears.

    May God show you your withered arm, and flood you with healing love and fill you thoughts with truths, to the Father, in Jesus name, amen.

    By Novatian on Jan 28, 2010

  41. I agree with Pearl. There are too many “Christians” pussy-footing around trying not to offend people but in the act they are OFFENDING GOD and the precious Holy Spirit. Why do you think that so many prayers go unanswered? Sin is sin - and we need to repent DAILY for our sins, we need to fall on our faces and be broken before God on an ongoing basis. This is why God called David a man after His own heart, because David recognised his sin and repented daily.

    Prophets spoke the word given to them by God regardless of how it offended the people. Most of them died because of this. Being a Prophet means that you speak what God tells you to speak - and it is always backed up by scripture. It does not add to Scriptue but exemplifies what God has already said.

    By Elizabeth on Feb 9, 2010

  42. Part of a sermon outline on our manner of speaking to one another, may be useful here

    I. DIFFERENT TYPES OF TALKERS

    A. THE IRREVERENT…
    1. Who use the Lord’s name in vain - Exo 20:7
    2. That is, without an attitude of sincere respect
    3. One can be guilty of this in two ways:
    a. Using the Lord’s name in swearing or cursing
    b. Using vain repetitions of His name carelessly
    c. Applies also to the name of Jesus, for His name is to be held in honor - Php 2:9-11
    — Common in everyday speech, especially in entertainment

    B. THE EVIL…
    1. Speaking words that are evil - 1Pe 3:10
    a. Lying words - Pr 6:19
    b. Deceitful words - Ro 16:18
    c. Filthy words - Ep 5:4
    2. Speaking evil of others - 1Co 6:9-10 (revilers)
    a. Those in authority - Exo 22:28; Jude 8
    b. Those around us - Mt 5:21-22
    — Common in everyday speech, especially in business and politics

    C. THE CARELESS…
    1. The overuse of words
    a. Speaking too often - Jm 1:26; Pr 10:19
    b. Speaking too hastily - Pr 29:20; cf. Jm 1:19
    2. The misuse of words
    a. Flattery - Ps 12:1-4; cf. Ro 16:18
    b. Rash oaths - Mt 5:33-37; Jm 5:12
    c. Unwholesome words - Ep 4:29
    3. Including euphemisms
    a. An inoffensive expression substituted for one considered offensive
    b. Some examples (darn, shoot, gosh, gee)
    c. What is wrong with such expressions?
    1) They mean the same thing as the more offensive words
    2) It is the same wrongful emotions behind the euphemism or its equivalent
    3) They reflect an attitude contrary to the spirit of Christian conduct - cf. Ep 4:31-32
    — Common in everyday speech, even among many Christians

    E. THE GRACIOUS…
    1. Whose speech leads to edification
    a. That which encourages and builds up - Ep 4:29
    b. That which extends grace to others - cf. Col 4:6
    2. Whose speech expresses thankfulness
    a. Which is fitting saints - Ep 5:3-4
    b. An attitude of gratitude befits saints - Col 1:12; 2:7; 3:15,17; 4:2
    c. Not befitting saints is complaining - Php 2:14
    — Uncommon in everyday speech, but should be common among Christians!

    [Why aspire to become the gracious talkers God wants us to be? Besides being judged by our words in the day of judgment (Mt 12:36-37), consider some more reasons for the…]

    II. IMPORTANCE OF PROPER TALKING

    A. WORDS REVEAL OUR HEARTS…
    1. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks - Mt 12:34
    2. Speech reveals the sort of treasure stored in our heart - Mt 12:35
    — Have you considered what your words reveal about you?

    B. WORDS OFTEN HURT OTHERS…
    1. Lying and flattery can be destructive - Pr 26:28
    2. Gossip creates strife, destroys friendships - Pr 16:27-28; 17:9
    3. Neighborly relations can be destroyed - Pr 11:9
    4. The tongue can indeed be a destructive fire and a powerful poison - Jm 3:5-8
    — Contra the childhood ditty, “Sticks and stones…”, words can hurt!

    C. WORDS CAN BLESS OTHERS….
    1. By cooling down heated conversations - Pr 15:1
    2. By comforting the anxious - Pr 12:25; 16:24
    3. By delighting those who hear - Pr 15:4,23; 25:11
    3. By offering grace to the hearers - Ep 4:29; Col 4:6
    — Do our words impart grace to the hearers?

    [The potential for much harm but also much good should encourage us to take our speech seriously. With that in mind, here are some…]

    III. STEPS TO BETTER TALKING

    A. GUARD YOUR HEART…
    1. “For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” - Mt 12:34-35
    2. “Keep your heart with all diligence, For out of it spring the issues of life.” - Pr 4:23
    3. “The heart of the wise teaches his mouth, and adds learning to his lips.” - Pr 16:23
    4. As often said today, “Garbage in, garbage out.”
    — Be careful what you allow into your heart and mind

    B. GUARD YOUR LIPS…
    1. “He who guards his mouth preserves his life, but he who opens wide his lips shall have destruction.” - Pr 13:3
    2. “Whoever guards his mouth and tongue keeps his soul from troubles.” - Pr 21:23
    3. “Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth…” - Ep 4:29
    — Be careful what you allow to come out of your mouth

    C. THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK…
    “The heart of the righteous studies how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours forth evil.” - Pr 15:28

    — Give thought as to the consequences of what you say before you say it

    D. PRAY ABOUT YOUR SPEECH…
    1. “Set a guard, O LORD, over my mouth; keep watch over the door of my lips.” - Ps 141:3
    2. “Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my strength and my Redeemer.”
    - Ps 19:14
    — Pray that the Lord help you to speak with grace and kindness to others

    CONCLUSION

    We should never forget the power of speech…
    a. To hurt others, to hurt ourselves
    b. To bless others, to bring glory to God

    ……………

    What’s that passage again about us making sure our communications are seasoned, as salt is ?

    By Paul, a small potato on Feb 13, 2010

  43. When a person receives Jesus, they are accounted as righteous. “If we sin, we have one that intercedes on our behalf”, Jesus. Change is gradual, but before change if ones dies, is he/she saved?

    Can we go back and forth from son of God to son of Satan?

    Covered in Jesus’ blood God sees Jesus’ righteousness, or justice.

    I think you are self-righteous, not seeing from Jesus’ view.

    By Novatian on Feb 18, 2010

  44. Hi.
    I found your Web Site by Google
    And I wish you the best you can get,
    the peace of God through Jesus Christ.

    You are welcome to visit my Site.
    Allan Svensson, Sweden
    www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/INDEX.HTM

    The Bridegroom comes, Come out to meet him. Matt. 25:6.
    From where shall we go out? We shall go out of the great
    Babylon, the great whore. Rev. Chapter 17 and 18. This
    command of the Lord in Rev. 18:4 is now highly topical.

    Never before we have been so nearly Jesus’ coming as we
    are now, but how are God’s people prepared? How is the
    unity in the faith? Sorry, very bad! God’s people are more
    divided now than ever before. Instead of following what
    the Bible teaches about the Assembly of God, they have
    followed Satan’s false assembly doctrine. They believe
    that the Assembly of God is constituted of church systems
    and many religious organizations.

    Most Christians have not yet begun to prepare for Jesus’
    coming. They can speak and write that Jesus shall come,
    and about the signs of the time, yet they do not make any
    preparation to meet Jesus. How can we make a preparation?
    To make preparation and be ready for Jesus’ coming, God’s
    people must get the knowledge of the Assembly of God.

    All God’s people must in the first hand begin to study what
    the Bible teaches about the Assembly of God. What we
    need now before the restoration of the Assembly of God,
    it is humility before God’s word and a forgivable disposition
    to each other.

    The Assembly of God is no Pentecostal church. Please,
    consider what this expression “the Assembly of God” in the
    reality implies. The Assembly of God must be the same as
    the Greek word “ekklesia”, and the Body of Christ. 1 Cor.
    12:12-31. Then it is easy to understand that this has nothing
    to do with the Pentecostal Movement. Pentecostal churches
    have existed about 100 years, but the Assembly of God has
    ever existed since Jesus baptized his first disciples by the
    Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gave them the new life in Christ
    so that they became born anew. Then the Assembly of God
    was born.

    The Bridegroom comes, Come out to meet him
    www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/CRY.HTM

    Evil spirits in the churches
    www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/SPIRITS.HTM

    The great falling away
    www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/MESSAGE.HTM

    What does hinder the Antichrist to appear?
    What is the Restrainer?
    www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/MESSAGE.HTM#Antichrist

    KJV, “the best English Bible” but not perfect
    www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/KING.HTM

    Why did the Pentecostal Revival take an end?
    www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/CRISIS.HTM

    The truth of the baptism by the Holy Spirit and the new birth
    www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/CRISIS.HTM#baptism

    Jesus cannot come today because God’s people are not ready
    http://www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/TODAY.HTM

    By Allan Svensson on Mar 25, 2010

  45. That’s an interesting view on the phrase “Assembly of God” - though I don’t think too many people have used it that way to represent the regenerate believers throughout the New Covenant era. To most people “Church of Christ” and “Church of God” would convey the same meaning [although there are also some denominations and non-denominations who use these as their brand names].
    There was a time when holiness was a driving motivation within Pentecostal churches such as AoG generally, and many people within them were truly full with the Holy Spirit. Being refilled regularly [’topped-up’] was normal to the life - as per New Testament teaching.
    Now many seem addicted to the ‘rush’ from ‘the Baptism’, a visiting speaker’s exotic take on some subject, the ‘new move’ [of the Holy Spirit] in such-&-such town, the excitement produced becomes contagious. Today in such churches believers living in all kinds of sinning states are being accommodated very comfortably as the focus is the show, the performance, the platform ministry - and very small attention is paid to actually doing the ‘one another’s commanded by our Lord and the apostles. The body of Christ is not healthy when parts are addicted to adrenalin,
    .
    Surely we need to reach out to each other and invite someone out to have a coffee or tea, or lunch, and over months build the kind of trust that can enable heart-level ministry. It’s amazing how we can function under the Spirit’s guidance when we’re not in it to impress anyone.
    You may even find that some “official members” are not yet saved, like I have recently found. This is an opportunity to lead them to saving faith, for they are clearly interested.
    A whole church being hospitable, building real friendship, encouraging [& challenging] one another is a healthy church, IMO.

    By Paul, a small potato on Apr 11, 2010

  46. I attended Frank Houston’s church and Bible college back in 1988-1990 and I remember a conversation I had with him and the hurt he caused by standing down a person wrongfully. I am not the same person spiritually because of him. He was no saint. As a child I too was sexually assaulted. It hurts me to think that Brian Houston never reported this to the Police. God may have used him, but he will always be remembered as a child molester in my eyes.

    By kellie miller on May 24, 2010

  47. I am concerned that Kellie says she is ‘not the same person spiritually’ because of F.Houston (now deceased). Also going back to a previous posting almost three years back, someone said much the same thing. What is it that seems to be able to damage folk coming out of the Houston camp I wonder? And don’t kid me that Brian H. encourages thousands to Salvation because this does not wash - mainly because it is boasting - and secondly because the Day of Salvation is a future event and not one in the past.
    Kellie, could you perhaps share in what way you have changed, and can you remedy this in some way?

    By Abraham on May 24, 2010

  48. What did you mean by “standing someone down”?

    Is it possible to remember Frank according to what Jesus intended him to be, and consider what he has been made since dying? We are not our actions, our sins or our business.

    What I see looks like anger which has never been let go of in forgiveness , which is the consequence of not saying sorry as openly as the injustice was open.

    So Brian should have reported this to the police? Didn’t he? What would it have done? How can it hurt that he didn’t? What can the police do? Frank not suffering makes some people hurt? Why so?

    By Novatian on Jul 21, 2010

  49. Novatian,
    No, Brian Houston did not report this confession by his father, to the police. Every pastor is in a place of trust in their community. They are also required by law in Australia to report cases of abuse or cases where they genuinely suspect abuse - this is mandated of them, and over-rides the requirement for confidentiality. Brian has no excuse for not reporting this to the NSW Police whose duty is to contact the NZ Police regarding Brian’s father’s abuse of at least one minor in NZ some decades before.
    .
    Is forgiveness available? Yes, absolutely.
    .
    Should justice be an ongoing concern for action by all Christians? Yes, absolutely.
    .
    How would you feel if you had been violated as a young person by your pastor, Novatian, only to see those who knew cover it up (’sweep it under the carpet’ so to speak) even though they could have done something about it? Put yourself in the victim’s place and consider the impact of that betrayal both through the perpetrator’s evil behaviour and through the lack of action in bringing him to justice by those who covered it up. This is not how members of the body of Christ should function.
    .
    So what good would it have done to bring these evil deeds to the light?
    For one it would have supported the victim and the burden they carry. And for another it would have shown all that the Pentecostal Christians in Australia value purity, holiness & truth more highly than covering up a mate’s sins.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jul 21, 2010

  50. Paul, Brian expelled Frank from ministry, that is his responsibility. Tough deal. Paul the apostle dealt with sexual sins without the pagan authorities. Ours are based on the Gospel and Moses, not paganism, but are not designed for church. That is, thirty years on. For this victim brother had many opportunities, hundreds. It must have been hard, complex in shame…

    The police and judges have no defined understanding, as I know but a little of law, to help anyone in these situations. It is not known if the victim saw it as help, or revenge, or divine exactings…

    Hazel Houston is the one who did not act, it may be, and I think no one else knew.

    No Pentecostal pastors knew and covered up the sins, true?

    Jesus paid the prices of victims and victimizers. The law is there to protect and warn - punishment as pay back, could serve God too - and then they have some of their discipline, should lead to justice at heart and peace. Not continual sorrow. Sorrow has its place, not life long.

    Forgiveness is available, yes. Frank, according to the Gospel, should have made peace with the young man before he made his sacrifices on the altar. Matthew chapter 5:23.

    The answer is receiving Jesus blood for both. The young man may have missed his needs. The Heavenly Father knows all loss and restorations.

    There is justice and saving justice. If caught early, the long arm of the law could rebuke and enforce judgement, even save minutes of humiliation. Concern and worry and anger, according to Matthew 6 and James Epistle, don’t serve God’s just purposes.

    Yes we should protect and warn… but I am not sure how effective it is for divine purposes. I don’t know what I would do if I was Frank at 80 years. I think rather than ask for a Justice of the Peace judgment, I would ask belated forgiveness and pray for him.

    Near death experiencers mention the love, that shame is overwhelmed with love from God, and God calls them to see people in a new light of eternity and love. As coming out of various victimizations myself, it is so hard to live a step into it. I suffer nightmares.

    One NDE showed a man Hell, before Heaven, Ian McCormack, youtube and ws a glimpse of eternity. What we deserve and later get. If I can only put my soul’s hands on Jesus’ ankles instead of my adversary’s necks.

    Once washed in Jesus blood, the guilt is gone. Jesus sees as differently, not as sinners, salvation in the heart expresses the true person, in surrender. Jesus not Satan defines us. I am the righteousness or justice of God in Christ 2 Cor 5:21.

    State law could even be an obstacle to this, and there are hate campaigners who are false Christians - and one who calls Frank and Brian, “sickos” with horrible music…

    I refer to Psalm 40, David “my sins are numerous like the hairs on my head.” And “I will not with hold your truth and love from the assembly.” “May those who say ‘Aha, aha’ be put to shame at their own sins.” Alike Jesus with the woman who was to be stoned. “Deliverer”.

    David was delivered, sinned again in Psalm 51, and was disciplined by God severely that we shall not blaspheme.

    Also Saint Peter, said “Get away from me Lord, I am a sinful man.” But Jesus pressed him to come with him. It was after Peter denied Jesus three times that Jesus asked him three times about his love for Jesus. And mentioned feeding His sheep, sheep, and lambs. And of how he must die in pain.

    The Gospel addresses such as children on whom Jesus put His hands on to give them the Holy Spirit, and Nicodemus a just man. And sick people, known to sin, demoniacs, Samaritans with living water. And hypocrites who were condemned, Roman soldiers who despite killing Jesus were forgiven. Mostly to sinners. The New Testament was largely written by Paul, who killed Stephen, that is administrated it. Written often from prison.

    I think Frank’s sermons should still be in print.

    Moses also struggled with anger, killing an Egyptian and striking the rock to produce water in the wilderness, instead of speaking to it. For which he never entered the promised land.

    All Christian traditions hold that God repays, not as our sins deserve. Catholics think there is purgatory. Evil ones believe in God but instead of love or saving justice, have witch hunts, justice/rage, and like the idea of Hell.

    I believe in Jesus, justice balanced with mercy, love, sight from that and eternity.

    By Novatian on Jul 22, 2010

  51. Re the cover-up:
    You’re right, Hazel knew. Frank’s extended family knew also (I know some of them personally) when Frank’s nuclear family moved from NZ to Australia in the 70s - so it is very unlikely that Brian didn’t know at that time. The AoG hierarchy in NZ knew. So it is clear that some Pentecostal pastors did know, and covered up the sin.
    .
    Time moves into the 80s and Frank re-offends - this time not with a minor, but with a trainee pastor who was “disciplined” in a sexual and inappropriate way. That mistreated man did complain to pastors at Christian Life Centre in Sydney city - and I was told in Hills CLC that [name] was making trouble for Frank in the city at that time without any details being shared. Information was always sanitised before being shared with leaders in the pre-Hillsong Church (is it still?) - and despite that ’spin’ the sins were still sin - and yes, it is a messy and multi-faceted issue.
    .
    I hope you never have someone close to you suffer in this type of way. It certainly would make you desire justice to be administered - not revenge, just justice. We are not wise to follow a doctrine of ‘cheap grace’.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jul 22, 2010

  52. Over 20 years ago John Piper preached a series on the Pleasures of God. The matter of understanding what pleases God should be of concern to every person who lives. I’ve pasted the sermon on His Pleasure regarding public justice just below, as it is relevant to this discussion…..
    .
    Copyright ©1987, 1996 John Piper

    “THE PLEASURE OF GOD IN PUBLIC JUSTICE”

    Proverbs 11:1

    “A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, but a just weight is his delight.

    We have been moving from the inside to the outside of life in the last three weeks. God takes pleasure in those who hope in his love. God delights in the prayers of the upright. God delights in obedience much more than in sacrifice. Hope is deepest within. It expresses itself in prayer. And then the obedience we spoke of is out in the open. But so far we have confined ourselves mainly to what you might call the religious part of life.

    Today we move out one last step to that part of life which is not ordinarily considered religious. You might call it the “secular” part of your life, meaning the part where you have ordinary dealings with the world. You might call it the business part of your life. It includes things like filling up your gas tank and buying antiques and punching a time card and paying your taxes.

    Does God have an interest in this part of your life? Does he take delight in the way you do things at the store or the office or the shop or the kitchen? Is any wrong behavior in these non-religious areas so significant that God would even call them an abomination?

    With this concern we have moved out just about as far as we can go: from hope to prayer to general obedience to non-religious, business life. But there is one more step we could take, and I want to take it today. We could ask, Does God have any delight in the behavior of non-Christian people in the non-religious areas of life?

    So we really have two areas to examine before us today: the non-religious, business life of Christians and the non-religious, business life of non-Christians. Does God take delight in any or all of this life? If so why?

    The aim, as always, is to clarify the character and nature of God by examining what he loves (remember Henry Scougal’s quote! “The worth of a soul is measured by the object of its love”). But I know that this message will also carry much practical counsel for your daily lives, and so I hope that you will listen for both things.

    First of all, let’s take both areas together and simply ask what sorts of things are included in our text, Proverbs 11:1. The verse doesn’t say whether only believers or also unbelievers are in view. It simply says,

    A false balance is an abomination to the LORD,
    but a just weight is his delight.

    The implications here are very far-reaching. But let’s get the specific picture clear in our minds. Suppose you were a merchant in the Old Testament times and you sold corn meal. And suppose that in those days ten cents a pound was a fair price. Someone comes to you and asks to buy five pounds of corn meal. So you reach for your five pound stone and place it in the dish on one side of the scales. Then you take your big bag of meal and start pouring it into the dish on the other side of the scale. You pour until the two dishes swing at the same level. Then you pour the dish full of meal into your customer’s container, and he knows that he has been given the right amount of grain. The size of a five pound stone is fairly common knowledge.

    But then suppose that during the night you took a very sharp, hard blade and dug a small hole in the side of the stone and worked it around hollowing out the inside until it weighed only four pounds. Then you covered the little hole over with clay the same color as the stone and let it dry. The next day you don’t use it on the educated and strong because they might make a fuss over the apparently smaller pile of meal and might even examine the stone. But when the child comes on behalf of his mother, and when the widow who is partially blind comes to buy meal, you use your deceitful stone.

    Our text says that this is an abomination to the Lord, but that the full weight is his delight.

    Now what sorts of acts in the 1980’s are implied in the phrase, “false balances” in Proverbs 11:1? Let me just mention four categories , which are really two different ways of dividing the acts into two categories.

    First, this verse refers to sellers and it refers to buyers:

    1. It includes acts of selling when the seller does not give goods or services worth the price or the fee that he is charging. You can imagine a gasoline pump that reads a penny more per gallon than it should, or a scale at the grocery store that reads high, or a medicine label that claims too much, or a Realtor who doesn’t tell a buyer about a flooding problem in the house he is selling or a college teacher who hasn’t written a new lecture in ten years and spends his time remodeling his basement.

    2. It includes acts of buying when the buyer schemes to pay less than the goods or services are really worth. You can see what God thinks of such an act in Proverbs 20:14 — “‘It is bad, it is bad,’ says the buyer; but when he goes away, then he boasts.” This would include paying some poor vendor in Mexico a ridiculously small sum for a quality rug he had made because he is desperate for a sale and you can take it or leave it. It would include not paying the late penalty on my water bill by dating my check back before the deadline.

    The other way to categorize the acts denounced in Proverbs 11:1 it refers to acts of deceit and it refers to acts of injustice.

    3. It includes acts that involve deceit in transactions with other people. And so the act expresses a lie. For example, in the next several days as you do your tax returns this verse has something very definite to say about whether your reporting is a delight to God or an abomination to God. Or you might file an insurance claim and lie about the extent of the damages in order to get a better settlement.

    4. And the other side of this is that such acts always do an injustice to another person. A person does not get what is his due. For example, you might stick a person with a lemon of a car by not being truthful about its condition when you sell it. Or you might rush a refugee family into signing a lease for an unseen apartment and charge them exorbitant rent and leave the apartment in poor condition with no improvements.

    So I hope you can see that all such things are implied in Proverbs 11:1, “A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, but a just weight is his delight.” You can be a deceitful seller or a deceitful buyer. And you can do and injustice to a buyer and you can do an injustice to a seller.

    One lesson to be learned from this already is that God has an interest in all our non-religious life. All our business transactions are his concern. God is not so distant or even so “religious” that he only cares about what happens at church and during devotions. Every square inch of this earth is his and every minute of our lives is a loan from his breath. He is much more secular than we often think.

    And of course this should make a big difference in the way we live our non-religious lives. Charles Bridges, an evangelical pastor in the Church of England a century ago, asks this searching question: “Is it not a solemn thought, that the eye of God marks all our common dealings of life, either as an abomination or a delight?” Test yourself. Are you being shaped more by the secular spirit of the world or by the spirit of God? The test is this: do you feel that minor business misrepresentations are just part of the game rules of the day or are they an abomination to God?

    Now I want to ask the question, Why is a just weight a delight to God in the hand of a believer? And then close by asking, Is a just weight a delight to God in the hand of an unbeliever? If so, Why?

    Why is a just weight a delight to God in the hand of a believer? God delights in just and honest dealings from believers because these dealings make their God-honoring faith visible. Just and honest dealings make the saving lordship of God visible. Let me show you one of the places where this is taught explicitly.

    In Leviticus 19:35-37 God gives instruction about just weights and balances, and he gives a motive.

    You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measures of length or weight or quantity. You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt. And you shall observe all my statutes and all my ordinances, and do them: I am the Lord.

    How is God motivating honesty and justice here? Notice three things in verse 36:

    First he says, “I am the LORD!” That is, “I am Yahweh!” He uses his personal name that he used to Moses just before he brought the people out of Egypt. And you remember he explained the meaning of that name by saying, “I am who I am.” The name implies absoluteness and independence and freedom and sovereignty.

    Second, he says, “I am your God!.” In other words, I am for you. I am on your side. My absoluteness and independence and freedom and sovereignty are yours. That is what it means if we can truly say, “Yahweh is my God!”

    Third, he says, “I brought you out of the land of Egypt.” This is the specific illustration that demonstrates once and for all for Israel that God is for them. He is their God. He is absolute and free and sovereign — not to destroy but to save his people. For Christians today the death and resurrection of Jesus — the second Exodus — has surpassed the first in value.

    Now what does all that have to do with the way you fill out your tax forms in the next two weeks? What does it have to do with just balances and honest weights?

    Verse 36 says, “You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and just hin: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt.” Surely the point is this:

    if you really know that God is the LORD — Yahweh, the absolute, independent, free and sovereign God of the universe;

    and if you trust him as YOUR GOD — that he is for you with all his power;

    and if your faith is established and encouraged by the great demonstration of God’s love in the Exodus (and the substitutionary death and victorious resurrection of Jesus!),

    then you will not need to fudge on your tax returns in order to make sure that you get the most happiness.

    You will believe that your omnipotent God has committed himself with all his absolute freedom and sovereign power to rescue you from Egypt and bring you to a land flowing with milk and honey and care for you every step of the way.

    That’s what I meant when I said that God delights in just and honest dealings from believers because these dealings make their faith visible. Just and honest dealings make the saving lordship and power of God visible. When a Christian acts with integrity instead of trying to get ahead with deceit, he demonstrates the power and love of the God of the Exodus.

    He says, I have a great God to take care of me!

    I have a Lord and Master who promises to meet all my needs according to his riches in Glory in Christ Jesus!

    I have a pillar of fire to guide me through dark times.

    I have a pillar of cloud to show me the way of joy in the day.

    I have a fountain of living water that never runs dry and always satisfies my thirst.

    How can I lie or deceive as though I were like men who trust in themselves and in their deceitful ingenuity to make a better life for themselves than God can make for me through the obedience of faith?

    Proverbs 20:17 says,

    Bread gained by deceit is sweet to a man,
    but afterward his mouth will be full of gravel.

    In other words when we use false balances or lie on our tax returns or misrepresent the facts in our dealings we are declaring that the fleeting sweetness of sin is more to be desired than the everlasting peace of God. This is no honor to God and therefore no delight to his heart. “A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, but a just weight is his delight.”

    Now what about unbelievers? There are unbelievers who order their business lives in honest and just ways. Is this a delight to God?

    The answer is no and yes, because God looks at the honesty of unbelievers in two different ways.

    When God looks at their honesty and justice as an outworking of their inner life of unbelief he does not delight in it because it is sin. Romans 14:23 says, “Whatever is not from faith is sin.”

    Honest unbelievers are like a rebellious teenage son who rejects his parents and everything they stand for, and goes to another city. But to make it in the real world, he decides to play by some of their rules. So he gets a job as a cook at a restaurant. Months later his parents happen to visit that city and go to that restaurant. Without knowing that he is there they order one of their favorite delights (call “just balances” or “honest scales”). And without knowing it their own son makes their meal. But back there in the kitchen he is as rebellious as ever. He is not doing it for their sake at all. And so even this act of fixing what they have ordered is an expression of rebellion. And if his parents could be told the truth, they would not rejoice and say, “Oh, how wonderful, our son is now a delight to us, because he made our favorite meal!”

    So God does not delight in the honesty and the justice of unbelievers when he sees it as an expression of their rebellious and unbelieving hearts. Acts done without any trust in his grace or any love for God’s glory are not a delight to God.

    But there is a sense in which God does delight in the just balances and honest weights of unbelievers, namely, when he looks at their honesty and justice as fragment of his own divine work.

    I get this from Proverbs 16:11.

    A just balance and scales are the Lord’s;
    all the weights in the bag are his work.

    I think this means that wherever you find just scales and a bag of honest weights you find the work of God. Justice is God’s creation. Honesty is God’s design. Integrity is the work of God — even in unbelievers; just like their head and heart and hands and feet are his work.

    Theologians call this common grace. It isn’t saving grace. It doesn’t get a man to heaven. It is the same grace that makes the sun come every day on the good and the evil and sends rain on the just and the unjust (Mt. 5:43-47). It is the grace that keeps a society from sinking into anarchy. And when God sees the work of his own common grace holding the world back from premature ruin, and giving at least some outward expression to his purposes of justice and honesty, he delights in what he sees.

    The honesty and justice of unbelievers is like a sea shell washed up on the beach. There’s no life in it. But it does have a kind of beauty. There is some sturdiness to it and symmetry and order. Life is more enjoyable because this shell exists. It has its uses: you could plant a flower in it; or you could use it to stud your rock wall, or you could teach things from it at school.

    So it is with the integrity of unbelievers. It is the leftover shell of holiness. The vestige of the image of God. The residue of something glorious and beautiful in the heart of God. And the very work of his grace preserving and keeping his fallen humanity back from the precipice of anarchy and chaos.

    And when God looks on the honesty and justice of his unbelieving and rebellious creatures in this way he delights in their justice and takes pleasure in their honesty. It is the work of his own hands, and the gift of his grace.

    Of all the lessons that we could draw out of these truths let me close with just one, and hope that you will make others to your own heart.

    Since external conformity of unbelievers to God’s designs of justice and honesty does in one way delight the heart of God, it was right of William Wilberforce to devote 20 years of his life in Parliament to the abolition of English slave trading, even though the great majority of those merchants who gave up the trade did it under constraint and not for any holy reasons at all. It was the work of God’s grace that rid England of the barbarisms of the African slave trade. And therefore the Lord looked down with delight February 22, 1807 when the House of Commons passed the decisive bill.

    He delighted most in the living power of holiness in the life of Wilberforce and Henry Thornton as they embraced one another and frolicked in the snow like schoolboys outside the chamber.

    And, in a different and mysterious way, God also delighted in the shell of holiness that took shape in English society when it was purged of the slave trade once and for all. For he delights in the work of his hands.

    John Wesley, the great evangelist wrote to Wilberforce to strengthen his hand in God. He said,

    Unless God has raised you up for this very thing, you will be worn out by the opposition of men and devils, but if God be for you who can be against you? Are all of them together stronger than God? Oh, be not weary in well-doing. . .

    There are battles to be fought today in America against manifold injustices and indecencies. May the Lord give us wisdom to know whether we are called to fight like Wesley or to fight like Wilberforce.

    …………………………………

    There is food to chew on.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jul 22, 2010

  53. Moses is referred to. Moses did learn something god those forty years in the wilderness before he saw the burning bush. He fled Egyptian justice. Perhaps you think NZ justice would have done more good for Frank than rebukes and prayers, meditations and Bible readings. Is prison helpful? I would say if he would be prevented from doing harm to someone, surely yes.

    Paul preached that he is pleased, that is from the Holy Spirit, if the Gospel is preached from false motive or true. More complex now. Because of very clever misuse, and heresy.

    If Frank was to cause harm, he should have gotten help. Perhaps he did. If no other way, he should have turned himself in to government counselors.

    Fair scales from Moses, David, Paul… They pleased God, yes they suffered for their unfair scales. Was prison or is prison comparable, or vindictive? And vindication is right.

    They were sinners at times.

    Ten thousand people received Christ because Frank preached. Your saying he should not have? Or from prison? And after?

    That would please God? I can see that protection, and warning from Christian judges is good, and leads to happiness. So Frank and maybe Brian, Hazel and anyone who knew, should have been punished? By courts? And Frank would come out repentant?

    Maybe. Maybe for the better? What the victim or victims thought may have been they were ashamed.

    I think it is best if the victim of abuse, calls the authorities straight away, and then comes a warning. Diligent. Now it is complex, Frank hid his sins, a practice from Timothy’s Epistle. Confessed in secret, and repented, and followed the Spirit of grace and led people to repentance and salvation. We did not see his suffering. It angers some. That he wasn’t labeled and rejected for life. Always sorry.

    He was not unlike David or Mary Magdalene or Paul.

    By Novatian on Jul 23, 2010

  54. Admittedly I have little hard evidence on this point, therefore it is pure conjecture - but - how do you measure claims being made by and on behalf of many preachers today, in the 21st. century - many such being soi-disant leaders and having never been ‘called’ - that ‘thousands’ have received Christ because of their ‘anointed ministry’? Why did Jesus say in Matt. 7:14 ‘few there are that find the narrow way to eternal life (in Him)’ Would anyone like to answer this, as I find that these claims cannot be measured until the Day of Salvation - they certainly have never been nor can they be based upon some spurious head-count. I personally believe that even biblical texts “and thousands believed on that day” always indicated a ‘mental assent’ and not heart conviction per sé. Whereas I am always convinced more fully of a binding salvation upon reading (for instance) “Repent and be baptized (water) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins & you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost (being distinctly baptized in Holy Spirit) Mind you, I’m probably completely wrong in my conjectures and everyone of such pastors, leaders, ministers & gospel preachers have been fully (a) born again (b) fully immersed into water baptism and (c) fully immersed into the Holy Spirit by a like baptism - with signs following. Thereby they are quite entitled to know and believe they have been called of God and evidence as appropriate some of the diverse gifts that the Apostle Paul clearly defines in scripture, and granted by Jesus Christ as Holy Spirit Baptizer - two of them being of course, ‘to preach’ &/or ‘to teach’ in Holy Ghost power. However, if anyone foolishly lies about this and make pretence they are ‘called of God’ to do this or that, then conversions might well be ‘insubstantial’ and will not stand the light of Christ on the Day of Salvation and Judgement. Yes, I do love my fellow men, yet I see the need of strong men of God in these the last days, being assuredly empowered by the Holy Spirit. This to counteract the increasing tempo of Apostasy in the church, which in turn is birthing false prophets, teachers and so-called preachers, who are to the discerning, preparing the way for the false prophet and ultimately, anti-Christ, and certainly not a global revival.

    By Abraham on Jul 23, 2010

  55. Head counts are not it, they who choose Christ have their convictions, fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 is the best evidence, but also other gifts like a word of knowledge, or at least the gift of praying in tongues.

    Reinhard Bonnke works in a team, and when at one time nine million heard him preach live and in open air, three million came forward for the altar call, by how the cards were filled, it was discerned one million by that time in that meeting had received Christ!

    Afterward they need grow in Christ likeness, and you can see their worship and enthusiasm, and they struggle with Muslim relatives, sometimes forced to go back, then take Christian counsel.

    Salvation involves presence, praise and prayer and the Bible, the Catholics argue Catechism is needed for years for real conversion, but I would say that while important it is sometimes just strong mental assent.

    People committing themselves to Jesus cannot be for the anti-Christ.

    According to the Bible, there must be a great conversion, before a great turning away.

    “The reaper overtakes the sower.” Amos 9:13, and “In the last days many will turn to follow false teachers”… 1 Tim 4:1.

    We have the power to discern before the day of salvation. The Bible mentions those do all their work and those who know to but only do part, and the beating the angels will give them. Luke 12:48.

    By Novatian on Jul 24, 2010

  56. These letters look like scriptural sword fights between a couple of people who ‘would be if they could be’. Obviously plenty of time on their hands. I just think why not find something useful to do instead of throwing scripture at each other, and all over things that most people couldn’t care less about.

    By Mike Deakin on Feb 17, 2011

  57. Doctrinal corruption can cause one to forfeit one’s salvation (Gal. 5: 1-4, Col. 2: 7-9). Indifference to the clear teaching of scripture is sending many people, who like to refer to themselves as christian, to HELL.

    Matthew 7:22-24 (King James Version)

    22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

    .

    This is a horrifying reality to those of us who do care.

    Hence, the necessity for contending for the faith.

    By Wayne on Feb 21, 2011

  58. “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.’” (Rev 18:4 NKJV)

    My only hope in writing is that some will read it, heed it, and come out of these Latter Rain revivals.
    There is no “new paradigm” as far as Christianity is concerned, just the same old narrow road that leads to eternal life in Christ. No immortality or streets of gold on this side of heaven. Just the truth. The Way, the Truth, and the Life - and that “old rugged cross”.
    It comes as no surprise that we are in the midst of a terrible apostasy in these last days as we have clearly been warned that it would come. It is still frightening that so many of God’s people today could fall for the same old lie that first deceived Eve so many thousands of years ago. “You shall be as gods.”

    The same old lie of Satan is the lie at the heart of the New Age Movement.

    Even sadder is the fact that it is the same lie that the Latter Rain “prophets” and “apostles” of “Joel’s Army” are putting forth today. You will become Christ – God on this earth. This is the heresy of Apotheosis.

    Thousands of Christians are swallowing it – hook, line, and sinker.The Church is trading her heavenly hope for an earthly delusion. Like those foolish virgins of the parable, their lamps have run out of oil. What they perceive to be oil, “the anointing of the Holy Spirit”, is instead only a sensual counterfeit offered up by seducing spirits.

    This counterfeit anointing comes with a counterfeit gospel of a false triumphalism that will lead to a New Age “Kingdom” under Anti-Christ.

    They will accept Anti-Christ with open arms, perceiving him to be Christ, whom they mistakenly identify as the “rider on the white horse” of Revelation chapter six verse two.

    What is so desperately needed in the Church today is so desperately lacking – discernment. Discernment to tell the Spirit of Christ from the ecumenical spirit of Antichrist. To discern the true anointing from the false anointing, the true Christ from the Gnostic Anti-Christ of the Manifest Sons of God.

    If you are participating in any of these Latter Rain revivals or churches today I urge you to turn back to the Bible. Compare what you are hearing and seeing with what is recorded and portrayed in the scriptures

    “Test all things, hold fast to what is good.” Call the leadership into account for everything they say, or teach, or do that does not line up with the word of God. If they refuse to repent – leave. Flee from the place and don’t look back. “Remember Lot’s wife.” I know it can be hard to leave a church, especially if you have family and close personal friends there. But if they will not hear you – leave them behind.
    The Latter Rain prophets are right about one thing – doctrine divides. Truth separates the wheat from the chaff.

    In the early Church the Apostles kept the deceivers and false apostles out. They did this by publicly identifying the heretics and warning the sheep of their false doctrines. Because of the diligence of the true apostles of our Lord, the false apostles and their followers were forced to leave the Church. The Apostle John writes:

    “Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many anti christs have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.” (1 John 2:18,19 NKJV)

    Today we face just the opposite situation in that the false prophets and apostles are in the majority in many churches. When they gain inroads into a church it’s more likely that only a minority will reject their false doctrines, revelations, and counterfeit “anointing” and stand on the Bible, being forced to go out from among the apostate majority.

    Hold fast to the end - for I am convinced that God is testing faithfulness rather than novelty in these last days.

    By Wayne on Feb 24, 2011

  59. Philip:

    Have you got conclusive evidence that Frank Houston was a paedophile “all his life”? Without evidence your comments could be libellous and you could be open to litigation. Just remember that slander is a sin as well, and in God’s eyes, just as bad as the sin you are commenting on in Mr Houston. Aren’t you very thankful that the Blood of Jesus washes you from all sin, as it has with Mr Houston’s sin?

    By Paul Christensen on Mar 23, 2011

  60. Paul:

    It depends on what you mean by “conclusive evidence”. There is some anecdotal evidence which would suggest that Frank Houston’s problem (sin) persisted to the end of his so-called “ministry”. If a charge of “libel” was examined in a court of law then no doubt the validity of such evidence would be tested. I doubt that will even happen. In the early 2000s I was contacted by a Peter Fowler, who gave me permission to quote him by name. He brought a charge against FH long before Brian Houston and the AoG disciplined Frank. This charge may have contributed in some way to their action of discipline, but was clearly not the only (and certainly not the major) charge on which the discipline was predicated. And, YES, I do have conclusive evidence of that.

    By Philip L. Powell on Mar 25, 2011

  61. Jesus’ Gospel is aimed at law breakers, sinners, second to Nicodemus, and then also children. The cross caps faith with grace, mercy and rejects condemnation.
    AA Allen was a preacher who was alcoholic, but by his faith he ministered, gave grace, spoke for salvation of law breakers, grace is free flowing. AA Allen succeeded, but being left seemingly aside from attention, his disciples in places, committed suicide.
    Frank Houston, I saw him preach, heard the words about justice, mercy, grace, freedom… saw people choose Christ, saw people set free. Personally he told me, the hardest thing in my Christian life, would be forgiving myself. He prayed for me to have change in heart at request. His fault to me, was the liberal acceptance of deacons and the open, large, unchecked nature of the church. This led to injury in me.
    If Frank’s victim of his severe sin, had had him charged, on release the right thing to do, would be to accord Psalms 40 and 51, and testify of God’s love for him, speak it out, and find some way to proclaim the Gospel, with apologies for wrong doings. To show mercy and testify for the sake of the repentances and amendments of ways of all sorts of other law breakers. To do prison ministry, and show the Gospel overcomes and does not condemn.
    Grace from Frank’s faith is purposeful above conscientious judgment.

    By Novatian on Apr 16, 2011

  62. Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

    By Wayne on Apr 21, 2011

  63. There are no sins without forgiveness, in the blood of Jesus. A new cleaned heart, justice, peace, joy. Psalm 40 and Psalm 51 are right. God’s love does not stop, it refashions the heart. King David sang that his sins out numbered the hairs on his head, people laughed at him, but God’s love endured and he had to praise God for it. In Psalm 51, David repents from adultery and murder. He is forgiven, but the consequences seem to be division in his family and kingdom.
    Doesn’t Mark write of Jesus’ crucifixion and that Jesus forgave the soldiers who were killing him?
    And John that God does not want anyone to die, but for all to repent and have life? Frank as earlier in Mark 9 started a youth group. It was lovely to see them.
    Frank was seen casting out spirits during services. Interpreting tongues, showing mercy and inviting repentances. His staff were moved by the love of God.
    Frank may have secretly struggled with sin, more than others. What in your judgments should he have done with his time? Work? Apologies? Prison? Prison Ministry? Missions? Apologist? Prayer warrior? What did God want? Frank had a vision that was Gospel and served God’s will at some angles. Like winning the lost. Reaching pagans… They needed it. England was enriched by John Newton, author of Amazing Grace and advisor to William Wilberforce. Nowadays, a man like John would be doing 40-50 years in prison. King David could never return to politics. But all must comply with Jesus and beyond the Gospel, fulfill commissions. Quotas.

    If I knew a pastor had done something like this, I would not employ him to run a youth group, and I would not trust him with my child relatives… Yet Frank was obliged to obey God. There must be a way to do, what one is commanded. Somehow.

    The Gospel is not a tool for fairness, and condemnation, nor simply sustaining one’s own self righteousness, or conscientiousness. It should all pivot on grace, God’s presence and word recorded and live. The state justice system is separate from God and at a distance, and doing some good.

    By Novatian on Apr 28, 2011

  64. Grace rules until judgment day, angels will beat abusers of authority in the church, and we should prevent and stop such things. Also Jesus will judge and save or condemn as is perfect justice and love.

    Jesus installed civil authorities, they are fair enough. No salvation in them.

    Jesus’ blood covers and cleanses all who receive by faith, the cross is tremendous in mercy and salvation. Even though we may hate those people who sin, they still can be saved, loved, and go through the suffering as they deserve as is God’s plan, where and when God wants. Like Paul the apostle. We think now, Timothy was written by a second Paul. Not as bold.

    Peter and Paul suffered.

    Frank deserved to suffer, and be honoured alike Biblical characters of mixed behaviour before him. I would say, Mary Magdalene, King David, Jezebel of Revelations, and the Corinthian brother found sleeping with his father’s new wife.

    By Themat on May 2, 2011

  65. In this context of unmerited grace expressed by contributors above I am keenly awaiting the outcome of the judgement of God regarding those who have continued on with the apostate Latter Rain church leaders of today and who continue until that judgement day to follow these ‘anointed ones” in direct defiance of the clear teachings of the Word of God.

    Salvation by Grace alone so eloquently professed by the contributors above is complemented by the teaching of Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, “by scripture alone”) the doctrine that the Bible contains ALL knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness.

    Consequently, sola scriptura demands that only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture.

    Clearly any appeal to Grace must be complemented by an appeal to faithfulness to the teaching of scripture alone as well and this is where these apostate teachers clearly fail miserably and thereby disqualify themselves from the GRACE so freely available to the FAITHFUL.

    How dare we try to make less of these abominable sins than God Himself has decreed.

    How dare these apostate church leaders and supporters think they can introduce anti biblical unbiblical and extra biblical teaching into the church but continue to claim the benefit of unmerited grace where it suits them.

    God requires Faith in Jesus Christ alone FAITHFULNESS to HIS Word in conjunction with his free GRACE for the overriding purpose of ALL glory going to GOD ALONE.

    Acknowledgement, repentance and fervent seeking of forgiveness are surely the most basic requirement for forgiveness by the HOLIEST OF HOLY who must also be consistently JUST.

    Only God knows whether FH or anyone else for that matter is worthy of such forgiveness and the bestowal of grace.

    The judgement of God is clearly a matter for HIM alone. We MUST never attempt to usurp HIS role in determining our eternal destiny. This however is what these Latter Rain wolves are doing as they permeate and pervert genuine biblical christianity.

    However it is appropriate for us this side of heaven to respect or disrespect individuals on the basis of the evidence of deeds done in the flesh. In the case of Frank Houston the evidence provided by Philip Powell and others is clearly overwhelming and certainly more than I would need to convict in a court of law as a juror. To dare to use his high office within what was once (I hope)a bible based church organization to lure boys for the purpose of base sexual gratification is absolutely reprehensible and should always be recognised as such.
    On this basis alone I believe the Bible has provided clear insight for us into the mind of God namely
    Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

    By Wayne on May 5, 2011

  66. I thought we see our worth to God in that He died on the cross for us while we were yet sinners. That worth does not change. And that grace was granted to the lost, not the respectable. And that we are to love just anyone, unlovely, wicked, just…etc/

    By Novatian on May 7, 2011

  67. You seem to be confused Novatian. I will try to clarify this teaching for you.

    The Bible as the revealed Word of God clearly teaches that NOT all will be saved Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. We cannot continue to live in a worldly fashion and expect to benefit from the grace and mercy of the MOST HOLY GOD.

    The BIBLE clearly teaches a distinction between the FAITHFUL or those who accept HIS salvation and are spiritually empowered to live in accordance with HIS Word and those who do NOT accept it but place philosophical and other humanistic impediments in the way of HIS absolute truth and choose to seek their own way of salvation.

    The Bible teaches that there will be two judgements - ONE for those who accept HIS way of salvation and the other for those who choose to invent their own way of salvation. Cain, for example, chose to give God a fruit platter when God had decreed animal sacrifice and was rejected by God for his disobedience.

    Commitment to false religion be it Atheism, Islam, Roman Catholicism or the Latter Rain heresy sweeping through apostate churches that were formerly bible based is very similar to the deception Satan used on Eve and subsequently Adam in the garden of eden in its attack on the authority and integrity of the revealed Word and Will of God.

    The dialogue between Eve and the serpent is worth considering in this context because it subtly misconstrues what God actually said and opens the door to the trouble that will come:
    1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made.
    He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
    2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
    3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ “
    4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.
    5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
    .
    Both in the serpent’s statement to the woman – “Did God really say, ‘you must not eat from any tree in the garden?’ – and in her response – God said “you must not eat from the tree or touch it” – we see a distortion of what God actually said.
    In fact, God did not forbid them from eating from any tree in the garden – the restriction was focused on one tree; nor did he say anything about touching the tree.
    In both of these apparently minor statements, God’s truthfulness and reliability are questioned.
    God’s authority to determine the shape of reality is challenged.
    Sadly this happens repeatedly today when the absolute authority and spiritual integrity of the Bible as the revealed Word of God is challenged. This is evidenced repeatedly by the tragic nonsense many scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive are subjected to when they are taught and accept that they ‘…dare not question the “anointed” ones.” The Apostle Paul himself encouraged people to test everything he said against the revealed Word of God.

    GOD clearly requires faithfulness and commitment to HIS WORD NOT the reverse. The will of the unregenerate sinner for whom HE has made provision for salvation is NOT superior to the will and purposes of GOD as expressed to us very clearly in the Word of God the BIBLE.

    This opening of the door, this challenging of the order and structure that God had instituted in creation leads to the disastrous climax of Genesis 3 that we are all familiar with.
    .
    v6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
    7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
    With this act of disobedience, sin enters the world.
    .
    The first human beings were not content to be image-bearers – to have a secondary, derivative authority or position; they wanted to be “like God” in a way that they were never intended to be. This is the basis of the latter Rain heresy of apotheosis and other false ‘anointings’ and ‘impartations’ so wide spread today.
    The serpent was correct, in a sense, for Adam and Eve’s eyes were opened, and they did know good and evil, but they knew it from the irreversible perspective of having chosen evil over good. They had chosen to REBEL against HIS WORD and consequently had lost the paradise God had created for them.
    It’s easy to read Genesis 3 as the story of how Adam and Eve ruined things for the rest of us. When I was a child I certainly thought of it this way. They were to blame for my misery – if only they hadn’t taken the fruit, we’d all have lived blissfully ever after. As far as explanations go, this one had a certain simplistic plausibility to it and it had the happy consequence of taking the focus off of me and my natural inclination towards rebellion!
    But Genesis 3 was not written so that we would have someone to blame for our predicament. Genesis 3 explains our world but it also gives us a lens through which to examine ourselves and our commitment to HIM and HIS WORD.

    GOD IS ALWAYS TESTING FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD.
    CONVERSELY HE IS UNCHANGEABLE: NEVER CONFORMING TO THE WHIMS OF THE UNREGENERATE.

    The onus is always on the sinner to come to GOD HIS way and to receive HIS GRACE and HIS SALVATION HIS way as revealed to us in HIS WORD. TO ATTEMPT TO RECEIVE HIS GRACE ANY OTHER WAY IS SIMILAR TO THE EDENIC DELUSION OF ADAM AND EVE and is similarly doomed to failure.

    By Wayne on May 8, 2011

  68. You don’t make clear, God’s way, that you mention. Grace and impartations, you think are not God’s way?

    And you think we would not question the anointed ones?

    Also, I went from Catholic to charismatic to Pentecostal, and did not go so strong with sola scriptura as with, the anointing will convince you of all things, including it’s own authenticity. And, the scriptural and discerning by many counselors and confirmation by secret thoughts revealed. As from Corinthians.

    Also, in John’s Gospel it is written, that God wishes that none die, but that all repent, which seems to contradict the proverb, 16:4, also following that is 16:6.

    By Novatian on May 8, 2011

  69. John 14:15
    (15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    John 14:21
    (21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    John 14:23-24
    (23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    (24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

    It is keeping solely to God’s Word that will keep us safe from any kind of Diabolical Deception out there in the World/church today. Our discernment is useless and blinded if it is not based on the Teachings and Sayings of Jesus Christ. We therefore cannot separate Jesus Christ from His Teachings and Sayings.

    Jesus Christ is The Word of God and Jesus Christ and His Words are inseparable. We must NOT accept the demonic lie that you can love Jesus Christ even if you do not love His word.

    We ought to come before the Throne of Grace with humility and ask for Grace and Mercy that we may love Jesus Christ and Love His Word. It is this single factor of watering down God’s Word, having disregard to the Teachings and sayings of Jesus Christ that deception such as Latter Rain heresies has crept into formerly bible based churches.

    Yet even as 1Timothy 4 gives a warning against such Doctrines of Devils in the Last Days, Paul the apostle made sure that he gave the antidote in the same chapter.
    Paul the apostle gives us the ‘times’ or ‘season’ when this kind of ‘diabolical’ deception would occur, and that would be in the last days – the very days in which we live today.

    So there are three or four things that we learn from 1Timothy 4 and that is…
    • The Demonic Deception…
    • Who will be the object of this Diabolical Deception…
    • The Times and Season when it Occurs…
    • The Antidote to the Diabolical Deception…

    The four points are not that difficult for anyone to grasp… Every Christian from the baby Christians to those who have walked with The Lord for many years should seriously consider what Paul the apostle writes in 1Timothy chapter 4 as this is a clear echo of the warnings that Jesus Christ gave concerning the falsehood that would appear in the last days.

    Warnings about the Diabolical Deception…
    1 Timothy 4:1-14
    (1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    Those that are departing from the faith are Christians who happened to be in the Faith… You cannot depart from the faith if you are not in the faith in the first place. Therefore the warning is so serious that all Christians should take note of it.

    Therefore the object of this end time diabolical deception is the Church – some in the church are currently departing from the faith and giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.

    1 John 2:18
    (18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    [ Continued …….]

    By Wayne on May 8, 2011

  70. Matthew 7:21-23
    (21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Matthew 24:24-25
    (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    (25) Behold, I have told you before.

    1Timothy 4:6
    (6) If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

    Sound Bible Doctrine is emphasized in the verse above. It was in keeping to God’s Word that the saints in the Church at Ephesus would keep themselves safe from demonic teachings. Paul the apostle places emphasis on God’s Holy Word by telling Timothy that he had to be ‘nourished’ which meant to be fed with nutritious spiritual food, by feeding of the words of Faith and good doctrine.

    Refuse Profane and Old wives Fables…
    1Timothy 4:7
    (7) But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
    (8) For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

    Paul the apostle uses very strong language here in his description to Timothy concerning what Timothy was to ignore…Profanity and Old Wives Fables… Of course Paul’s concern was that the worldly philosophies of the day were contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and Christians had to be aware of such contradictions.

    Today many Christian Authors including Pastors and Preachers find it money worthy to publish so-called Christian books that speak nothing about what Jesus Christ taught but rather speak volumes about self help methodologies, positive thinking, and self empowerment among other self- empowerment topics.

    1Timothy 4:9-10
    (9) This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
    (10) For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

    Paul made a note to Timothy that the words he stated in his letter were faith and worthy of all acceptation. The warnings of Paul concerning the demonic falsehood that would come in the last days is worth take note of by any serious Christian today. Paul makes even this point stronger by stating that he and is team labored and suffered reproach because they trusted in The Lord who is Savior of all men and especially those who believe.

    In other words Paul was willing to take the reproach of equipping the Saints and warning them about the wolves that would come in their midst. Some times true ministers have to endure ridicule and mockery as they preach and teach Truth and Sound Bible Doctrine…the false preachers and pseudo pastors always belittle and make mockery of those who expose false teachings inside the Church.

    By Wayne on May 8, 2011

  71. Our churches don’t ridicule.
    The Bible is composed of genealogies and books of wisdom, and mostly books about God’s presence with man. His love. I think it is to be repeated.

    Many scriptures say we should receive the Holy Spirit, receive Christ, receive Power… and that the Holy Spirit is the teacher of all truth. So the Bible by itself is not sufficient spiritual food. It best not be read like a novel.

    For us to turn from sound doctrine true we must convert, and before the end comes, the Bible must be preached throughout the Earth, to all people!

    It is also true that God has no grandchildren, so, these must first convert in heart, or the scripture in Timothy about the great turning away is for the children of Christians, or those in name only.

    It is the ‘latter rain’ movement and Charismatics, who are converting the lost in droves, from paganism and some from Anglicanism… And the Baptists have a little success.

    And what of Islam and Catholicism?

    It is the so called doctrines of demons that are reaching the masses of Christians and pagans and Muslims to the effect of it being among the only type of Christianity heard at the far reaches away from western faith, dark corners of Africa, India as well, dangerous places like Egypt and Pakistan, Indonesia. Or else they’d never hear of Jesus, and fulfill the great commission, to take the Gospel to all the world. And these men die for their faith sometimes, for love.

    It is not self empowerment, or suits, or wisdom by itself, but love and power, the presence of God that reaches them. Six million Africans each year turn to Jesus from Islam. Risking their lives. Praising God.

    The Devil will not fight himself or his kingdom would collapse. From Jesus and Beelzebub.

    King David loved God, and the brother in Corinth found with his father’s new wife. Frank looked like he loved God. It did not always look that way in view of his sins. King David lost perspective, he was given a situation to judge by Nathan the prophet. About mere sheep. Then alerted to it being himself, it pricked his conscience.

    King David is unbelievable! If I had a wife who committed adultery, it does not look like she loves me, or comes home from love of honest intent, false closeness… I think I would divorce her.

    Looking at John’s quotes, in context, they are for confidence, to come to love, some quickly, some less quickly, not to condemn, or warn. His abode is his ‘presence’ place, as keeping with the rest of the Bible. If they grow cold, Jesus blood covers that, and they grow warm again, by confidence in his mercy, even in prison.

    By Novatian on May 9, 2011

  72. Sadly Novatian, God has sent delusion to those who do NOT love the TRUTH.

    In these last days that delusion is very clearly the LATTER RAIN heresy which has caused so many to denounce true biblical christianity in favour of this occultic new age counterfeit.

    There will always be a remnant who remain faithful to the Gospel ONCE delivered and these are the ones who will be saved on the day of judgement - NOT those who have committed themselves to occultic delusion.

    The gospel that Paul defended in Galatians is under serious attack today by such false religions as you refer

    False teaching is ALWAYS false teaching - False religion is always false religion.

    The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    Proverbs 16:4

    Psa 118:8

    It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

    The Bible teaches that our salvation depends on what Christ has accomplished for our pardon and our perfection. We accept by faith his substitution for us in two senses: in his final suffering and death, he was condemned and cursed so that we may be pardoned (see Gal. 3:13; Rom. 8:3); and in his whole life of righteousness culminating in his death, he learned obedience so that we may be saved (see Heb. 5:8-9). His death crowns his atoning sufferings that propitiate God’s wrath against us (see Rom. 3:24-25; 5:6-9), but it also crowns his life of perfect righteousness—God’s righteousness —that is then imputed to us who believe (see 2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 3:21-22; 4:6, 11; 5:18-19).

    God provided in Christ what God demanded from us in the law. But today this good news that Christ is not only our pardon but also our perfection is under serious attack.

    False christs abound throughout the New Age Latter Rain movement so that the spiritually naive and scripturally ignorant permit themselves to be deceived by this satanic deception.

    By Wayne on May 11, 2011

  73. 2 Thess 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    The delusion (or deluding influence as NASB version shows) has already been sent by God and the minds of “many” are blind to the truth and poised to be seduced by the man of lawlessness. The man everyone is looking for is actually already standing in the churches, the Babylon Churches of the end time that were built by men.

    2 Tim 4:3-4 For the time will (HAS) come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to fables.

    Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    These professing Christians think they were saved. They do works in His name, they believed in Christ or they thought they did. They played church and maybe were religious but they did not follow God and did not know the Lord. They are under the delusion sent by God. Their good works did not make up for the fact they lorded over their own life, doing their will not God’s. They were not led by the Spirit of God and because of that rebellion became sons of disobedience.

    John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

    Jesus told us in this verse from John that only those who love Him as demonstrated by their obedience are the ones He comes and discloses Himself to.

    Unrighteous deception results when we do not believe the truth (Jesus) to be saved and take pleasure in our sin. Those who do not love the Lord with ALL their heart, ALL their mind and ALL their soul are subject to the delusion. Jesus said anyone who sins is a slave to sin meaning that He is not their Lord. Somebody else or thing is the Lord of those who practice sin. Isn’t this what most of the “church” is being taught today? They are being taught that trusting in Christ and obeying Him are optional things we should do and that John 3:16 is the entire council of God. Because of such lies, people live like the world does, there being no distinction between the morality and behavior of believers and non believers alike. People are taking pleasure in their sins, going to church on Sundays and are deluded into thinking they are saved by a perverted gospel of grace. This is a LIE, the one Paul references relative to the delusion and is a total perversion of grace. This lie is supported by misapplication of Jesus work on the cross which was to destroy the works of Satan and free us from the bondage of continued sin.

    Paul wrote to the Thessalonians’s speaking about the end times apostasy that precedes the coming of the lawless one (the anti-Christ). We are in the thick of this apostasy right now and it has been on my heart to up the ante in proclaiming the warning while there is still time for repentance and the subsequent mercy from God. The delusion from God has ALREADY BEEN SENT. The delusion has come in the form of religious demons who have perverted the word of God and created man-made doctrines of religion that do not conform us to godliness and loving God with ALL our hearts.

    1 John 3:7-11 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

    Sadly, the apostate church teaches the opposite of what John taught the early church, contrary to the very words of Jesus, the other Apostles and the whole of Scripture. These teachings are lies by and large sprinkled with some truth. We must put on the divine nature of Christ and walked as He walked.

    Matthew 13:19 “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it,the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.

    If we don’t love God fully and seek to obey Him always, we will not see the truth and the enemy will come steal away what little truth we may have. The delusion is so bad, we now have the blind leading the blind yet the world looks to these blind teachers and calls them men of God. Evil is called good and good is called evil. God purposefully veils the truth from those that are perishing. The Bible is veiled to those who have hardened their hearts against God. This is a common theme throughout all of Scripture.

    By Wayne on May 11, 2011

  74. Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

    This scripture is as applicable to these apostate Latter Rain Pastors as it is to Frank Houston and other opportunistic religious entrepreneurs.

    By Wayne on May 11, 2011

  75. Charismatic Christians, believe in coming to love God with all their hearts, by Romans 5:5, by receiving the Holy Spirit, “because he first loved me”, because of the cross, passion, by obedience, to scripture, led by the Spirit.

    Several hundreds of millions converted to Charismatic Christianity will, hypothetically, have to convert to your evangelical faith, for scripture to be fulfilled, that the Gospel be heard by all before the end comes. And the second coming of Jesus.

    For the droves to turn away as you quote, they must first be turned. And must be temples of the Holy Spirit, not theologians only.

    Ones who received Christ, and manifest the fruit of Gal. 5:22, which is encompassed in love. These are Christians.

    Love can take time to increase. In the Toronto Blessing, Catch the Fire, they received God’s love, and grew warm. The Blessing of the Father’s heart. Salvation, heart warming, love, is not by scripture alone, not sola scriptura.

    I believe Jesus’ blood, not in name, but actual and local presence, infuses (not just imputes) justice and cleansing, by faith.

    I interpret the scriptures which suggest God makes evil happen, through the New Testament and verses like, “God causes no evil by turning.” The loss of people is not God’s first or even second choice, in the fight with the evil one, the accuser of the brethren, and his powers, such as to curse us, tempt us, suffer us, and deceive us, even as children, when too vulnerable.

    By Novatian on May 12, 2011

  76. The BIBLE EMPHATICALLY WARNS that False faith/religion will NOT save anybody.

    Only the born-again experience of the bible believing christian is sufficient to save.

    False teaching/religion does not suddenly metamorphose into being acceptable to the ONE TRUE UNCHANGEABLE GOD simply because new-agers, claiming to have special (extrabiblical) revelation and imparted ‘anointings’ (which are in reality demonically inspired), say so.

    There is ONLY one faith that is powerful enough to save and that is the GOSPEL ONCE DELIVERED TO THE APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST and for whom the TRUE BELIEVERS OF JESUS CHRIST are to CONTEND FOR EARNESTLY.

    .
    The TRUTH is ALL very clear in the scriptures for the remnant who remain faithful to the Word of God and are being saved by the power of the ONE TRUE GOSPEL ONCE DELIVERED.

    “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron…” (1 Tim 4:1,2 NKJV)

    And:

    “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,…” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV)

    2 Thess 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    By Wayne on May 13, 2011

  77. Matthew 7 v13

    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    .

    In particular it is crucial to emphasise, in these days of wholesale apostasy, these verses:

    Matthew 7

    21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

    .

    FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD IS WHAT GOD REQUIRES

    By Wayne on May 13, 2011

  78. Hello,
    I stumbled upon this site; the Christian Witness Ministries.
    This site is like numerous christian sites: a forum for free thought and discussion. I applaud this as there tends to be a reluctance among christians to be honest and open about anything that is a little gritty and controversial.
    I was at our weekly bible study (made up of Baptists, Pentecostals, Anglicans and other free range eggs) where we were discussing the issue of the assassination of Bin Laden. Some wanted to journey through their uneasy feelings on this matter; he should have been tried before being sentenced I think. None of us were leaping for joy, rather we found the matter disturbing. However, some did not wish to discuss the matter because it appeared to be negative.
    Their concern was just to pray: but as I said, “Pray about what?”
    My point being that if there is not a forum for discussion one can find it a difficult path to find a clarity on what or how to pray. We can be manipulated and forced along with the “flow” with no real rhyme or reason. Shutting up the box is a response of “Fear” and not a behaviour of “In the multitude of counsellors there is wisdom.”

    I am amused by the range of subjects covered here. It would appear that Benny Hinn and Frank Houston are the flavour of the moment.
    I have been 50 years in the faith and I must say that there would appear to be “nothing new under the sun”. All this sort of thing has been going on for ever: just read a bit of church history there have been some real “shockers”.

    I Knew Frank Houston and was taken to a pentecostal church camp by friends way back in the mid-to-late 1960’s. He was known as “Fireball Frank”, and yes that was a pretty good description. He appeared sold out for his commitment to faith; but really how does one make a judgment on a man that you only see performing on a stage?

    We later got to know him as he would visit his sister-in-law up the long country road from us. He seemed a rather quite pleasant man in private life. In fact I chatted to him at breakfast one Saturday morning at the local McDonalds, only 2 weeks before his death. He remembered me and was cordial and relaxed.

    Much has been said about his moral fall; however much has and will be said about his contributions. I must admit I had been informed about his “indiscretion” some years before it became public. The fact that anyone in high public profile will all ways be up for some controversy. Be this right or wrong it would just seem to be the case.

    I think that the situation is the same for Osama Bin Laden; a fair trial to establish facts and provable truth. This must all ways be the position of the christian who holds with Christ’s teaching on social justice. None of us can be Judge/Jury/Executioner, this is simply not allowable in the Old Testament justice ethics or New Testament social justice ethics.

    I am not making a judgement either way, just putting forward a platform of christian behaviour. My thought would be if I knew about the information about Frank Houston (along with others) some years prior, how come the AoG organisation did not?

    I find an interesting position here, though, in that God appears to choose the weak things of this world to confuse the wise and powerful. Consider the powerful film “The Passion Of the Christ” an incredibly moving and convicting film and yet produced by a man of talent yet obvious cracks in his vessel. Yet Mel Gibson was truly “inspired”.

    It can be easy to stand in condemnation: I must state that I am not taking any position other than we all struggle with our own issues. I am not a pentecostal but I can see the result of Frank Houston’s ministry: The Hillsong Movement. I say thank God that this movement has rejuvenated the young people in the church.
    I am an Anglican and think that it is appalling what they have done to get rid of the up and coming generation. God has used a broken vessel in Frank Houston for sure and I will leave it there.

    .

    Benny Hinn; well we need to decide as one your commentators has pointed out “is it a church?”. The church formulae is presented by our Lord; “When two or three are gathered in my name.” Denominations and structures are based on the three “R’s”. Ritual, Riches and Real Estate.
    Without these in place the formalised denomination has absolutely nothing at all. This works on the basis of numbers and power underpinned by good old soul-saving, life-changing, get-you-anywhere cash!! If you are a cashed up grasping pentecostal you could fly out to lands across the sea and attend a Benny Hinn show and have your sick child healed of their leukemia. My question is; if “There I am in the midst of you.” What then would be the need? Is not Jesus present with us now?
    Is it Benny doing the healing? or is it the powerful presence of our Lord that still touches lives today?
    Who is at work?

    This smacks of Romanish pilgrimages; travelling afar through great perils and privation to touch the bones of St. Peter to receive a blessing.

    I will sum up: I think there is no substitution for getting up early and studying the scripures and using other helps for background. Living a quite and peaceable life as is stated in the formulae: “He has shown you o man what is good; and what does the Lord require of you?
    But to do justice, to love kindness (mercy) and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah the Prophet.

    By Kevin on May 14, 2011

  79. Hi Kevin…certainly there are a number of such sites as CWM. I’m intrigued on how you stumbled upon Christian Witness Ministries.
    The question of Benny Hinn is well documented,a man who has allowed ego and this present world to cloud and corrupt any good he may have done.
    On the matter of Frank Houston certainly the jury is still out. Was he involved in misconduct throughout his ministry? Was he hiding his sin? Was there a a number of individuals who he took advantage of? Did the AOG not know or did they choose the way of the Ostrich.
    I have not enough knowledge of the man or his ministry to comment beyond these questions.Certainly a man who was used of God.

    However his son is a different matter. To the extent that your own denomination has lost a generation, Hillsong have corrupted a generation, and commercialised a message to suit the modern palate, with music the is now lyric for lyric like the world. Our Lord is demoted to the level of a boyfriend/girlfriend.
    If we are to say that The Hillsong Movement has rejuvenated the young people in the church, then like A W Tozer I say to what?
    - And winning them to what? To true discipleship? To cross-carrying? To self-denial? To separation from the world? To crucifixion of the flesh? To holy living? To nobility of character? To a despising of the world’s treasures? To hard self-discipline? To love for God? To total committal to Christ? Of course the answer to all these questions is no.

    We are paying a frightful price for our religious boredom. And that at the moment of the world’s mortal peril.

    By lance on May 14, 2011

  80. “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.’” (Rev 18:4 NKJV)

    My only hope in writing is that some will read it, heed it, and come out of these Latter Rain
    revivals.
    There is no “new paradigm” as far as Christianity is concerned, just the same old narrow road that leads to eternal life in Christ. No immortality or streets of gold on this side of heaven. Just the truth. The
    Way, the Truth, and the Life - and that “old rugged cross”.
    It comes as no surprise that we are in the midst of a terrible apostasy in these last days as we have clearly been warned that it would come. It is still frightening that so many of God’s people today could fall for the same old lie that first deceived Eve so many thousands of years ago.

    “You shall be as gods.”

    The same old lie of Satan is the lie at the heart of the New Age Movement.

    Even sadder is the fact that it is the same lie that the Latter Rain “prophets” and “apostles” of “Joel’s Army” are putting forth today.
    You will become Christ – God on this earth.

    The heresy of Apotheosis.

    Thousands of Christians are swallowing it – hook, line, and sinker.

    The Church is trading her heavenly hope for an earthly delusion.
    Like those foolish virgins of the
    parable, their lamps have run out of oil. What they perceive to be oil, “the anointing of the Holy Spirit”, is instead a sensual counterfeit offered up by seducing spirits.

    This counterfeit anointing comes with a
    counterfeit gospel of a false triumphalism that will lead to a New Age “Kingdom” under Anti-Christ.

    They will accept Anti-Christ with open arms, perceiving him to be Christ, whom they mistakenly identify as the
    “rider on the white horse” of Revelation chapter six verse two.

    What is so desperately needed in the Church today is so desperately lacking – discernment.
    Discernment to tell the Spirit of Christ from the ecumenical spirit of Antichrist.

    To discern the true anointing
    from the false anointing, the true Christ from the Gnostic Anti-Christ of the Manifest Sons of God.

    If you are participating in any of these Latter Rain revivals or churches today I urge you to turn back to the Bible. Compare what you are hearing and seeing with what is recorded and portrayed in the scriptures

    “Test all things, hold fast to what is good.” Call the leadership into account for everything they say, or teach,
    or do that does not line up with the word of God. If they refuse to repent – leave. Flee from the place and
    don’t look back. “Remember Lot’s wife.”
    I know it can be hard to leave a church, especially if you have
    family and close personal friends there. But if they will not hear you – leave them behind.
    The Latter Rain prophets are right about one thing – doctrine divides. Truth separates the wheat from the chaff.

    In the early Church the Apostles kept the deceivers and false apostles out. They did this by publicly identifying the heretics and warning the sheep of their false doctrines.

    Because of the diligence of
    the true apostles of our Lord, the false apostles and their followers were forced to leave the Church.
    The Apostle John writes:

    “Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many anti christs have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.” (1 John 2:18,19 NKJV)

    Today we face just the opposite situation in that the false prophets and apostles are in the majority in many churches.

    When they gain inroads into a church it’s more likely that only a minority will reject their false doctrines, revelations, and counterfeit “anointing” and stand on the Bible, being forced to go out from among the apostate majority.

    Hold fast to the end for I am convinced that God is testing faithfulness rather than novelty in these last days.

    By Wayne on May 14, 2011

  81. Hello.
    Thank you Lance for your reply. I will attempt to address some of your points presented to me.
    I was visited by an old friend of mine recently; he is not computer literate and was disturbed about the news of David Wilkerson’s recent death. He wanted some more information on this and so we searched the web. Some how a connection or heading landed us here at CWM. As you know once you follow a thread it can be a bit like a wander down the garden path.
    My friend was a great supporter of the late David Wilkerson. It would appear that D.W. is one of the prominant figures who had not sold out to the “Big Machine”. Judging by D.W.s on-line UTube sermons he would appear to hold grave concerns as you do for the future of the church. D.W. speaks out against the “Giggle Sickness”, the “Gold Dust Miracles”, and the “Drunken Jesus off your face with Jehova-juana pot head Christ”.
    I won’t develop these ideas at this stage but in respect to the “Gold Dust Rain” I would refer you to Carl Jung’s “Man and his Symbols”. Jung presents here a painting by the Flemish artist Jan Gossaert (mid 1450’s). Here you will find a pretty pert breasted maiden named Danae sitting at a window box. The great father god Zeuss is showering down on her as golden dust (sperm) to impregnate her as he is intoxicated by her beauty (Page 280 of the Penguin/Arkana edition). I find all this quite fascinating as a lot of today’s religious “carry on” has all been done before. There is simply nothing “New” about these so-called cutting-edge “moves of God”, or the Spirit, as they would put it.
    A good book to consult would be “The Battle for the Mind” The author’s name escapes me at present and I could not locate the book in my vast and overstuffed library. The book is not a christian writing but rather a study and research done by a prominant english psychiatrist some years ago. A great deal can be learned from this work along with the studies of the great Carl Jung.

    It would seem to me that schools these days do not teach a classical education, but rather what is required to pass an exam. When I went to school (many years ago) we received the old English style of a classical education and were aware of the great writers both of the English literature and Greek/Roman writers and classical myths. I was educated in an old Anglican school and one thing we learned was the ability to “Think about thinking”. They call these meta-skills now I believe.
    What I am attempting to say is: I think that people do not have the “backgrounds” today to think about things in a critical and analytical manner. They do not seem to be aware that certain things have been done before or have a precedent somewhere else in time, other culture or literature.

    I may have wandered off the track here a little but I am suggesting that every thing may not be as “Satanic” as some may feel.

    Friends have commented to me that the church is under real attack. My reply to this is that the church has done done a great deal to “Bugger itself up”. Certainly without the help of any outside extraterrestrial assistance. That is just my personal view however and I appreciate that not all will agree with me on that score. Then again that is the great benefit of a free thinking christian forum!

    As to the matter of Hillsong: For a start it is probably worth letting old Frank RIP. In saying this I in no way trivialise those who have suffered at his hand. God loves him and will judge him in His own way and receive him into his kingdom - of that I am sure. This is a broken world; broken people break other people. This is not the way we would want it. I am not an “idealist” by nature or personality so I do not by habit concern myself greatly by what I think “Should and Ought to happen”.

    We must never loose sight of the fact that if Adolf Hitler had turned to Christ in repentance the whole of heaven would rejoiced “at the one sinner that repented”. This is the whole message of our Lord’s lecture on the Prodigal Son. Our Father in heaven looks and sees us coming “yet in the distance”.

    I would like to agree with you that my Anglican tradition which kept the faith through world wars and times of great difficulty has certainly failed today. This grieves me. I among with many pray for a great reviving of God’s Spirit in this community. My wife and I are actively involved to this end. We are scholars and musicians and use our talents in this way.

    When I see the Hillsong movement I am encouraged by the renewal of the faith in the young. I do not see that these young people are plummetting down some path of spiritual destruction irrespective of the thoughts of A.W. Tozer.

    You speak of discileship, character development and hard self discipline to name a few. These are all part of a journey in faith. These things are not an instantaneous result; we learn obedience and character by the things we suffer. This all takes time: Abraham is an example of this, he had no real idea of where he was going but he was in in search of a city built by God. We know the stories of Abraham and can see clearly his success and failure; but his ongoing journey in God was considered as faith and therefore attributed to him as righteousness. As I understand things this formulae has not changed.

    I was reading some old books in my library, they are over 200 years old. These books are a collection of contemporary christian writings that I have been collecting over the years at great expense. I found it fascinating to see the christian mind-set and world-picture of the christian ideals at 200 years ago. By today’s standards we as christians would consider our predecessors racist, unforgiving and utterly harsh and intolerant to all but a middle class imperialistic English worldview. Those in difficult situations would be deemed to be there as result of their own wickedness.

    My God how views and ideas change over the years thank God!!

    Once again I am of the opinion that nothing is really new under the sun. Have a look at the words to many of the old hymns; even the tunes are military like and sound like Victorian Glbert and Sullivan stanzas. Believe me I’ve performed both on stage. Thank God for the new music, as a 60 year old musician I enjoy playing it. In both the new and old music there is some rubbish and there are also some real inspired gems.
    Not everything is good and not everything is bad.

    Some people are of an idealistic personality some are more pragmatic and yes some are definitely opportunistic.

    Finally, God is building His church and He will do this His way. We must have faith that He is in control and will bring about His purpose. We land in time where we do, and have not much to say about that. If I was born in the 1500’s then I would not be so free with my opinions. Just coughing in the wrong direction would have brought me undone. If I had been born in the time of St.John (late 80’s) my christian doctrinal expectations would have been vastly different. Consider 1 John, the formula for conversion was a belief in Christ coming in the “flesh” as opposed to the current docetic gnostic views. The other complicated formulae of trinity, creeds, confirmations and such were still hundreds of years away!!

    regards, Bro Kevin.

    By Brother Kevin on May 15, 2011

  82. Interesting thoughts Kevin. I’m reminded of our dear brother Jean Calvin, who has been described as both a Renaissance Man and a Reformation Man, when reading your reflections on the need for a classical education.
    You may be onto something there, mate. In the business field more and more candidates for managerial roles are being sought who have a general education and who can view situations therefore from multiple perspectives, rather than only through the BBus-MBA framework. There is a new valuing of the wider view emerging in business here in Oz.
    .
    In my theological training I observed fellow students concentrating on the ‘mechanics’ of what is working in ministry and in “successful” churches - i.e. the pragmatic. At times it was like listening to a bunch of technicians bragging about their superior techniques for efficiency. The lecturers would often call the focus back to the biblical foundations of serving (ministering), yet I wondered how much this was taken onboard. It’s not very glamorous to serve others without thought for your own reputation. Years later I bumped into an acquaintance from college and was surprised that his first question of me was ‘So what are your numbers?’, referring to the people statistics of the congregation. Most evangelical ministers I’ve met are very concerned about “these most significant matters”. It’s a worry, isn’t it.
    Your favourable attitude toward Freud’s one time disciple, Jung, is somewhat peculiar given the content of Jungian psychology and therapy. His archetypal ideas have had an indelible effect on many in the healing professions and have been regarded as ‘gospel’. And the MBTI tools and their derivatives are now widely used in HR departments in many types of organisations (including some parts of the Uniting Church here in Queensland). Accepting his ideas without that same critical thinking applied to him would not be wise for anyone wanting to minister the life of Christ Jesus.
    .
    In many ways, each believer is called to put idealism into practice. Take the mountainside sermon for example - it is not ‘pie in the sky in the sweet by and by’ but rather is the essence of the constitution of the kingdom of God given to us by King Jesus for application in the here-and-now in the time each of us has been allotted. Many have attested to its primacy as the base for ethics.
    .
    Pragmatism has resulted in people ministering ‘in the name of Christ’ who have very little depth of understanding in the ways of God, but who can preach a stirring sermon and inspire people & some have grown large churches. But ethical reasoning that is rooted in theological understanding is absent. Thus the plague of bully-pastors and predator-pastors that is rampant throughout the world at the moment - it seems that every country has their own stories of these.
    .
    By being informed of God’s ideals, plans and desires we humbly alter our aspirations and perceptions to his ideals. We contemplate the marvels of his grace, we envisage people we know being restored and made whole, we imagine what it will be like with the whole earth knowing the glory of God … and we pray for these, and act on the opportunities to influence others based on these ideals.

    Nice to read your thoughts.

    By a small potato on May 15, 2011

  83. Hi Wayne, your recent blog concerning the Latter Rain groupies, has only been brought to my attention recently. It is nothing more than a cloak of religious soothsaying, these leaders play at the faith we have once and for all had delivered unto the saints. Many a dear soul is indeed searching for water in a well that has run dry, or they are drinking at the waters of marah.
    It is difficult to fathom, but the common root cause is the lack of knowledge and understanding of the scriptures, and its precious words as our one true source and guiding light. Instead these ones want to dance to the flute of extra biblical revelations, like one 10 cent Christian guy who had a conversation with the Devil. You would have thought he was coversing with a neightbour over tea and jam, the way he described it. And yet he is given a mic to prattle on this baloney in front of the church congregation.

    By lance on May 15, 2011

  84. Thank you Lance.

    As Kevin has pointed out, there is nothing new under the sun. This Latter Rain nonsense started in the garden of eden with satan questioning the Word of God.

    Adam and Eve accepting his suggestion that they would be like God if they disobeyed HIM has resulted in humanity being tested by the creator God for their willingness to obey HIS WORD.

    Clearly FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD (OBEDIENCE) IS WHAT GOD REQUIRES.

    The occultic latter rain alternative is the trick of the devil to lure the scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive into disobedience. The classic latter rain heresy of apotheosis being promulgated today was first presented in the garden and has been the object of the many deluded individuals who like to consider themselves the people of God ever since.

    THE ONLY WAY TO AVOID THIS DELUSION IS TO BE ABSOLUTELY ANCHORED IN THE WORD OF GOD.

    Back to the issue of FH.

    The judgement of God is clearly a matter for HIM alone. We MUST never attempt to usurp HIS role in determining our eternal destiny.

    Usurping the role of God however is what these Latter Rain wolves are doing as they permeate and pervert genuine biblical christianity with their doctrines of demons luring people away from the one true faith BIBLE BASED Christianity.

    The Bible provides overwhelming teaching and comforting support for those who are humbly listening to HIS Word to enable the truly obedient follower of Christ to avoid this wicked apostasy.

    However it is appropriate for us this side of heaven to respect or disrespect individuals on the basis of the evidence of deeds done in the flesh. In the case of Frank Houston the evidence provided by Philip Powell and others is clearly overwhelming and certainly more than I would need to convict in a court of law as a juror. To dare to use his high office within what was once (I hope)a bible based church organization to lure boys for the purpose of base sexual gratification is absolutely reprehensible and should always be recognised as such.

    On this basis alone the Bible has provided clear insight for us into the mind of God namely

    Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

    Clearly this verse is equally applicable to ALL Latter Rain wolves leading so many to desert true christianity in favour of this occultic delusion.

    Matthew 7 v13

    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    By Wayne on May 15, 2011

  85. No one who fails to obey the gospel will be saved.
    Among many other scriptures 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9 shows the apostate as a category of people who will not be saved.
    “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.”
    “These are those who fail to “obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
    In Hebrews 5:9 we read, “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” Jesus saves those who render their allegiance and their obedience to Him.
    This means that we have to know what the gospel says and that we must obey it without reservation.
    To start walking in right relationship with God, one must hear the word of God (Romans 10:17), believe it (John 3:16), repent of sins (Acts 17:30), confess Jesus as the Christ (Romans 10:10) and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). This is God’s plan for man’s salvation. We must be obedient to it if we want to be saved. Moreover, we have no right to alter or change in any way God’s plan for man’s salvation. Pragmatism for the sake of personal empire building is as evil in the eyes of God as any other false teaching.

    Paul wrote in Galatians 1:8, 9 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

    Those who choose not to obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, whether they choose not to become a Christian or whether they choose not to remain faithful to Biblical Christianity, but instead follow such “ravenous wolves” as the leaders/teachers of the Latter Rain apostasy

    By Wayne on May 15, 2011

  86. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
    Mat 24:10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
    Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
    Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold. ASV

    Mat 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come. GNB

    Wayne and Lance, this scripture explains 2 Thess 2:3, before the end can come, the Gospel must be preached to all the world, and there must be a great turn to God, for there to be the “great many”. From which there is a falling away. It is only happening now. Look at Calvin’s era, little evangelism, turns to Christ were few, in particular, outside Europe in China and Africa… handfuls.

    You can tell a tree by it’s fruit, our anointings bear fruit in love for the lost, the sinners and pagans, so they turn from Islam… to Jesus, and endure, literally bombings annd the losses of their homes… they praise God.

    We know the scriptures, we have colleges and universities for that.

    We know that what we receive is good.

    Acts 1:8, say we shall recieve power. To convert the lost to Jesus way. You know if somone has received power, by their love and obedience giving people inspiration and conviction to turn to Jesus.

    The Bible mentions;
    God’s Spirit hovering over the deep.
    Genesis 1:1-3.
    His presence walking in the garden of Eden with Adam.
    Genesis 3:8
    Blood sacrifice, Elohim and Abel.
    Geneis 3:21, 4:4.
    Fire presence.
    Exodus 13:21
    Angels.
    Exodus 3:2, 14:19.
    Bread from Heaven and bread of life.
    Exodus 16:31, John 6:33-35.
    The Serpent on a pole and Christ on a cross.
    Exodus and the Gospel.
    Jesus’blood.
    Hebrews 10:19, 12:24, 13:12.
    Holy Temple.
    Exodus. John 2:19.1 Cor 6:19.
    Living water.
    Ezekiel 47:1, John 4:10, 7:38. Rev 22:1.
    Revelations of God and Heaven.
    Moses’ and Ezekiel’s accounts. All the prophets.
    Anointing oil. Jesus and the prophets.
    2 Kings 9:1-3. Matthew 3:16.
    Light.
    John 1:9.
    Love.
    Romans 5:5, pours.
    God doesn’t want a sola scriptura with ignorance of his Spirit. Look at the early church, the first five hundred years, healing rallies, gifts, appointments, struggles, conversions. To be REVIVED now as then. If possible fewer struggles.

    By Novatian on May 18, 2011

  87. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHOUT SOLA SCRIPTURA and the other sols as the basis of obedience and faithfulness to the ONE TRUE GOD.

    Any spirit which leads away from the scriptures is clearly satanic in origin and MUST be resisted by all who will be saved.

    By Wayne on May 19, 2011

  88. What is Sola Scriptura, I was raised a Catholic?
    Both as a Charismatic Catholic and a Charismatic Christian, all beliefs have to be checked with the whole Bible.
    All my quotes above ARE FROM THE SCRIPTURE.
    I am writing that one cannot have the Bible without it’s author. And you can see the whole Bible theme is God near man, and his favour. You can read the scriptures and miss that they lead to, need and call upon the Holy Spirit to come into ones life, for salvation from sin and winning the lost.
    All proper charismatic prophecy and knowledge from the Holy Spirit must be tested against the Bible!
    Paul the apostle had a commission from God, we too have commissions that however are not in the Bible, but honour it’s messages.
    To practice Romans 5:5 we practice love feasting. We obey the main commands of God’s strength. It is my aim.
    I heard of a brother who asked for prayer, he wanted prayer that his son, under arrest would not have committed a certain crime. Compelled by friendship his pastor answered the request, reluctantly. It did not turn out. I think Danny Nalliah is something like this. I don’t trust his name as much after errors like that.
    This charismatic way is for, and of the Spirit of grace, from and tested with the scriptures.

    By Novatian on May 19, 2011

  89. Novatian, I am hearing you say that ALL things must be tested by the clear teaching of scripture and we certainly agree on that point.

    Historically, Christians have believed the entire Bible to be inerrant — free of error — in the books’ original, autograph versions.

    However, the entire Bible was written by a group of very human authors. The only way in which fallible humans could have written so much inerrant text would have been for them to have been inspired by God. Given biblical inerrancy, one can assume that God must have overseen the creation of the Bible’s text in some way, and pro-actively prevented the authors from committing any error.

    Paul refers to the Hebrew Scriptures as the “word of God,” not of men:

    1 Thessalonians 2:13: “For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”
    (KJV)

    A key proof text used by conservative Christians to support their belief in inspiration is in one of the Pastoral Epistles. It states that all of the Scriptures are “theopneustos” in the original Greek — “breathed out by God:”

    2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (KJV).

    A second popular verse which supports the concept of inspiration is in one of the General Epistles:

    2 Peter 1:20-21: “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV)”

    In fact I agree with that sentiment entirely.

    You should be aware that Roman Catholic teaching places the teachings and traditions of “the church” above the clear teachings of scripture making them a FALSE cult for BIBLE believing christians.

    Latter Rain “heretics” place their particular “anointing” above the clear teaching of scripture. A former Pastor of mine infamously boasted “I do not care about Bible doctrine, I only care about my anointing.”

    Attitudes such as this make all such groups very dangerous because they are masquerading as christian whilst presenting a different gospel and a different Jesus to the Jesus Christ present by the original apostles.

    Both practice a similar form of POPERY whereby the teachings of man superceed the Gospel of Jesus Christ ONCE DELIVERED. The ONE TRUE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST was completed in the days in which HE gave us HIS WORD in the BIBLE. Modern prophecy MUST always correspond with the clear teaching of scripture or it is mere soothsaying and of NO spiritual value.

    The Biblical formula for dealing with a FALSE prophet, i.e. one who does not have a 100% success rate is death. I strongly believe that false prophets such as Danny Nalliah, and sadly there are very many of them, should be METAPHORICALLY stoned to death in terms of their relevance to the TRUE church of Jesus Christ.

    By Wayne on May 19, 2011

  90. In these days of wholesale apostasy throughout what was once biblical christianity the Holy Spirit often seems to be misrepresented as some form of supernatural “sugar daddy” dishing out mystical manifestations as if he is operating more as a circus side show than the Third person of the Triune God. Biblical conformity is sidelined as experience and the supernatural takes over for participants to experience some sort of emotional spiritual roller coaster which causes people to refer to “their (perceived)experience” rather than what the Bible clearly teaches.

    All supernatural power comes, ultimately, from either God or Satan. God gives power to those who believe the truth. To approach God, truth is the cost of entry. BIBLE TRUTH DOES MATTER!

    Satan, however, whose nature is deception gives power to those who believe a lie. Believing the lie is the cost of entry to access Satan’s power. Witchcraft bolsters up the lie with: mystery, pseudo-science, ancient knowledge, new knowledge, etc…. The more absurd the lie, the better. The lie acts as a distracter.

    If we mix certain ingredients in a drink… If we eat a special herb… If we arrange candles in a certain configuration… If we stare into a crystal ball… If we turn over Tarot cards… If we “read” the stars… If we speak a certain phrase, or mantra… If we have secret knowledge… If we draw certain symbols… then spiritual forces will come into play.

    James 3:15 (NIV) Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil.

    Witchcraft starts with a heart of rebellion and works by focusing on a distracter, a lie, which is some technique purported to release power.

    It is important to have “faith”, to trust in the technique and not God. Believing in lies is an “acceptable sacrifice” to Satan, the father of lies, who honors his children with real power. The irony is, that due to the inherent deceptive basis of witchcraft, the practitioners of it often think they are serving God, while accessing a power from below (earth)–not from above.

    I am defining witchcraft as a desire to be a spiritual free agent without submission to God or regard for His word THE BIBLE.

    1 Samuel 15:23 (NIV) “For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the Word of the Lord, he has rejected you…”

    Psalms 107:11 (NIV) For they had rebelled against the words of God and despised the counsel of the Most High.

    Nehemiah 9:26 (NIV) “But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they put your law behind their backs. They killed your prophets, who had admonished them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies.”

    Does Witchcraft Work?

    Even though Satan is usually the furthest thing from the mind, the “father of lies” honors the self-delusion inherent in witchcraft by occasionally releasing power, even doing supernatural miracles for those who have rebelled against God and yet still want to be spiritually effective. By this means, real power can be exerted to achieve health, beauty, enchantment, supernatural sensitivity, “insight” through drugs and experiences, oracles and visions, and the like. In this sense, witchcraft works.

    Exodus 7:22 (NIV) But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.

    Exodus 8:7 (NIV) But the magicians [Jannes and Jambres] did the same things by their secret arts; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt.

    Witchcraft, characterized by belief in “knowledge from below”, and rejection of “knowledge from above,” in it’s more advanced and powerful stages, is a delusional belief in what is clearly not of God.

    Satan’s tacit “deal” is: if you sacrifice truth on his altar, he will give you power for what you want now. LIES, however, are flimsy things to put your trust in…
    Exodus 8:18 (NIV) But when the magicians tried to produce gnats by their secret arts, they could not. And the gnats were on men and animals.

    Isaiah 47:12 (NIV) “Keep on, then, with your magic spells and with your many sorceries, which you have labored at since childhood. Perhaps you will succeed, perhaps you will cause terror.”

    Witchcraft In The Church
    Deuteronomy 18:14 (NAS) “For those nations, which you will dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so.”

    Acts 8:9-11 (NIV) Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, “This man is the divine power known as the Great Power.” They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic.

    Jeremiah 5:23 (NIV) But these people have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away.

    It is sobering to see how similar modern witchcraft (Wicca, or “white witchcraft”) is to modern Christianity. Self-aware witches bless as well as curse, ‘bind and loose’, prophesy, pray, lay hands on, anoint with oil, engage in an activity similar to many modern day “deliverance” ministries.

    Some even consider themselves Christians with superior knowledge, understanding and power - the “anointed ones.”

    A few even worship Jesus–along with a pantheon of other gods and goddesses.

    This should not surprise us, it was the same in Jesus’ day; nor should it poison our desire to practice real spiritual gifts.
    Given the similarity, how does one tell the difference?
    More importantly, are we dabbling with witchcraft?
    Isaiah 30:9 (NIV) These are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to listen to the Lord’s instruction.

    2 Timothy 3:6-8 (RSV) For among them are those who make their way into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and swayed by various impulses, who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth. As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith.

    Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (NIV) Let no one be found among you… who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or cast spells, or who is a medium or spiritist.

    Faithfulness to the WORD OF GOD alone is what HE is seeking from those who are truly HIS.

    By Wayne on May 20, 2011

  91. Well expressed Wayne - and the corollary is that because these 66 ‘books’ are inerrant and God-breathed, they SOLELY are the enscripted revelation of God, and are fully trustworthy and authoritative.
    .
    Therefore when scripture declares that God commands all men everywhere to repent, he requires all peoples, no matter what their religious tag (including Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Bahais, Jews), to repent and come to Christ Jesus alone for forgiveness and spiritual regeneration.
    .
    Novation, there is a short article with links on the 5 ’solas’ which is helpful at www.Theopedia.com/Five_Solas

    .
    There are, of course, “fruit cakes” who interpret parts of the Bible to fit into their own fantasmagorical schemes for their idea of true-believers and also the end of time. E.g. Within 200km of my abode is a quasi-Christian commune with a ‘charismatic’ Bible-teaching leader and his partner who proclaim to their faithful that he is a reincarnation of Jesus Christ. And outside Queensland and across the big pond is a US group called FamilyRadio who are proclaiming the end of the world on this very date I’m writing at about 6pm - around 9am tomorrow here in Oz.
    .
    What do we conclude from this? For a start, Don’t believe every teaching - be discerning and critical in sifting ideas - for all ideas have consequences. Compare every teaching that claims spiritual authenticity, with the whole counsel of written revelation.
    Charles Haddon Spurgeon wisely said that no-one can ever outgrow the Scriptures for they are ever deeper and wider than our growth.

    By a small potato on May 21, 2011

  92. Even more so than the clearly false religions it is essential to be aware of the extra danger that groups falsely representing themselves as christian actually cause to the scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive who effectively allow themselves to go along for the ride.

    Roman Catholic teaching, for example, places the teachings and traditions of “the church” above the clear teachings of scripture. This makes them a FALSE cult for BIBLE believing christians.

    Latter Rain “heretics” place their particular “anointing” above the clear teaching of scripture. A former Pentecostal Pastor of mine infamously boasted “I do not care about Bible doctrine, I only care about my anointing.”

    Attitudes such as this make all such groups very dangerous indeed because they are masquerading as christian whilst presenting a different gospel and a different Jesus to the Jesus Christ present by the original apostles as presented to us in the BIBLE.

    By Wayne on May 21, 2011

  93. Galatians 1:8-9 (King James Version)

    8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    By Wayne on May 22, 2011

  94. Charismatics believe that the Holy Spirit is the teacher of all Truth. So without the Holy Spirit, we have little to go by in the Bible to understand it. Bombarded by thoughts from spirits of condemnation, anti christ, fears…

    In the anointing is such teaching.

    As a Catholic charismatic youth, I was taught to use the Bible to test things. I also believed in the Pope’s infallability, and so thought true prophecy, is infallible. I left Catholicism and followed the gifts of prophecy and words of knowledge, and at Sydney CLC the brothers taught me that prophecy is to be tested against the word of God. And the Catholic clergyman I know from the CCR also taught me that prophecy is not infallible but comes through human instraments in their terms. For I thought they were exactly quoting Jesus, word for word, intonation for intonation just as he spoke.

    There were many people and gifts of prophecy and words of knowledge at Sydney CLC in 97-98. None of them were extra-Biblical. They honoured God. One lady was corrected by the pastor for an errant prophecy. One leading pastor there was corrected for an erring prophecy, saying “You must be changed into another person, before you can enter the presence of God.”

    Now looking at the early church, they had the Old Testament to check things with, and the author, the Holy Spirit. They received many gifts of the Spirit so Paul and Clement recount much jealousy in Corinth. Texts to read were not as in our printing press days. The Holy Spirit was the mains.

    I believe in testing the anointings and gifts with the recalling of the Bible. With what gives peace, and encourages or warns, and by what is remarkable insight, into my secret thoughts, for God’s honour. For it is written that prophecy reveals the secrets of persons hearts.

    1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or one not instructed comes, he is convicted by all, he is judged by all.
    1Co 14:25 And so the secrets of his heart become revealed. And so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.
    1Co 14:26 Then how is it, brothers? When you come together, each one of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be for building up. MKJV

    Asking for love, knowing what it is and isn’t, knowing that God is the blessed three in one and the works in the new testament, means that God more powerful than evil will come, no counterfiets possible. To say God can be pushed aside, or would let evil come instead is blasphemy.

    What God did to compose the Old Testament, he can still do now, he has the ability. And what the Spirit did to compose the New Testament, he can do this again too. Although we can’t eat with Jesus in the flesh.

    If we lost WW2 and the Nazis made a deal with Communist Russia and China and extremist Islam instead of invading them, we may have lost the Bible. If so, God would have to start again, and he can. The Spirit of Truth lives always as strong as before.

    The love, the outpourings, the gifts of the Spirit are still there. I no longer hold to the Catholic Magisterium. But I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit by himself, and moreso having built the works, writings of the prophets, he was able to build the Gospels as firm works, well acknowledged. From which we can test the gifts and ask for love with confidence, that as we ask for bread, the Spirit will not give us stone. Matthew 7:9.

    The Bible theme is God’s presence, loving, reviving us, responding… From Adam’s spiritual death there comes a time in Genesis when there was revival as Adam’s sons called on the name, Elohim. Enoch is taken into God at this time, Noah is a fruit of it, and salvation of the Adamic race. There is Abraham’s turn to God, Moses’ revival of Israel, Israel falls and revives several times. By the prophets. Jesus only revives part of Israel. The book of Acts is new work and life, but is a revival none the less. Now we seek revival of the book of Acts and 1Corintians 12-14.

    The sames themes as the Bible, the same fruits, cannot but be the same author. Matthew 7:16.

    By Novatian on May 22, 2011

  95. I am happy for this discussion, but I think using scripture as a convenient truth to back up your own view point must be done without twisting God’s word. We must remain with the correct plumbline
    Does the spirit give us gifts?
    Your previous quote “From which we can test the gifts and ask for love with confidence, that as we ask for bread, the Spirit will not give us stone?
    - Luke 11:11 - 13
    If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
    If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    Matt 7:11;If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

    By lance on May 22, 2011

  96. These verses above show God the Father as the giver of spiritual gifts.
    1 Corinthians ch12 vs4-11 shows gifts that the Spirit gives
    Ephesians ch4 vs8-13 shows gifts that Messiah-Christ gives.
    .
    Thus we learn that each member of the Godhead is involved in the giving of spiritual gifts. And, like the activity of Creation, we see a wider view that it is wholly of Trinitarian grace abundantly poured out upon the elect who have been regenerated, that spiritual gifts are received. It is a great honour to have received a spiritual gift, for not one of us merits this.

    By a small potato on May 23, 2011

  97. Roman Catholicism is a system which is comprised of a mixture of truth and error. On the surface, it appears to many to be a brand of Christianity because it staunchly claims to embrace and defend the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. However, a closer examination proves that it is a system which actually nullifies and distorts Scriptural truth by adding erroneous, man-made teachings which openly contradict the Catholic and non-Catholic Bibles.

    For example, the Roman Catholic Church claims the inspiration of the Scriptures, but dilutes the Word of God by exalting the authority of its own traditions, councils, and decrees above the Bible. Catholicism teaches the deity of Christ, but places Mary and priests as mediators between God and believers so that free access to Jesus is only possible through them. It teaches the forgiveness of sin, but only through confession to a priest and the absolution given by him. Catholicism teaches salvation, but substitutes a system of grace plus works in which human works are more important. It teaches that Christ established the Church, but exalts a man (the pope) as its head and invests absolute, infallible authority in him and his official decrees. These are just a few of the distortions we will further examine in this booklet.

    THE GRADUAL DEVELOPMENT OF ROMAN CATHOLIC ERRORS

    Before we compare the fundamental teachings of Roman Catholicism with the Catholic Bible, it should be pointed out that the distinctive features of Catholicism originated several hundred years after the early church. Though the Catholic Church argues that its roots can be traced to Christ, the historical facts do not substantiate this claim. Roman Catholic dogma has gradually evolved over the centuries. However, none of its major traditions and doctrines were taught, defended, practiced, or embraced by the apostolic church. The following list will indicate the approximate date when the various doctrines, rituals, decrees, and beliefs were instituted:

    1. Prayers for the dead. (A.D. 300)

    2. Making the sign of the cross. (300)

    3. Wax candles. (320)

    4. Veneration of angels and dead saints, and use of images. (375)

    5. The beginning of mass as a daily celebration. (394)

    6. The worship and exaltation of Mary and use of term “Mother of God”(431)

    7. Priests begin to dress differently from laity. (500)

    8. Extreme unction. (526)

    9. The doctrine of purgatory, instituted by Gregory I. (593)

    10. The Latin Language used in worship and prayer Gregory I. (600)

    11. Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints and angels. (600)

    12. Title of “Pope” or “universal bishop” first given to Boniface III. (607)

    13. Kissing the pope’s foot, began with Pope Constantine. (709)

    14. Temporal power of the popes, conferred by Pepin, King of France. (750)

    15. Worship of the cross, image, and relics authorized in (786).

    16. Holy water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest. (850)

    17. Worship of St. Joseph. (890)

    18. College of Cardinals established. (927)

    19. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV. (995)

    20. Fastings on Fridays and during Lent. (998)

    21. The mass developed as a sacrifice and attendance made mandatory. (11th Century)

    22. Celibacy of the priesthood, decreed by Pope Gregory VII. (1079)

    23. The rosary, used in prayer. (1090)

    24. The Inquisition, instituted by the Council of Verona. (1184)

    25. Sale of Indulgences. (1190)

    26. Transubstantiation, proclaimed by Pope Innocent III. (1215)

    27. Auricular (private) confession of sins to a priest, instituted by Pope Innocent III in Lateran Council. (1215)

    28. Adoration of wafer (Host), decreed by Pope Honorius III. (1220)

    29. Bible forbidden to laymen and placed on Index of Forbidden Books by Council of Valencia. (1229)

    30. The Scapular, invented by Simon Stock, an English monk. (1251)

    31. Cup forbidden to the people at communion by Council of Constance. (1414)

    32. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma by Council of Florence. (1439)

    33. The doctrine of seven sacraments affirmed. (1439)

    34. The Ave Maria (Hail Mary) invented and completed 50 years later. (1508)

    35. Jesuit order founded by Loyola. (1534)

    36. Tradition declared to be of equal authority with the Bible by Council of Trent. (1545)

    37. The Apocryphal books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent. (1546)

    38. Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX. (1854)

    39. Syllabus of Errors, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX and ratified by the Vatican Council; condemned freedom of religion, conscience, speech, press, and scientific discoveries which are disapproved by the Roman Church; reasserted the Pope’s temporal authority over all civil rulers. (1864)

    40. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals proclaimed by the Vatican Council. (1870)

    41. Public schools condemned by Pope Pius XI. (1930)

    42. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death), proclaimed by Pope XII. (1950)

    43. Mary proclaimed mother of the Church by Pope Paul VI. (1965)

    Many other scriptural abuses and irregularities could be added to this list: Monks, nuns, monasteries, convents, forty days of Lent, holy week, Palm Sunday, Ash Wednesday, All Saints Day, Candlemas Day, fish day, meat days, incense, holy oil, holy palms, St. Christopher medals, charms, relics, novenas, and many more. This revealing list represents an overview of the many human inventions which have corrupted, distorted, and perverted the official positions presented as truth by the Roman Catholic Church.

    By Wayne on May 23, 2011

  98. The church of Rome claims that the Bible is the inspired Word of God but, in reality, they supplant and undermine its absolute authority by exalting church traditions, councils, and decrees above the Scriptures. In fact, the Council of Trent (1546 A.D.) declared that church tradition was of equal authority with the Word of God.

    As I have stated many times previously, Roman Catholicism places tradition on an equal and often higher level than the Bible. Roman Catholic traditions, commandments, papal decrees, and councils have repeatedly usurped and contradicted the clear teachings of Scripture. The fact is that many of the positions and dogmas of Roman Catholicism rest upon the foundation of human innovations, traditions, and teachings rather than the Bible. For this reason, Catholicism strongly defends its traditions and rigidly regulates any interpretations of the Bible which conflict with its positions. Rome has even added a section of uninspired books to the Bible called the Apocrypha because they provide the only semblance of support for a limited number of their teachings, beliefs, and practices. These books are not found in the Hebrew Old Testament, and were never referred to as Scripture by Christ or His disciples, and were not even sanctioned by the Catholic Church until the Council of Trent in 1546 A.D.

    However, Jesus rebuked the usurping and undermining of Scriptures through man-made tradition when He said “The worship they offer me is worthless, the doctrines they teach are only human regulations. You put aside the commandment of God to cling to HUMAN TRADITIONS. . .In this way you make God’s word null and void for the sake of your TRADITION which you have handed down.” (MK 7:7, 8, 13, J.B.V.).

    Such prominent Roman Catholic doctrines and practices as the mass, purgatory, the priesthood, Transubstantiation, prayers for the dead, indulgences, penance, the worship of Mary, the use of images in worship, holy water, rosary beads, the celibacy of priests and nuns, the papacy, and many others are based totally upon tradition and are without the slightest shred of Scriptural support to substantiate them. In fact, the Bible gives strong witness against many of these teachings and practices.

    By Wayne on May 23, 2011

  99. Bible believing christian find it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to recognise the Roman Catholic church as anything other than a FALSE CULT for any ONE of the multitude of reasons stated above.

    The same disqualifications, of course, apply to the plethora of charismatic and pentecostal groups which were, I believe, once bible based but have now sunk into the mire with acceptance of the Latter Rain heresies.

    By Wayne on May 23, 2011

  100. 1 Timothy 4:1-14

    (1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times (some) shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    By Wayne on May 23, 2011

  101. The ultimate blasphemy, of course, is Popery.

    As the vicar of christ or ‘the one who takes the place of christ’ the very term may be effectively translated as antichrist as he himself believes he is taking the place of christ on earth and the church teaches this abomination.

    Pope Boniface VIII declared in his “Unam Sanctam Ecclesiam” of 1302 that:

    “it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

    In 1870 Pope Pius IX proclaimed “Papal Infallibility” in all matters of faith and morals.

    This is the basis of the multitudes of unscriptural, anti-scriptural and extra biblical teachings and practices which biblical Christians find absolutely abhorrent and completely IMPOSSIBLE to tolerate.

    The Roman Catholic Church NEVER changes. They say that about themselves and they have never retreated from this blasphemous position.

    This is ignored by people who find that biblical teaching prevents them from engaging in the popular ecumenical and religious activities of the day.

    When compared with the clear teaching of scripture such ecumenical activity is Biblical Apostasy. The bible cannot be distorted to support both the claims of Jesus Christ and the claims of popery.

    This most basic affront to biblical Christianity, the Roman Catholic teaching of “Unam Sanctam Ecclesiam” directly contradicts the words of Jesus in John 14:6:

    “I AM the Way the Truth and the Light, NO man cometh unto the Father BUT by me.”

    The former National President of the AoG in Australia, Brian Houston, however, has stated,
    “We pray that this papacy, LIKE THOSE BEFORE IT, is marked by a commitment to seeing the Christian message continue to go forward and people changed by the power and truth of the gospel.” I notice the internet now carries copies of him similarly extolling the virtues of the current Pope, presumably for purposes of self promotion and personal advancement.

    Paul says in Galatians 1 verse 8 …..”though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

    2 Timothy 3:16 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    The way for the truly born again bible believing christian lead by the HOLY spirit into the TRUTH of the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ and faithful commitment to HIS WORD the BIBLE is extremely clear.

    There will be NO excuses on the JUDGEMENT day for those who choose to allow the delusion to sidetrack their faith. We have all been warned more than adequately.

    By Wayne on May 23, 2011

  102. Hello All,
    The discussions on the nature of the scriptures and the Romish Church are very interesting. There are some very interesting and valid comments made.
    The Anglican position is one of the “Three Legged Stool”. That is to say; Scripture, Reason and Tradition. I know that the general opinion of the “Evangelical” is that of the Sola Scripture. On the surface I have no real issue with this at all; but it does open a can of worms as far as interperetation goes.
    Lance has rightly pointed out that scripture can be used conveniently to create and justify any and all religious points of view. These views can range from the sublime to the mind boggling.
    A real “pearler” is one that the money addicted penticostal screamers worship. They grasp at the prophet Malachi and ask “How are we robbing God?”. Well we want your 10% church taxes and not only that we demand an offerring on top as well. Using the three legged stool principal we would discover that the text in Malachi states nothing of the sort. I recommend a decent bible translation; the New American Standard Version. This version is the most literal and its foot notes clarify literal renderings and any “gliss” that might present itself. Another two good translations are the new Holman Standard Study Bible or the very new “Recovery Translation” which sticks pretty much to the greek. Compare the reading to say Berrys Greek New Testament. The Recovery Translation should not be confused with the NIV Recovery Bible.
    The point is the three legged stool method would show us that malachi is presenting a kick in the pants for the nation Israel, the priests and the people. The tithes were the payments from 2 sources only: increase of the grain and the increase from animal husbandry. These tithes had a multiple use over a three year cycle. The offering was the blood “Heave” offering. It wouls appear that from manipulated scriptural interperetation of this verse we can seize cash but ignore the animal blood sacrifice!!
    This just one example of how a condemnatiry teaching is promoted. Not only that the teaching is usually associated with a vivious curse. In other words using a scripture to solicit funds with meanacing. This does not expose sound bible discussion or reveal a particularly nice God. Back grounds and history must be taken into account. A study of church history and a reading of the church fathers and commentators will aid us in understanding the tradition of the church’s interperetation over the years. For instance tithing did not really become a viable practise untill 8th century. Early church practises did not involve tithing. St. Paul in Hebrews tells us that “He caused the sacrifices and priesthood” to cease”. So we know then that the Aaronic priesthood (or sexually procreated order) to finish and the subsequent blood sacrifice to cease.

    Another pearler I heard was a new dogma put forward by a Australian Christian Churches franchise. The teaching is quite wide spread and has become I believe part of the lingua franca of this movement. The preacher was expounding from Revelation 1:6, He went on to say that we are a Kings and Priests.
    The exposition was that the Kings were the wealthy businessmen in the community who give from there largess to bless the ministry in the community. Harking back to some medieval image of the beneficiant King caring for his subjects. The Priests were the Pastors in the community. This should get Wayne rather jollied up as it smacks of Romish nonsense.
    The priests of course will administer the funds!!!
    Believe me I heard this clap trap with my own ears. Unfortunately they took this rendering from the old King James Bible. The word used for Kings in the greek is Basilion; or Kingdom. Not Basilius; King.
    The concept is that we are a kingdom of priests before our God: no one interviens between us and God as a result of the passion of our Lord Jesus. One can see here how the addicted grasping for wealth/power can undermine a very powerfull teaching concerning the liberation of man kind before God.
    It would seem to me that the Romish Deception and the Penticostal trickery would both sing well together in Tetsell’s castrati choir.
    “As the coin into the coffer rings — the soul from pergatory springs!” You will need to sing this ditty in the style of the BeeGees and you will be sounding somewhat authentic.
    So I am saying here that the Bible on its own is not enough. I personally hold that the scripture as originally penned is “God Breathed” and we can take it in confidence.
    I am also saying that without solid back ground assistances we can wander down some merry old paths. In my 50 years of Bible/Christian journey I’ve seen some horrible bloody damage done to people because of vested interest views. I’ve sat under sermons about Noah and his black skinned son Ham. Ham as you know giggled at the naked drunken Noah splayed out on his bedding with his appendages in full view. Ham was cursed and so we now understand why the “Nigger” is a cursed and down trodden sub species put in his place by God. Believe me I sat in the congregation as a young man listening to “inspired gems” like this. I recall the preacher sweating and mopping his brow under the annointing whilst delivery this “edifying” tome. All I can say is thank God I was born a white skinned Celt. I understand that this thinking affected much of the Dutch reform thinking and influenced the attitude toward the negroes in South Africa. How all the black Africans can be held accountable for Noah getting “pissed” is a little beyond me. I shall leave that one to the more learned.

    Anyway, it wouls appear then that matters of sola scripture and belief have more immediate repercussions than in the “Sweet By and by”.

    Cheers, Brother Kevin

    By Brother Kevin on May 25, 2011

  103. Hello all.
    I must apologise for the spelling errors in my last letter. It is freezing down here. The wind chill off the snowy mountains was really affecting my injured back. I was finding it hard to concentrate. I will be more careful in future.
    Any way keep up the good work. It is wonderful to see that there are many good christian souls out there. I think that the majority of christians I meet are thinking about the Sunday Roast whilst attending church.
    We must continually “contend” for the faith.

    God Bless,
    Brother Kevin

    By Brother Kevin on May 26, 2011

  104. I’m not sure that ‘the Anglican position’ is one of the 3-legged stool, as Anglicanism is truthfully a very mixed bag. In Brisbane the diocese is clearly ‘high church’ and there are some evangelical congregations within it and the occasional charismatic congregation. In Sydney the diocese is generally ‘low church’ so there is a higher proportion of evangelical churches and also of those in the renewal movement, and a lower proportion (though still a significant one) of high church and Anglocatholic congregations present. Then there are the mission agencies like CMS and Church Army who are very evangelical & evangelistic. It all depends who you are talking to.
    .
    The Wesleyans have added a 4th source of authority - experience. This has greatly influenced many, and has been likened to a quadrilateral figure.
    .
    No matter how we picture authority’s sources in Christian faith, the basics are that Christ Jesus alone has been given ALL authority and the enscripted Word of God is his revelation and serves him to bring people to himself. Any levels of authority that reason, tradition & experience may have must be measured against the scriptures, and adjusted according to these inspired, authoritative words. In a way it is like a tripod resting on the firm terrain of Scripture. This is not Bibliolatry.
    .
    ANY TEXT USED WITHOUT ITS CONTEXT IS A PRETEXT.
    Our hermeneutic must be more than ‘I read the words of the Bible & now know what the Bible says’ - for it must be allowed to permeate our lives. The inductive approach of
    “what does this passage say?
    what does it actually mean (there-and-then and here-and-now)?
    How can this be applied in my life?”
    is a great way to start our adventure in God’s Word. As we progress along the track we can find commentaries and Bible background works very helpful too.
    Do you notice that it is the application-to-our-life quest that most of the energies of “the tripod’s legs” are chiefly concerned.
    .
    Yet I must state that the Bible alone is sufficient to give us all knowledge and understanding on matters of life and of godly living. And I have read widely in the Humanities during my life and as part of my degree work back yonder. The Bible sitting on a bookshelf is of no personal value until we read it , mull over it, allow ourselves to be changed by what it reveals, and live life in the light of the glory and presence of Christ Jesus.
    .
    Kevin, is the Recovery translation you speak of, the same one that the Witness Lee cult is freely distributing in Australia? Who are its translators? Is it based on dynamic equivalence, thought-for-thought equivalence, or word-for-word equivalence?
    .
    Shocking to hear of racist drivel still coming out of preacher’s mouths. In 1974 I was in an evening Bible school in St Leonards, Sydney, and heard one lecturer give a similar line, yet he backpeddled when I openly commented that it sounded very racist as an interpretation - it also seems affiliated with the Anglo-Israelism heresy, which seems to hang on like a leech, in some church circles.
    .
    It’s a goodly conversation this one

    much appreciated

    By a small potato on May 26, 2011

  105. P.S.
    And the exegetical task of ‘what does scripture actually say?’ is non-negotiable. Yet many Christians who are tithe-ists forget to do this foundational work, and instead come up with this perverse doctrine of Christians obliged to tithe (”on your gross pay not your nett pay, folks”) - even though the New Covenant scriptures clearly teach that the whole Old Covenant has been fulfilled, become redundant, and nailed to Christ’s (horrific) cross.
    .
    Abraham didn’t tithe his own goods, wealth, or income. It was the booty of war that he tithed from, a practice that is illegal now. It was once only - he never tithed before or after, that we know of.
    Jacob promised to, but only if God fulfilled his wishlist. There is no record of him paying the tithe.
    Moses recorded the LORD’s law faithfully regarding tithing. It was collected by the land-owners and herd-owners and given to the Levites. As Levites had no tribal land they were alotted certain towns - although some did live in other towns too - and the crops & stock were brought to them there sometimes. Usually the crops and stock were taken to the temple at Jerusalem at the time of one of the 3 major festival periods each year. These tithes were given by the people to the Levites. The Levites then gave a tenth to the priests and chief priests in their tribe (& kept 90%). The priests’ share was stored in the storehouse adjacent to the temple. There were no storehouses adjacent to synagogues, or adjacent to Levites’ homes that I’m aware of. These are the very people Malachi prophesies against, the Levites and priests, not the originating tithers!!!
    .
    Some of the tithe was eaten by the family bringing the tithe as part of festive worship of the LORD. The rest went to the uses the law declared.
    Cash was never tithed nor was it given in lieu of a tithe. If a worshipper had a long distance to travel WITHIN THE BORDERS of Israel, or if their tithe was an unmanageable quantity, they could convert it to cash for the journey and then purchase the equivalent quality & quantity of crops & livestock when they arrived in Jerusalem.
    .
    Notice that all Israelites were not required to tithe. No tithes came from merchants, fishermen, carpenters, day labourers, or anyone whose income was cash. These are just a sample of those who didn’t tithe.
    .
    Any preacher who promotes tithing in the New Covenant era is a fraud in this area of their teaching. Dishonest, dishonest, dishonest. A thief, a thief, a thief. Allowing this teaching to be heard is in fact allowing an embezzler to influence our brothers & sisters in Christ. The preachers of greed do not preach truth when they bind consciences with the false teachings of “seed faith”, “christian tithing”, “name it & claim it”, “love offerings”, etc.
    .
    …and that’s just a start

    By a small potato on May 26, 2011

  106. Hello all.
    Greetings again Mr. Potato. I will be brief at this writing and address two of your questions.
    Firstly the Recovery Translation Bible is as you have suggested. I am not making reference to Watchman Nee’s one time disciple but only to the translation itself. The version is very literal and readable. Yes it is jammed pack with commentary notes. Some of these notes are very worth while and I will have to be honest they follow the Dispensational/Futurism school of thinking. This is not a bad thing at all; it is just another school of opinion. You may be aware of a recently updated old bible the Dakes Annotated Bible. This version is a usefull tool and yet it too comes from a similar school it would appear. The Dakes Bible contains exerpts from the famous old Clarence Larkin book, “Dispensational Truth”.

    I collect and have collected many old and valuable works over the years. Some are very valuable and have cost many hundreds of dollars. I have a copy of every new study bible that comes out as an interest in collecting.
    My great treasure is the 1901 American Standard Bible with the Variorium renderings from the different codexes and scrolls. These are no longer availiable. I did see one for sale on-line and it was quite expensive.

    I know there are varient views on the over- views of world history and end time events. Every study Bible will generally be biased toward some direction or another. That I think is the joy of it all, there is much to learn.

    As to the Anglican position of the three legged stool. You are quite right to point out the vast variation in the Anglican Community.
    I realise they go from progressive liberalism through to intollerant evangelicanism.

    I would fit some where in the middle I guess. I was in the Newcastle diocese when I arrived in Australia. The three legged stool was indeed part of the philosophy of that stream of anglicanism; and yes I find it quite agreeable to my own religious philosophy.

    I have since moved and retired down to our country home near the Snowy Mountains.
    The Canberra Goulburn diocese is favourable with that view as well. My experience is with the more Anglo/Catholic side of community. Having said that people still have their own personal view points.

    At the end of the day I think that it is all about “community”. As people of faith I believe that good supporting fellowship is an important issue. We need to have a community that allows us to function in the wider community and our faith community. Not every one finds this and it can be a troubled journey for many to find a faith community in which they feel at ease. There will all ways be difference of opinion in any community, but that is just life.

    Your comments on Tithing are quite correct.

    Anyway I must away,

    God Bless,
    Brother Kevin

    By Brother Kevin on May 26, 2011

  107. Brother Kevin,
    Thanks.
    BTW could you verify who the translators are, please. As you are aware, there are many translations of the Bible out there that are worthy of use because the translators have mastered biblical languages. There are others that are not up to par at all - usually because the translators sre not scholars in these languages, though they may scholars in related fields. E.g. The New World translation is one I’d steer clear of for any use other than showing Jehovah’s Witnesses the volume of translating errors their ‘translators’ made in it. Another, the New Living Translation, IMO is “100″ times better than the Living Bible [of which it is a revision] because of the subject expertise of its translators, and is quite reliable.
    Also, you may be interested in this website www.anglicanlibrary.org which is putting out-of-copyright works online.
    cheers, Spud

    By a small potato on May 26, 2011

  108. The clear teaching of scripture is very simple and the path they lead to is very narrow.

    I am always amazed that some seem to think they have the authority to manipulate the scriptures and the use of the scriptures to suit themselves or that they are merely at the whim of opinion.

    Jesus HIMSELF rebuked the usurping and undermining of Scriptures through man-made tradition when He said

    “The worship they offer me is worthless, the doctrines they teach are only human regulations. You put aside the commandment of God to cling to HUMAN TRADITIONS. . .In this way you make God’s word null and void for the sake of your TRADITION which you have handed down.” (MK 7:7, 8, 13).

    By Wayne on May 26, 2011

  109. Jesus used the commands as a spring board and condemned the man made commands. Referring to King David over riding direct obedience to the written law, led by the Spirit that taught Moses, David ate unlawfully from the temple altar.

    It is written:
    Rom 8:14 For all who are led by God’s Spirit are God’s children. ISV

    The law has a backward but relevant place. It is useful, but not salvation itself. To live in God’s presence, we need the Holy Spirit, to live inside our heart centre, most sincere place within us. In so, to give us living character, love and justice and mercifulness. Not by head knowledge, though, it too has it’s place.

    I recall as a Catholic, living water, and Jesus blood, and secret thoughts revealed. It did effect me well, by the Bible. I was told to read it.

    My Grand mother died in those days, and the priest’s assistant was condemning of her. Influenced by protestants I think. But I had an interest in angels, and the presence of God, his mercy and “Mercy seat”. Upon the Ark of the Covenant.

    My mother had a dream of my gran in trouble and pushed me to pray for her. I prayed for her to be taken to the mercy seat. I went to a Catholic Charismatic meeting, and asked to be prayed for, for her. And the brother said he sensed a move of the Holy Spirit.

    So I never learned from protestants, why they disapprove of praying for the dead. Wayne writes it started in the fourth century. I am looking into it. There was the continuation of the book of Acts up to the fifth century.

    By Novatian on May 26, 2011

  110. The HOLY SPIRIT will ALWAYS act in accordance with the written word of God as contained for us in the BIBLE. Such delusion is consistent with the delusion which has over run the apostate Latter Rain churches which have ALREADY been rejected by God. The appropriate term for them is, of course, ICHABOD - the Spirit of the Lord has departed.
    All discernment MUST be BIBLE based.
    Any spirit which leads one to disregard the BIBLE is satanic in origin and MUST be resisted by ALL who will be saved.

    By Wayne on May 27, 2011

  111. Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands. MKJV

    The closest to accomplishing this, was the Catholic church, but it is being accomplished by the Pentecostals.

    Also in Chapter 7 the twelve tribes of Israel are blessed and sealed. Who will accomplish the conversion of the Jews?

    The Holy Spirit does not accord the Word of God, rather he is the author, he does not accord. He drives.

    We Pentecostals do not reject the Bible. How is it you ignore Jesus being above the law?Mar 2:23 And it happened that He went through the grainfields on the sabbath day. And as they walked His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain.
    Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said to Him, Behold, why do they do that which is not lawful on the sabbath day?
    Mar 2:25 And He said to them, Have you never read what David did, when he had need and was hungry, he, and those with him?
    Mar 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest and ate the showbread, which it is not lawful to eat, except for the priests, and also gave to those with him?
    Mar 2:27 And He said to them, The sabbath came into being for man’s sake, and not man for the sabbath’s sake.
    Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the sabbath. MKJV

    By Novatian on May 27, 2011

  112. False religion has ALWAYS been with us and always will be. The spirit that led Adam and Eve to disregard the Word of God in the Garden of Eden is the same spirit leading these false religions to disregard the Word of God through the ages. The False Church of the these end days is comprised of all of those religions which are UNABLE to faithfully submit to the Word of God provided for our direction.
    Matthew 7
    13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at:
    14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

    The leading of the HOLY SPIRIT will ALWAYS be in accordance with the CLEAR teaching of the scriptures.

    The BIBLE is the book of life for the truly born again believer.

    FAITHFULNESS to HIS WORD is what GOD requires and ALL spiritual giftings are designed to facilitate that faithfulness.

    Any other leading is counterfeit and satanic in origin.

    By Wayne on May 28, 2011

  113. The teaching of the Scriptures is from God the Holy Spirit and he does not accord them, but can be discerned by them, as he is the author. He never changes, and so the book of Acts, for example, will tell you the kind of things he does. But God cannot be boxed in by our own understanding. God is bigger than our minds, and creative rather than predictable. Calling anything you don’t understand, but which is an expression of love, alike Biblical events, risks blasphemy. Jesus said they will know we are Christians by our love. Not by only checking with the scriptures. Many unique situations present themselves.
    Looking at Matthew 7 and calling God. “Lord, Lord”. These people have authority in Jesus name to cast out spirits, and can prophesy, but may not be loving and caring disciples, may allow spirits to manifest, it is about ego and thrill. They do not seek God’s face, presence, for the greater than Biblically revealed plan.
    For the Bible is fifty percent of God’s will, for you, and his plan, after you begin to obey and love and walk justly, loving mercy, is unique to you, with a designated area and people, and is the other half of God’s will for you. As with Peter and Paul. The same Gospel, the same walk, different places, different messages. And Apollos, compliments Paul’s work. So must we.
    So people must not call phenomena Satanic, or they risk blasphemy.
    God is creative love.

    By Novatian on May 28, 2011

  114. Matthew 24:24-25

    (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    (25) Behold, I have told you before.

    By Wayne on May 28, 2011

  115. Wayne,
    What do theses ‘Latter Rain’ churches believe that you’ve referred to so often? What name/s does this denomination use? What is its history? Why are you so concerned about them?

    By Paul on May 29, 2011

  116. The occultic new age nonsense referred to as latter rain heresy has permeated most, if not all, denominations which were formerly bible based.

    For the born again christian it is imperative that all teaching be judged solely by the Word of God and that Pastors be held accountable for what they preach and teach.

    May I refer you to my comment of May 14.

    By Wayne on May 29, 2011

  117. Wayne that is just name-calling and hasn’t helped me understand what in the world you are specifically warning people about. Your May 14 comment above also doesn’t answer my questions.
    BTW I completely trust the Bible & agree with your championing of it above.
    ‘Latter Rain’ must be something specific in your mind, so please explain. My knowledge of it is small i.e. a ‘revival’ in Saskatchewan, Canada, 1948 was called by this name later - it had a teaching come out that a so-called 5-fold ministry was needed to get the body of Christ perfect before Christ returns. The internet also mentions a fruitcake William Marion Branham - and Ern Baxter (who I have heard of). How is this occultic, or New Age?

    By Paul on May 29, 2011

  118. Paul, I have provided information throughout my comments which should be MUCH more than sufficient for you understand that this stuff is a combination of occultic new age nonsense masquerading as a NEW MOVE of the HOLY SPIRIT which cannot be tested by the Bible primarily because of its novelty. This is the way this counterfeit religious nonsense is being presented by its leaders.

    There is much information available and you have touched of some of the occultic and new age connections yourself.

    Latter Rain is the name given to a particular line of heretical teachings dealt with by the AoG, for example, way back in the late 1940’s and disgraced when they were bible based.

    Sadly the AoG in Australia has succumbed to these insidious teachings and is now heavily into this stuff. Not all AoG organisations throughout the world however appear to be so accepting of this stuff.

    The teaching that one must not question or challenge the “anointed one(s)” in any way, sometimes referred to as “pentecostal popery,” is a by product of this extra biblical nonsense because the teachings of their leaders will not STAND UP TO ANY FORM OF BIBLICAL SCRUTINY whatsoever.

    It has crept back and now permeates many groups which were once biblical.

    By Wayne on May 29, 2011

  119. To avoid attempting to expose this very serious apostasy to as many people as possible would not rest easily on my conscience when these poor deluded souls are despatched to hell falsely believing they are “super” christians because of their misguided involvement in these occultic activities.

    By Wayne on May 29, 2011

  120. Paul,

    For Your Information

    I have found the information in the article at this website to be extremely interesting and useful for me as I attempt to understand the extent of apostasy which I have witnessed in previously bible based pentecostal churches. I am aware that this stuff has spread throughout non pentecostal groups as well.

    http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/background/Chas-Graves-Anointing-Apostasy.pdf

    Kind regards

    Wayne

    By Wayne on May 29, 2011

  121. See also http://www.erwm.com/Latter%20Rain.htm

    By Wayne on May 29, 2011

  122. Paul,

    There is an enormous amount of material available to you if you want to acquaint yourself with the nature of the apostasy sweeping through the churches at this time in history.

    Rather than try to explain in all to you on this blog may I suggest you try googling articles such as:

    “Anointing or Apostasy = The Legacy of the Latter Rain” by Charles Graves.

    Why is Latter Rain, Dominionism, and Kingdom Now Theology False? provides a veritable minefield of information.

    http://www.erwm.com/Latter%20Rain.htm

    By Wayne on May 29, 2011

  123. By “Latter Rain” do you mean the quote from Joel, saying a time will come when God pours out His Spirit on all flesh?

    And what do you fellows think of the idea of the Bible is God’s revealed will for all, and is the beginning and lead for us to find God’s personal will for us, our callings?

    What do you think about the absence of the preaching of Apollos in the Bible?

    By Novatian on May 30, 2011

  124. Latter Rain is the religious filth which has been more than adequately described and warned about.

    Matthew 24:24-25

    (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    (25) Behold, I have told you before.

    By Wayne on May 30, 2011

  125. 1 Timothy 4:1-14
    (1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    We see that Paul the apostle using very strong language here in that he quotes the Holy Spirit expressly, specifically, explicitly, particularly speaking that in the Last Days some shall depart from the faith, giving heed top seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils…

    Those that are departing from the faith are Christians who happened to be in the Faith…

    ou cannot depart from the faith if you are not in the faith in the first place. Therefore the warning is so serious that all Christians should take note of it.

    Many times when speaking about deception in the Church, I have found that Evangelical Christians are always quick to point the finger to Catholics, Episcopal, Methodists, among another ‘Liberal Christians’ as being ‘deceived’. Yet many Evangelicals are getting deeper into deception as they fail to examine themselves and their teachings in light of the Sayings of Jesus Christ, if they are still in the faith.

    Therefore the object of this end time diabolical deception is the Church – some in the church are currently departing from the faith and giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.

    The times and seasons are given to us by Paul the apostle when these diabolical deception is to occur, and that is the last days. Now, the question is that when did the last days begin? This question is important to get the answer and it helps us in our discernment and puts procrastination at bay insofar as discernment in the Body of Christ is concerned.

    Acts 2:14-21
    (14) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
    (15) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
    (16) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    (17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    (18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
    (19) And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
    (20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
    (21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Peter the apostle standing to speak mentions the Last Days as being the time when Joel’s prophecy concerning the outpouring of the Holy Spirit would be fulfilled. Certainly from that day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the believers in the upper room marked the beginning of the Last Days.

    This is why Paul the apostle, Peter the apostle, and John the apostle in their epistles always speak of the Church being in the last days… John the apostle puts it more clearly…
    1 John 2:18
    (18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    Therefore the ‘Diabolical’ deception in the last days is a warning by the Holy Spirit to the current Church with great urgency that all Christians watch and not be deceived by Doctrines of Demons and Devils.

    Those who choose to ignore such a warning like many Preachers and Pastors do today, is to do it at their own peril. Walking away from the Faith in Christ because you allowed deception into your life is to follow Devils to perdition. This is a very serious matter as it concerns your very eternal life.

    By Wayne on May 30, 2011

  126. The Gospel of Jesus Christ was delivered once.
    Genuine christianity is NOT an evolving religion it is the faith once delivered and preserved until the Day of Judgement in HIS WORD THE BIBLE.

    This is why Paul the apostle, Peter the apostle, and John the apostle in their epistles always speak of the Church being in the last days… John the apostle puts it more clearly…
    1 John 2:18
    (18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    By Wayne on May 30, 2011

  127. How do you know if your Pastor and Preacher are engaged in Teaching Doctrines of Devils? The answer is simple; it is all those teachings they teach that contradict the Whole Counsel of God’s Word. It is when they engage in teaching doctrines that contradict New Testament Christian Teachings. It is when they teach commandments of Men as if they are Doctrines of Jesus Christ. It is when they engage in teaching doctrines that contradict the sayings and teachings of Jesus Christ.
    It is when they insist on following the “anointed ones” without question and without checking them out against the clear teachings of the Word of God ONCE DELIVERED.

    JUDE 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    Yes, many times the false teachings are accompanied by false miracles, signs, and wonders.

    Matthew 7:21-23
    (21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Matthew 24:24-25
    (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    (25) Behold, I have told you before.

    A few examples of doctrines that are diabolical being preached by a number of Pastors today include…
    The Prosperity Gospel…
    The Dominionist Gospel…
    The Gospel of Legalism…etc…

    By Wayne on May 30, 2011

  128. In the last part of 1Timothy Chapter 4, Paul the apostle does not leave the saints hanging as in not knowing what to do in dealing with the false teachings authored by Devils and spreading by stealth inside Churches. Paul the apostle equips the saints with antidotes that would protect and keep them immune to the demonic deception inside Christendom in these last days…

    Put to Remembrance these things…
    1Timothy 4:6
    (6) If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

    Sound Bible Doctrine is emphasized in the verse above. It was in keeping to God’s Word that the saints in the Church at Ephesus would keep themselves safe from demonic teachings. Paul the apostle places emphasis on God’s Holy Word by telling Timothy that he had to be ‘nourished’ which meant to be fed with nutritious spiritual food, by feeding of the words of Faith and good doctrine.

    By Wayne on May 30, 2011

  129. Today if ye will hear HIS voice; Now is the accepted time, now is the day of salvation. (Heb. 3:7; 2 Cor. 6:2)

    Turn to the Bible and seek the real Lord Jesus Christ before it is too late.

    By Wayne on May 30, 2011

  130. Wayne, I didn’t expect that kind of outburst in reply to my question. Thankyou though for the links, which I will visit and read.
    Please note that Christian Apolgetics gives clear reasons for warnings about groups and includes summaries comparing their beliefs on the main issues with biblical teaching on these. “Be prepared to give an answer for the hope that is in you and do it with all gentleness.” I didn’t find much clarity on this in your writings, so I asked.

    By Paul on May 31, 2011

  131. Your comments are baffling to me Paul.

    What is it that you wanted me to do?

    The material I have referred you to provides a very good introduction to the nonsense that has permeated the church in general.

    I generally refuse to present information that I have not researched thoroughly anyway so any conversation I might have with you personally would be based on thoroughly researched material anyway.

    However I am used to many people I try to talk to about the things of God being committed to Latter Rain heresies and closed off to Bible Truth so perhaps I am a little strong when presenting the facts as I know them to be.

    I am unable to provide anything other than the facts Paul so I am unable to understand why my references to material about the apostasy sweeping through the churches is so difficult for you to refer to and understand.

    I have found it very easy to understand BUT also found the extent of apostasy so extremely obvious to me that I am amazed that so many people who like to call themselves christian have allowed themselves to be taken in by this nonsense in the first instance.

    By Wayne on May 31, 2011

  132. I am baffled by your comments Paul.

    In a nutshell:

    Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love [to have it] so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

    What is it that you want me to do.

    The material recommended to you provides excellent information for sincere people with a solid grounding in the Bible who are able to discern what is biblically correct as a basic prerequisite to being able to discern what is false.

    Consequently I have absolutely no intention of reinventing the wheel and trying to restate this factual material in my own words.

    I am prepared to discuss this material with you in person if you feel that might help you to have a better understanding of what is going on.

    2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

    God will ALWAYS have a remnant of people who remain faithful to HIS Word in spite of whatever demonic delusion might be in fashion.

    By Wayne on May 31, 2011

  133. Dear Paul,
    Hello.
    You have asked a question: “What is the Latter Rain Teaching”?? This is a fair thing to ask and it is good to clear away all the religious flummery and get to the point.

    I shall attempt to use Mr. Occam’s special 3 bladed Aloe Vera assisted shaving blade.

    I could probably go into a certain amount of documentation and reference on this subject. However I think a brief “over view” would suffice.

    The Latter rain concept is some what tied in with an allegorical use and reference to the “Feasts of Israel”.
    The general sweep of the canvas would suggest that we have moved on past the “Feast of First Fruits” and the “Passover” and onward to the “Feast of Pentecost”.

    The Penticost feast would be the outpouring of the Spirit and the subsequent “Speaking in Tongues”. The general idea is that the church is moving in the direction of “Restoration”.

    The idea being that much of the “Wonders” associated with the faith journey have been lost. These wonders and life in the spirit are being “Revived” or “Restored” to us.
    This is not a bad idea at all really. From a reading of your comments on line you appear quite serious and informed about things theological. So I know you would agree that much has been lost to our faith journey. The role of the Romanists and so forth has certainly polluted the rather simple message of “Good News”.
    The idea travels further along the Jewish Agricultural Cycle until we end up at the “Feast of Tabernacles”.

    “Tabernacles” was deemed the culmination of the Jewish Religious Feasts and the teaching follows that a great “Out pouring” would occur. This outpouring would be “As the waters cover the seas”, so to speak. Signs, visions, healings people set free and so on which is all good I think.

    A time of “Restoration” of all the wonders and blessings lost to the church age over the years.

    The theology as I said is based on an allegorical use of the Jewish Agricultural Cycle with added interpretation as to how it would work out for us today.

    Now that is a pretty quick run down I know, but having spent some time researching the subject that is about the nut of it; “Restoration and Revival”.

    Now the “nitty gritty”.

    Firstly we need to realise that here in Australia and NZ we are some what upside down to the area of Palestine.
    This being accepted; then our seasons would be (to use a good old Martin Luther) arse about face.

    Now if we take the “Latter Rain” for starters. Dismiss the theological twang and just call it the Last of the seasonal rains. Pretend we are farmers and not budding theologians for a moment. The last of the rains fall around the month of ADAR or the 12th month. The grain swells and later you harvest around NISAN or the 1st month on the start of the Jewish religious/agricultural cycle.

    There is in fact no “Latter or Last” of the seasonal rain cycle associated with “Tabernacles”. In fact the “early”
    or START of the seasonal rain cycle. This is akin to the end of Winter and early Spring.

    In fact the month TISHRI or 7th month is a time of ploughing and the time of “Tabernacles”. This would be in farming terms a time of preparing the soils for planting
    Before the Spring in months KISLEV and TEBET or months 9 and 10 respectively.

    This would continue until the “Latter” rains in month ADAR or 12th month and the ripening of the grains for the harvest. This 1st harvest would be as we said; the first fruits in NISAN or 1st month. This would be directly “after” the latter or last of the rains in the Jewish religious/theological cycle. Tithes of course would be garnished from the increase of these harvests.

    Now Paul I hope this all makes sense. You see in order to understand all this stuff one needs to take a holiday in the country. Much of this teaching is better taught in the “Hay Shed” than in a theological class room. The feasts of Israel had more to do with humping hay bales and shovelling cow shite. The leather arm chair and a glass of Galway Pipe Port in front of the fire place have little or no bearing on the matter. Freezing your butt off in the cold mornings on the farm give a far more realistic and spiritual insight into this matter.

    I think that the idea has not been fully thought out.

    I will bet you that there will be disagreement on what I have written. But I bet you no one else will give you a straight shooting concise explanation. Oh yes some will The connection between the great culmination at Tabernacles and the final rains just do not coincide in the real farming cycle.
    So make of it what you will.
    It sounds to me like a mixture of allegorical idealistic crowd motivating nonsense. However the desire for restoration is a good desire.
    explain it differently but I know that after an hour or so of it you will be none the wiser. I’ve heard it all before.
    I’ve challenged latter rain preachers on this point and it has been interesting to see the stammering lips; and how they need to rush off to a café latte leadership meeting.
    In fact I was a young man during the 1960’s and attending a Penticostal Bible School. The “Latter Rain” dogma was all the current rage then; so as I’ve said before nothing is particularly new under the sun. I fail however to see that it has any real earth shattering consequences that would require us to “come ye out of her and toucheth not the uncleaneth thingeth lesteth thou be taintedeth.”

    I see it as just another little “whimsy” that pokes its head up on a predictable cycle.
    I did however bring these points up before our college lecturer. To the credit of the lecturer, they approached a wise old Rabbi. His reply was “Ovey my son, your student is quite right.” So they kept the teaching on the “Feasts of Isreal” and quietly dropped the annual Palestinian rainfall cycle out of the mix. In short: Tabernacles = Early or first of rain cycle. First fruits/Passover = Latter or last of the rain cycle.

    This is also linked in with the Restoration of the Tabernacle of David. For another day perhaps!!

    I will also reply to you about your question on the Recovery Version Text but have been unwell of late. But no I have not forgotten.

    I hope the above information is helpful; there is one important issue to fully take on board. There is simply not one single issue on any christian theological point that has a unanimous agreement. Including the manner in which one comes to the faith journey. As a christian world wide collective body we simply have no consenses or agreement on any thing at all. Is this cause for concern or does God understand???

    Cheers and God Bless you all,
    Brother Kevin

    By Brother Kevin on Jun 1, 2011

  134. I don’t agree with the pessimistic interpretation and lack of scriptural explanation, the dodging. Christians are winning at conversion now. It is a good time. Delusions are atheism and the calling of the Holy Spirit as demonic. The expectation that God is angry and causing disasters. If you want to look for an Act of God, read Acts.

    By Novatian on Jun 1, 2011

  135. The Authorized KJV mentions HELL 31 times in the OT and 23 times in the New Testament. Clearly GOD is warning us of the punishment for failure to remain faithful to HIS Word - The Bible.

    There is NO way the book of ACTS can be used to vindicate the witchcraft which has over run formerly bible based churches leading many to forfeit their christian faith in favour of the occultic new age counterfeit dished up by the false teachers of the Latter Rain movement.

    This evil filth called the Latter Rain heresies with their false christ{s} and their false leaders is MUCH too dangerous to flirt with by those who have known the salvation offered by the TRUE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

    1 Timothy 4:1-14
    (1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times (some} shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    Clearly this is a gross understatement as the (some) referred to in this verse certainly appears to the faithful bible believing christian to be MANY. Many people seem to have forfeited their salvation in favour of this new satanic religion.

    1 John 2:18
    (18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    There is an enormous amount of SERIOUS and well researched material written by genuine bible believing christians available to ALL who want to acquaint themselves with the nature of the apostasy sweeping through previously bible based christian churches at this time in history.

    Rather than try to explain in all to you on this blog I URGE you google articles such as:

    “Anointing or Apostasy = The Legacy of the Latter Rain” by Charles Graves.

    Why is Latter Rain, Dominionism, and Kingdom Now Theology False? provides a veritable minefield of information.

    http://www.erwm.com/Latter%20Rain.htm

    Read them thoroughly and prayerfully.

    2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    1 Corinthians 16:13 Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong.

    Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

    There is ONLY ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST and HIS WORD IS AVAILABLE TO US IN THE BIBLE.

    By Anonymous on Jun 1, 2011

  136. The Latter Rain heresies refer to the false teaching which has over run previous bible based christian churches. The warning for the faithful remnant determined to remain faithful to HIS Word is found in passages such as:
    Revelations 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

    By Wayne on Jun 1, 2011

  137. Guys we will just keep the comments to the one topic stream under - “Frank Houston”

    By lance on Jun 1, 2011

  138. Thank you Lance.

    FALSE teaching always leads to FALSE living. The Latter Rain heresies such as apotheosis and Manifest Sons of God and associated extra biblical teachings have contributed to the moral dilemma amongst church leaders and were quite probably a significant factor in this outrageous behaviour by Frank Houston.

    By Wayne on Jun 2, 2011

  139. Lance is the blog Moderator so I’ll keep this short, so the FH topic may resume.
    .
    Wayne, thanks again for those 2 links - there are hundreds of pages there so it’ll take a while to read them. Catholic teachings have been analysed and listed well by you Wayne, yet your entries mentioning Latter Rain didn’t evidence the same effort. L/R had seemed like an esoteric, fairly innocuous, off-beat view of church history by some fringe-Churches, so my interest was piqued by your ‘warnings’. I’ll read through these documents in future. But what evidence do you have that FH espoused L/R teaching - I would expect there is none, as I never heard him preach any messages outside a standard pentecostal range - unsubstantiated statements that infer this don’t help people in truthful understanding of a tragic man.
    .
    Brother Kevin, thanks for that overview - Occam’s Razor is a most useful tool for people who enjoy the interplay of ideas, surely. Allegorical interpretation of the Word of God should be used in a limited way, obviously being applied to the genre of biblical literature that requires it (the parables & apocalyptic). Unwise use of this hermeneutical approach leads to all sorts of aberrations, doesn’t it - e.g. biblical numerology, biblical study of the stars, Dispensationalism, & this L/R teaching. Many of the Church Fathers used this method unfortunately and this eventually led to such ’significant’ discussions then as to how many angels could dance together on a pin’s head. The clear teaching of Scripture is just that: clear. No hidden meanings [though there is depth in their meanings - depth that does not contradict the not-so-deep meaning]. Thanks for taking the time to write that helpful comment. :-)

    By Paul on Jun 2, 2011

  140. In the Bible there are examples of God’s transforming power, that glorify Him. So called, tragic men and women, that turn to justice. Saul of Tarsus, the best example. Once a Pharisee, in authority, arresting and killing Christians like Stephen, then turning by a amazing event, and serving the Christ he once hated. Hearing of this, Christians rejoiced heartily. I think I was once like them, but after hearing my mum’s sour take on Jan Ericksson, the former gangster, I lost some of that.
    Frank Houston, was not according to Timothy’s received instructions about reputable elders. But was useful for soul winning, winning the lost and encouraging, and using the gifts of the Spirit. Teaching the same. Planting churches! Like this Frank among many others, lead us onto the times of the great conversion, the spreading of the Gospel to every reach, old and new, dark corners. The ends of the Earth. Until this is complete, there cannot be a great turning away from the faith. It is his converts, that will among others, face the test to turn away to strange new teachings.
    Frank was a man with a tragic reputation, but it did not define him. He was defined by Jesus blood.

    By Novatian on Jun 2, 2011

  141. Hello,

    Thank you Paul for your kind words.

    To be a Roman Catholic is a rather more simple journey than being a Protestant I think.

    For a starters any question can be looked up in the Catechism. I have the longer and the shorter version on my shelf. The New Advent site is an on-line Catholic Encyclopaedia.

    Any question is answered with all the relevant footnotes, councils and fathers quoted.

    We are not so fortunate as Protestants we have no such resource to quote from. Even the Anglican Prayer book has a dig at the Romish opinions.

    We have so many different protestant denominations all wanting us to sign off on some statement or another. I went to work for a christian school and bingo!: another statement of faith to sign up to.

    What is wrong with the Apostles Creed??

    I guess after 50 years or more of it I think I am now beginning to understand what the writer in Hebrews was getting at. Entering a Rest made availiable through Christ.

    It would appear to me that no matter what comment is made there will be an almost vitriolic response.
    I am inclined to believe this is more a response to do with particular personality types than some quest for a higher path in faith.

    God Bless you all.
    Brother Kevin

    By Brother Kevin on Jun 2, 2011

  142. Not wanting to stifle comments. Maybe open a new blog title - called “Latter Rain Heresies”

    By Lance on Jun 2, 2011

  143. Paul,

    His son Brian and his Hillsong church are very definitely Latter Rain with his message “You need more money” being a recurring LR dominionist theme so in the short term I will assign guilt by association to Frank.

    I will recheck my reading material for more conclusive evidence about his doctrinal position.

    However:

    The allegations about his moral failings occurred at a time in NZ when these false teachings were gaining momentum.

    The range of LR teachings which leads these people to think they are immune from judgement may well have been responsible for his willingness to remain in senior ministry positions whilst engaging in these outrageous practices and covering them up over such an extended period of time.

    By Wayne on Jun 2, 2011

  144. Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    1 Corinthians 11:2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.

    1 Corinthians 16:13 Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong.

    Titus 1:8 (W)e must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that (w)e can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

    The ultimate authority for any teacher is the Word of God as represented by the apostolic teaching passed down from the Lord Jesus (cf. John 16:12-16 with Tit. 1:9; 1 Thess. 4:1-2; 2 Thess. 3:6).

    Here is truly one of the tell-tale signs of a false teacher, namely, a rebellious spirit of independence from the truth of Scripture as the final authority. They often possess a defiant attitude toward the authority of God’s Word or to the authority of God’s servants.
    “Beware of teachers who will not put themselves under the authority of the Word of God.”

    By Wayne on Jun 2, 2011

  145. Novatian,
    The spreading of the Gospel to reach everyone, young and old, to the dark corners,and to the ends of the Earth, will indeed happen. Have you ever thought that the spreading of the Gospel can still happen without the Western Church?
    In fact the falling away can happen simultaneously as the spreading of the Gospel happens in other countries. The turning away to strange new teachings has been happening for over 30 years…..
    Jesus made it clear - Matt 13:24 - 30
    24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
    26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. <p> 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Matt 21:42,43
    –Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.</strong>Countries like USA, Australia, Europe, UK have rejected the gospel. The grace of God has been given to others

    By lance on Jun 2, 2011

  146. >The Bible tells us that the Word of God is the light that enables us to walk in the ways of God.

    Listen to Psalm 119:99, 100, 105, 130:

    “I have more insight than all my teachers, for I meditate on Thy statutes. I have more understanding than the elders, for I obey Thy precepts. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light for my path. The unfolding of Thy words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.”

    Roman opponents usually object to an appeal to Psalm 119 on the grounds that it speaks of the Word of God, not of the Bible, and therefore could include in its praise tradition as well as Scripture. Their argument is irrelevant to our use of Psalm 119, because we are using it to prove the clarity, not the sufficiency of Scripture!

    The Psalmist is saying here that the light of the Word shines so brightly and clearly that if I meditate on it and obey it, I am wiser than any teacher or elder.

    The simple can understand it.

    The Word is like a strong flashlight in a dark forest.

    It enables me to walk on the path without tripping.

    We must listen to the Scriptures so that we will act as God’s Word teaches us to act.

    Consider the story of Paul in Berea, Acts 17:10-12. Paul preached there in the synagogue and many Jews responded to his preaching with eagerness. We are told that after they listened to Paul each day they examined the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true.

    How did Paul react? Did he say that the Scriptures were not clear, and that only he as an apostle or the rabbis or the Sanhedrin could tell them what the Scriptures really meant? Or did he say that they should not expect to find the truth in the Scriptures because they were incomplete and needed to be supplemented by tradition? Or did he say that they were insulting his apostolic authority, and that they should simply submit to him as the infallible interpreter of the Bible? Or did Paul say that they should defer to Peter as the only one who could interpret the Bible?

    No! He did not say any of these things. The practice of the Bereans is praised in the Bible. They are called noble because they evaluated everything on the basis of the written Word of God.

    If we would be faithful children of God, if we would be noble, we must proceed as the Bereans did.

    We must follow the example of Moses and Paul and our Lord Jesus.

    Do not rest your confidence on the wisdom of men who claim infallibility.

    Stand rather with the Apostle Paul who wrote in 1 Corinthians 4:6, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

    By Wayne on Jun 2, 2011

  147. Novatian, you’re very right in stating that Frank’s sin did not ultimately define him, but rather it was Jesus’ blood atoning for him, once-and-for-all of his sins, that defined him. And God did use him despite the public cover-up for some decades.
    .
    How much more would God have been glorified, though, if he had admitted his real situation and submitted himself to genuine ministry of reconciliation with those he hurt… along with him submitting to church discipline. Repentance can be very personal - and sometimes it needs to extend also to the very public, or at least to all those who have been affected. Such repentance needs to be accompanied by genuine fruits such as remorse and appropriate restitution, just as a starter for real reconciliation to begin - and this should be greeted in its time with real forgiveness.
    God delights in public justice. This is the context in which mercy can occur.
    This is the type of action that in history have been part of the start of some significant region-wide Revivals.
    .
    And this is part of the lifelong walk along the narrow track following the enscripted word of God, something that is precious to those who are literate or who hear it read aloud. Each of us are called to follow Him, the Lord Jesus, the living word of God.

    By Paul on Jun 3, 2011

  148. Paul,

    My research has confirmed that Frank Houston was indeed one of the ratbag group responsible for promoting the slide of biblical pentecostal groups into neo-pentecostalism (an academic term for the false pentecostalism I have been warning about.)

    “His Australian ministry was powerful but controversial, especially as far as the Australian AOG were concerned. This was due in part to his being considered part of the Charismatic Movement, a movement which elements of the older Australian AOG leadership strongly opposed [Cartledge, 139].

    In the Queensland Conference of 1972, for example, a whole day was spent

    … debating the ministries of three men – Trevor Chandler, Robert Midgley and Frank Houston … [Houston] was considered to be the focal point of the controversial ‘New Move’. [Cartledge, 139].

    Cartledge, D, The Apostolic Revolution, The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets in the Assemblies of God in Australia, (Chester Hill, Sydney: Paraclete Institute, 2000).

    By Wayne on Jun 3, 2011

  149. I’m enjoying reading that info you supplied links to, Wayne. I may comment on it in future when I’ve read through it all, as the various authors at times are off the mark even in understanding basic theology. However most of their teachings are well-documented.
    Regarding your comment, just above, ‘neo-pentecostalism’ actually means new pentecostalism - the term for false pentecostalism is ‘pseudo-pentecostalism’. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon Christians in denominational churches during the late 1960s and early 1970s caused consternation for those who thought they had the sole franchise on this, namely the established pentecostal denominations, for they couldn’t contain this and get more official members. It was all new, and the ecclesiastics had to decide their response to it. For pentecostalists it was a new move of God and it was such for those who were involved in it, who preferred the name charismatic movement (acknowledging the gift of grace they had received in this). There was also concern evident in other types of denominations too due to fear that they would lose members and adherents. Many kinds of responses evolved including creating new Departments within the denomination to ‘manage’ it, i.e. the Renewal. Some freelance Baptists went around in Sydney “discerning the spirits” when someone in their flock was identified as having become a tongues-speaker, a gift BTW which most disapproved of due to a cessationist theology. Makes you wonder how often the gifted one got the tick of approval from Motherwell and Co, doesn’t it.
    .
    The A/G conference discussing these 3 men you speak of was probably perplexed by the very apparent success in ministry by these individuals as AT THAT TIME none of them were denominationalists. Is there ANY EVIDENCE that the conference discussion was on Latter Rain teaching by them, or by one of them?
    .
    Remember, this was a time when the Jesus Revolution was in its ascendancy too - and it had attracted all kinds of people from different subcultures - bikers, hippies, surfers, prostitutes, long-time churchgoers - on finding salvation and life in Christ, joined Christian groups that could cope with them - I myself was given the left-boot of fellowship in an Anglican church once.
    I’m thankful for your effort Wayne but it seems a tenuous association at best from reading this. Wouldn’t Frank have used his frequent preaching opportunities at Hills Christian Life Centre (the pre-Hillsong name) to include this L/R teaching if he believed it? He never did while I was part of that CLC when it grew from 40 people to around 900 people. So far it only appears to be ‘mud-throwing’ on this issue. (Why not get access to the ACC-AoG archives of that conference to find out the actual discussion transcripts?)

    By Paul on Jun 4, 2011

  150. This demonic filth referred to as neo-pentecostalism is far too dangerous for flippancy Paul. Some people previously raised in the Word may see the nonsense they are caught up in and repent and this would be a wonderful bonus for that person on the judgement day.

    I am NOT speaking literally Paul regarding the terms. Neo-pentecostalism literally means new pentecostalism, of course, however there is NO need for new pentecostalism when the old paths are the correct paths in terms of the clear teachings of scripture.

    FALSE TEACHING IS ALWAYS FALSE TEACHING and ALWAYS WILL BE. In the sense that the Word of God NEVER changes and neither does GOD HIMSELF this Latter Rain or neo pentecostalism nonsense is clearly false. FAR MORE EVIDENCE HAS BEEN PROVIDED THAN IS NECCESSARY TO CONVINCE THOSE WHO ARE OPEN TO THE WORD OF GOD.

    My reference to it as false pentecostalism is very clearly the meaning I intended to convey.

    Sadly many people are going to hell deceived by this religious nonsense largely in fulfillment of very significant portions of Bible prophecy about the end time apostasy and delusion sent by God to those who do NOT love the TRUTH.

    Misrepresenting the TRUTH of the WORD of GOD DOES NOT CHANGE THE TRUTH and such liars will be despatched to hell with all who refuse to submit to the Word of God.

    The consternation was among bible based leaders who were concerned, for example, that people were claiming a Holy Spirit baptism was leading them further away from the Bible such that things such as the Rosary, worship of Mary, occultic healings and New Age activities confirmed by their international leader Benjamin Creme as wholly New Age were made more meaningful to them.

    Biblical christians, of coure, realize that God would NEVER send along a move of the Holy Spirit which would render HIS previous teachings false. The Holy Spirit works in accordance with The Word Of God - The Bible and NEVER against it.

    These wicked men have presumed to have a revelation which surpasses and over rules the previous teaching of scripture and clearly this is where it is so obviously DEMONIC in origin.

    For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ, ‘ and will deceive many. … and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people (Matthew 24:5, 11).

    For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time (Matthew 24:24-25).

    In Revelation, Jesus warned us about the Great Deception that is coming.

    Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth (Revelation 13:11-14).

    Paul wrote much about the return of Christ and warned us against being deceived. He provided a specific test to ensure we are not deceived about the timing of the Day of the Lord and the return of Christ. The Day of the Lord cannot come until ‘the man of lawlessness is revealed.’ Paul explains, that the ‘the man of lawlessness’ will be revealed when he goes into the temple of God and declares that he is God.

    Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).

    Deception is ever present but the days are coming and have come when most people will be deceived. Deception will continue to increase until the Day of the Lord and the return of Christ. When Christ returns, however, the one responsible for the deception will then be prevented from deceiving the nations again until the 1,000 years have ended.

    He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended (Revelation 20:3).

    Deception: Those deceived don’t know it!

    Trust in Yahweh with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear Yahweh and shun evil (Proverbs 3:5-7).

    Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free” (John 8:31-32).

    FAITHFULNESS TO HIS REVEALED WORD IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL

    By Wayne on Jun 4, 2011

  151. I am deeply concerned at the unbiblical, anti biblical and super biblical sentiments expressed by people obviously misrepresenting themselves as christians to the scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive and thereby influencing the extent and scale of apostasy so evident in the “christian” church today.

    The subject of Babylon in the Scripture is one of the prominent themes of the Bible beginning in Genesis 10, where the city of Babel is first mentioned, with continued references throughout the Scriptures climaxing here in the book of Revelation.
    From these various passages, it becomes clear that Babylon in Scripture is the name for a great system of religious error. Babylon is actually a counterfeit or pseudo religion which plagued Israel in the Old Testament as well as the church in the New Testament, and which, subsequent to apostolic days, has had a tremendous influence in moving the church from biblical simplicity to apostate confusion.
    In keeping with the satanic principle of offering a poor substitute for God’s perfect plan, Babylon is the source of counterfeit religion sometimes in the form of pseudo Christianity, sometimes in the form of pagan religion. Its most confusing form, however, is found in Romanism. In the Scriptures themselves, though many of these facts are not mentioned, there are a number of allusions to the conflict of the true faith with this pseudo religion.
    Ezekiel protests against the ceremony of weeping for Tammuz in Ezekiel 8:14. Jeremiah mentions the heathen practices of making cakes for the queen of heaven (Jer. 7:18) and offering incense to the queen of heaven (Jer. 44:17-19, 25). The worship of Baal, characteristic of pagan religion in Canaan, was another form of this same mystery religion originating in Babylon. Baal is considered identical to Tammuz. The doctrines of the mystery religions of Babylon seem to have permeated the ancient world, giving rise to countless mystery religions, each with its cult and individual beliefs offering a counterfeit religion and a counterfeit god in opposition to the ONE true God REVEALED IN THE SCRIPTURES.

    Babylon as an evil woman is portrayed in the prophecy of Zechariah 5:1-11 where the woman of verse 7 is described as personifying wickedness in verse 8.
    The Babylonian cult eventually made its way to other cities including Pergamos, the site of one of the seven churches of Asia. The chief priests of the Babylonian cult wore crowns in the form of the head of a fish, in recognition of Dagon the fish god, with the title “Keeper of the Bridge,” that is, the “bridge” between man and Satan, imprinted on the crowns. The Roman equivalent of the title, Pontifex Maximus, was used by the Caesars and later Roman emperors, and was also adopted as the title for the bishop of Rome. In the early centuries of the church in Rome, incredible confusion arose; and attempts were made to combine some of the features of the mystery religion of Babylon with the Christian faith, a confusion which has continued down to the present day.
    In this chapter in Revelation, the last stage of counterfeit religion is revealed as it will be in existence in the period before the return of the Lord to earth.
    It is a sad commentary on contemporary Christendom that it shows an overwhelming desire to return to Rome in spite of Rome’s evident apostasy from true biblical Christianity. In fact, modern liberalism has far outdone Rome in its departure from the theology of the early church, thus has little to lose by a return to Romanism. Apostasy, which is seen in its latent form today, will flower in its ultimate form in this future superchurch which will apparently engulf all Christendom in the period after the rapture of the church.

    “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV)

    In 1948 a movement was born that has become the foundation of the great apostasy that the Apostle
    Paul warned us would come prior to the return of our Lord. Known as the New Order of the Latter Rain or
    just the Latter Rain Movement its influence has steadily grown within the Pentecostal and Charismatic
    Churches since 1948. Today, through the influence of various “revivals” its leaven is spreading even further
    into the Evangelical world.

    An apostasy or “falling away” is essentially a rebellion of God’s people against His Word.
    Rebelling against the New Testament picture of the Church in the last days as a despised remnant of
    the faithful holding on until the rapture, they began to develop a heretical doctrine of a triumphant Church –
    conquering the world and bringing in the kingdom of Christ. The first time the Church adopted such a
    theology it resulted in the development of Roman Catholicism and ushered in the Dark Ages. This time the
    result will be much the same but of a much shorter duration. It will produce the one-world ecumenical
    church, “The Great Harlot” that will triumph for a short time under Anti-Christ – “Drunken with the blood of
    the saints and martyrs of Jesus.”

    It came to be taught that the “Latter Rain” revival of 1948 was to be the first in a series of
    “restorational moves of God” that would restore to the Church all of the truths that Satan had “robbed” her
    of. The five-fold ministries of apostles and prophets would also be restored to the church. These restored
    “apostles” and “prophets” would lead the Church into “present truth” and the “last great moves of God.”
    Eventually when the Church was mature enough the “rapture” would occur. But the rapture of the Latter
    Rain would be a much different rapture than the Church had ever taught before. It would be a “spiritual”
    coming of Christ into His Church, His “corporate body.” A “corporate anointing.” The saints would be
    “glorified”, even “deified” – right here on this earth. This overcoming army of saints believes it will go
    forth conquering and triumphing over all of it’s enemies in the Great Tribulation. When they are done Christ
    will be “released from the heavens”, to come and take control of the kingdom they have established.

    This doctrine is known as the “Manifest Sons of God” or “Sonship” and has spread throughout the
    Evangelical Church through the Charismatic and Kingdom/Dominion Movements. The Latter Rain
    “revivals” that are occurring in Toronto, Pensecola, and various other places are popularizing and spreading
    this heresy at an alarming rate. It is known popularly today as “Joel’s Army”. Thousands of Christians are
    coming into a strong delusion because they did not receive the love of the truth. While they may have
    received the truth, they did not have a love for it and have therefore fallen away from it. They are trading
    their blessed hope for an earthly delusion.

    By Wayne on Jun 4, 2011

  152. Trust in Yahweh with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear Yahweh and shun evil (Proverbs 3:5-7).

    Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free” (John 8:31-32).

    FAITHFULNESS TO HIS REVEALED WORD IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL

    By Wayne on Jun 4, 2011

  153. I’m not being flippant, friend. We’ve had many conversations on these various posts as readers are aware. My concern is that gross overstatements of truth have been made which come across as slander, and when anyone asks for external evidence, there generally is none. Instead some contributors just dump pages and pages of Biblical passages, or of someone’s articles, onto the posting - much of which is just copied & pasted from other websites. With an effect of being hammered by a sledgehammer, Wayne.
    And so real questions as to the nature of things are treated with what appears to be contempt for those who raise them, and are put aside after ‘the dumping’. Without substantiated evidence it is nothing but hot air.

    By Paul on Jun 5, 2011

  154. On this we can agree…

    In 1948 a movement was born that has become the foundation of the great apostasy that the Apostle Paul warned us would come prior to the return of our Lord. Known as the New Order of the Latter Rain or just the Latter Rain Movement its influence has steadily grown within the Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches since 1948. Today, through the influence of various “revivals” its leaven is spreading even further into the Evangelical world.

    An apostasy or “falling away” is essentially a rebellion of God’s people against His Word.
    Rebelling against the New Testament picture of the Church in the last days as a despised remnant of the faithful holding on until the rapture, they began to develop a heretical doctrine of a triumphant Church – conquering the world and bringing in the kingdom of Christ. The first time the Church adopted such a theology it resulted in the development of Roman Catholicism and ushered in the Dark Ages.
    This time the result will be much the same but of a much shorter duration. It will produce the one-world ecumenical church, “The Great Harlot”

    It came to be taught that the “Latter Rain” revival of 1948 was to be the first in a series of “restorational moves of God” that would restore to the Church all of the truths that Satan had “robbed” her of.

    The five-fold ministries of apostles and prophets would also be restored to the church. These restored“apostles” and “prophets” would lead the Church into “present truth” and the “last great moves of God.”

    Eventually when the Church was mature enough the “rapture” would occur. But the rapture of the Latter Rain would be a much different rapture than the Church had ever taught before. It would be a “spiritual” coming of Christ into His Church, His “corporate body.”

    A “corporate anointing.” The saints would be
    “glorified”, even “deified” – right here on this earth. This overcoming army of saints believes it will go forth conquering and triumphing over all of it’s enemies in the Great Tribulation. When they are done Christ
    will be “released from the heavens”, to come and take control of the kingdom they have established.

    This doctrine is known as the “Manifest Sons of God” or “Sonship” and has spread throughout the Evangelical Church through the Charismatic and Kingdom/Dominion Movements. The Latter Rain
    “revivals” that are occurring in Toronto, Pensecola, and various other places are popularizing and spreading this heresy at an alarming rate. It is known popularly today as “Joel’s Army”. Thousands of Christians are
    coming into a strong delusion because they did not receive the love of the truth. While they may have received the truth, they did not have a love for it and have therefore fallen away from it.

    They are trading their blessed hope for an earthly delusion.

    By lance on Jun 5, 2011

  155. The moral failings of Frank Houston are quite likely related to false doctrine and in this case that false doctrine is highly likely to be this Latter Rain filth.

    In view of his confession to his son of long term homosexual paedophilia even conducted in his ministerial office it is NO wonder whatsoever that Godly leaders of the AoG with a high regard for the Bible as the Word of God were concerned about his impact on the christian church in Australia.

    Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

    Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate

    Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

    IF YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO ACCEPT THE TSUNAMI OF EVIDENCE AND INFORMATION PROVIDED

    Do your own recently and investigation…..

    Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    Notice in almost every New Testament epistle (whether Pauline, Johannine or otherwise) there are admonitions against sexual immorality and idolatry (which by the way comes in many different forms- in Colossians 3:5 it is linked to covetousness). There are warnings to “be not deceived” and that those “who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Though we may never know in this life all the facets of Nicolaitan doctrine, we can be sure of several things. They taught contrary to the revealed commands of God- they taught in a Christian setting- God hated their deeds and their doctrine. These reasons alone are enough to consider their error, lest we follow after the same example.

    I CAN DO NO MORE THAN PROVIDE THE INFORMATION WHICH MAY LEAD SOME APOSTATE CHRISTIANS BACK TO CHRIST. The Bible however clearly indicates that MOST will refuse to accept this as they have been blinded by delusion.

    FOR YOUR INFORMATION

    The term anti christ literally means against Christ BUT the biblical context is that of an alternative to Christ able to deceive people who falsely believe they are following Christ.

    This is the context in which serious bible believing bible scholars use it.

    Similar to the Pope and the act of popery in general ANTICHRIST in the context of an alternative to the REAL JESUS CHRIST is what these evil Latter Rain leaders presenting themselves as “anointed ones” who must NOT be questioned actually are.

    Genuine bible believing leaders of the AoG prior to its spiritual demise were concerned with the spread of this demonic nonsense when they were overrun by their adversaries the proponents of the Latter rain compromise.

    I have discussed this with significant numbers of GODLY former leaders and am so disgusted by what has transpired that I personally refuse to allow myself to be deceived by cohorts of the Latter Rain leaders.

    The false church which they now preside over may also be seen as anti christ in the sense that they are actually presenting association with their organisation without sound doctrine as providing a means of salvation of its own accord.

    The evidence provided in support of this is absolutely overwhelming and MUST NOT be ignored by all serious minded bible believing christians.

    The widespread acceptance of this demonic nonsense necessitates a NO nonsense approach by all who have been granted the grace of God to see through this demonic delusion.

    There can be NO compromise with the devil whatsoever on any level.

    I have provided much of this evidence myself but in many cases have referred to excellent material provided by people committed to the Word of God as the sole basis of TRUTH.

    As stated before I am NOT going to reinvent the wheel for people who refuse to accept the TRUTH anyway.

    I was aware of this gross apostasy long before the evidence became available to me and I thank God for HIS GRACE in this respect.

    You will just have to do your own research Paul.

    By Wayne on Jun 5, 2011

  156. “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV)

    By Wayne on Jun 5, 2011

  157. Wayne, hide behind your “tsunami” of name-calling if you will… but don’t think for a moment that you’ve PROVED that Frank was teaching ‘Latter Rain’ movement teaching. A single quote from David Cartledge’s book has not given any so-called evidence, and one book doesn’t pass as adequate research. To purport that it did either is to deceive readers who may not be familiar with some of the persons mentioned.
    .
    I wasn’t a fan of his (read my comments on this post above from December ‘07 onwards) and found much of his preaching was fairly superficial and typical of AoG preachers I’d heard (Aeron Morgan was an exception). Yet I also don’t accept your assertions above as reliable. I’ve never heard of a linkage of FH to L/R teaching - that doesn’t mean he didn’t hold to it, AND SILENCE ON IT DOESN’T MEAN HE DID HOLD TO IT.
    .
    Asking me to do the research is evidence of your ‘guilty until proven innocent’ approach and thus you seem to enjoy your defaming comments towards his life. You are not in balance on this as you yourself have the onus and the obligation to provide the evidence to back-up these assertions you make. I’m interested in truth, Wayne, not hot air.
    .
    Above, on this post, you will read my comments about the poor ethics of many Christians and their leaders - FYI I’m not the only ‘potato’ or ‘Paul’ writing here, so be aware of that too. I would like to see ethical use of various facts replace the seeming fabrications, brother. And Neopentecostalism is NOT what you claim it to be./p>
    Your grasp on the NT teaching about false prophets, etc, is quite sound. Your application of this by slandering others is unsound. Please consider what the New Testament teaches about slander and slanderers.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jun 6, 2011

  158. Paul, only faithfulness to HIS Word will save any of us from deception in these last days.

    Your persistent refusal to accept reality is clearly a matter you will have to deal with on the Judgement Day.

    FALSE TEACHING IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE FALSE TEACHING. THE BIBLE IS PROVIDED FOR THOSE HUMBLY SUBMITTED TO HIS WORD AS THE SOLE BASIS FOR KNOWING HOW TO LIVE A LIFE PLEASING TO HIM.

    As mere mortals we are forbidden from tampering with the clear instructions of the Word of God in any way.

    Matthew 24:24, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”

    When we take the context of the chapter, we can see that Jesus is warning everyone to be on guard and not be deceived by those who “come in His Name (christians), saying He is Christ (teaching that Jesus is Christ) and deceiving many.

    He then gives quite a number of ways for us to NOT be deceived.

    Matthew 24:
    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)?
    4 ¶ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you(or spirit being for that matter).
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (Many will preach that Jesus is the Christ.)
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. (The beginning of the Great Tribulation).
    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”

    The way of God is foolishness to the people of this society, and God says the ways of this society are foolishness to Him.

    This foolishness to the people of the world is the cross NOT the occultic silliness which many religious people seem to want to go on with. God has never asked us to have faith in anything that was silly and without a rational and logical foundation.

    When we “glory in men”, we begin to deceive ourselves.
    When we place our total trust in men whether they seem to be preachers of righteousness or not, we are deceiving ourselves.

    The word ‘deceive’ in the above scriptures is from the Greek word that means “to deceive.” It is not the same word that is translated ‘deceive’ in other scriptures that caution us about someone who is trying to deceive or seduce us to believe what they want us to believe. That word means deluding or seducing to draw us away from the path of God.
    I Cor. 3:
    18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool (let him reject worldly wisdom and accept Godly wisdom), that he may be wise.
    19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
    21 ¶ Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

    Who are the elect? Part of that answer is shown in Isaiah.

    Isa 45:4 “For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

    Isa 65:9 “And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
    Isa 65:22 “They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

    This shows that all the children of Israel (Jacob) were chosen by God as His Elect. They were chosen to be an example to the rest of the world as to how God’s Blessing caused a nation to prosper and grow. They weren’t chosen because they were the smartest, most handsome, or greatest. They were chosen because they were the least of all the nations (I Cor. 1:26-30). God intended to show His greatness by blessing the nation of Israel to cause the rest of the world to desire those blessings and turn to God.

    As has been said, there is a duality in the Scriptures pertaining to many things. Duality is also shown in the scriptures about Israel. There is a physical Israel (all twelve tribes), and there is a spiritual Israel composed of Spirit Begotten people who believe God and Jesus and accept Jesus as their saviour.

    Those are mentioned in Matthew 24:22:

    “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

    These are spiritual Israel as shown in the following verse.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    There will, of course, be those of the tribes of Israel that have not made a commitment to follow Christ. These will NOT be in that gathering of the First Fruits. Only those who are truly Christian will be in that resurrection. Everyone else will either be dead, captive, or live on over into the Millennium.

    Now, what about this group called “the very elect?”

    The word elect is ‘eklektos’ meaning chosen by God to obtain salvation through Christ. That word means the best of its kind or class, excellence, preeminence: applied to certain individual Christians.

    There you have the definition of the physical elect, and the spiritual elect.

    The elect were chosen by God to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ whenever they would repent and turn to Him as their saviour. Those who repented and turned to Him are described as the best of its kind or class, excellence, preeminence. It is also applied to certain individual Christians.

    There is the distinct possibility that within the elect is a group of certain individual Christians that are referred to as the very elect. That is also implied in I Cor. 11:

    19 For there must be also heresies (unbiblical, anti biblical or super biblical teachings) among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest (shown openly) among you.

    I don’t know if there is a “very elect”. It seems to be implied in several places, but I can’t stand up and definitely say “yes, there is a very elect.”

    If this verse is referring to a “very elect” it is also saying that they can’t be deceived about FALSE CHRISTS AND FALSE PROPHETS. It DOES NOT SAY they can’t be deceived about other things, since we know the scriptures show the whole world has been deceived and that the church has been subject to deception.

    What everyone should do is KEEP THEIR NOSE IN GOD’S WORD and believe the Gospel!!!

    When we know the scriptures, and understand them through the power of God’s Holy Spirit, we won’t be deceived about the salvational points of His Word.

    If there is such a group we need to strive to be in it! It should cause one to stop and think, asking themselves “Am I really grounded in the Word of God? Could Satan take away my crown?”

    It is possible, you know. The scriptures in Revelation 2 and 3 show there are people who are “holding on to what they have.” There are also others who are doing the commission Christ gave us to do and producing fruit from our labors. This, of course, implies that there are others who are being deceived and could lose their crown (position in God’s Family).

    Let’s pray we are a part of the “very elect” (if that group exists). Let’s hold on to what we have and go forward preaching and teaching the True Gospel to this world!

    By Wayne on Jun 6, 2011

  159. Acceptance of this Latter Rain falsehood is just like any other form of rejection of the Word of God.

    Gen 6:3 And Jehovah said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, in his erring;

    The present day blindness is hard to fathom.

    This Scripture about the Lord not always striving with man is a very scary Scripture.
    When the heart is so hard and has consistantly rejected the Lord then they are allowed to follow their free will. In the end, when we stand before the Lord, we will rejoice in His perfect judgement.

    Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

    By Wayne on Jun 6, 2011

  160. An interesting point for Bible honouring christians to consider.

    One of the profound things Paul states is found in Romans 8 verses 21 and 22:

    “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.”

    Professing to be wise, they became fools.”

    When man tells God “I have no need of you” and proceeds to change the glory of God into idols made with his own hands, there are sure to be severe consequences, and there are as recorded in the rest of the chapter.

    The direct result of man’s utter rejection of the sovereignty of God is verse 24:

    “Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,”

    How does man get to this decrepit state? Verse 25 tells us:

    “Who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen”

    Any time the truth of God is exchanged for the lie there is going to major problems. But, when it goes to the next level of worshipping the created thing more than the Creator-that is when God has no choice but to, as it says at the start of verse 26; “For this reason God gave them up to vile passions.” Once again, just as in verse 24, God is forced to give people up to that which is vile and wicked because it is what the people lust after.

    No verse better summarizes this section and serves as the stepping stone for showing all the horrible acts of unrighteousness, as verse 28:
    “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting.”

    Finally we get to verse 32 which more or less summarizes the whole situation:

    “Who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things (the 23 things just listed) are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.”

    Frank Houston confessed to homosexual paedophilia.

    The number of leaders of this demonic Latter Rain filth who have been found to have homosexuality as their preferred moral perversion is absolutely astounding.

    Do any of you bible honouring christians who might happen to be reading this particular blog see any significance in this connection between leadership in this apostasy and the perversion of homosexuality or is this more likely to be purely coincidental?

    Why Does God Give People Over to Sin?

    Romans 1:18-32

    “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.”
    Romans 1:18 NKJV

    By Wayne on Jun 6, 2011

  161. Hello all.

    Dear friends there appears to be a jolly old “to and fro” over the above issues; namely the “Later Rain” theological theories and matters “Babylonian”.

    I would first like to suggest that I have not found Mr.Potato (or Paul) has presented himself any way “flippant” at all. My reading of his correspondence is that of a pilgrim on his “Faith Journey”. In fact all those who have contributed to this forum appear to be greatly committed and indeed earnest in “working out their salvation journey”.

    The comments by Wayne are in fact quite valid. His references about the “Babylonian” influences on Christendom are in fact correct.
    I think most serious Bible Students are aware of the “Two Babylon’s”; a monumental work on this subject. I believe that the scholar involved was in fact an Anglican vicar. The Reverend Hislop. Another good resource and background can be found in Barnes’ Notes on the Bible. This is a very good commentary set and has been reprinted. Scholars of his era were recipients of “Classical” education and write from great understanding and background.

    The statement is made “Come ye out of her my people,” and so on. Well it may be worthwhile to suggest that not much of present day “Christendom” is particularly an un- muddied stream!!
    I won’t go into verses and references but I will recommend a great little book. “Pagan Christianity” by the well known duo: Frank Viola and George Barna. This is a mini encyclopaedia dealing with the effects of past pagan practises and antiquities on our present state in Christendom.

    This work shows that the majority of our church practises are directly distilled from pagan and in some cases possibly demonic roots.
    If this be the case; and I have no doubt that it is’ then we have a great deal to “come out of.”

    Paul commented on the Anglican Church and child baptism. Yes there are many including myself who are very “uneasy” with this practice. There are many in the community who feel uncomfortable with this and other “old ways”. Any scholar of antiquity could inform you that the rite practiced in infant baptism is far from original. The Romish practice is a direct copy of the joyful initiation to Tammuz.
    There are moves here and there for reform and I believe in time this will come. We pray and act to this end.

    The doctrines of the “Real Presence” and “Infant Baptism” were in fact two doctrines which were dipped in blood. Consult some church history about this. Many were tormented and slaughtered over these ideas.

    The church indeed has a terrible history. I wonder how we would have gone if we were slammed into history 800 years ago??
    Would we be persecuted? Or; would we be the persecutors. Hard un-yielding views on so called truth generally turn people into persecutors I fancy.

    Much has been claimed about the plain reading of scripture; and the plain obvious meaning.

    God help those who differ.

    Let me throw a “little cat” among the pigeons on this. I accept that the documents as originally penned are the inspired God Breathed texts. This is in fact the position of the Lockman Foundation that administers the NASB. The English translations are just that; translations. As translations a fair bit of background is required to fully appreciate some positions. Translators change proper nouns. Translators phrase some passages in a way that does not conflict too greatly with old accepted quotations and so on. Just read a few different bibles and see. However I am sure most of you will have all ready done this.

    I draw as example, your attention to 1 Tim 2:12.
    You will all be aware of this verse regarding women. This verse is the “upstanding Christian misogynists” key verse. I will point out that the rendering of this verse in the English translations has been used over the years to keep women in their place. I will not suffer a “Woman to teach or have authority over a man.”
    Women have been teaching children for centuries. Basically this text should read; “I will not allow women to teach authorship or the creation of women first.” Paul goes on to say; “Because Adam was first created and then Eve.”

    Paul was in fact challenging a current Gnostic Goddess theology regarding these views on creation and cosmology. The Goddess created women and men were created by woman and so on.

    Yes I know you will want the substantiation so I will refer you to a source that does a good job on this point. The NASB Key Word Study Bible.
    This is a terrific resource and is edited by Spiros Zodhiates and published by AMG. He discusses this point well in the footnotes so there is no real value in spending time writing a Greek dissertation on this.
    I point this detail out merely to in fact illustrate a point. The point being that a some what faulty English rendition of a translation has made life hell for many women.

    Women are great; I’m married to one. Some women are highly qualified and more interesting to listen to than a lot of boring crusty old preachers.

    To change the pace a bit: I myself am not a “Dispensationalist”; but I am beggared to see how this theory is in any way satanic or otherwise. I am aware that my SD Adventist friends take a somewhat historicist approach. Pentecostals generally hold a “Futurist” school and spiritualise a great deal. My personal position is a strong leaning toward the “Praeteristic” school accepting that there is still a lot more to come! However I do not “Believe” this position as such; rather from the evidences based on wide research this seems to me to hold the weightier sway. That’s all.

    These are just different theories and all quite interesting.

    I very much doubt that they will have decision making finality on our eternal destiny. I do not believe that favouring the Praeteristic school of view makes me a candidate for eternal butt frying. If that was the case we would be best to avoid God at all cost. I think men like Hitler and Pol Pot would take on a much “Rosier Glow”.

    People want and need a sense of “Community”.
    This is right, good and healthy. I would go as far as saying I believe that God designed us to be so. “It is not good for man to be alone.”

    “Forsake not the assemblage.” We as human beings were made for community. The doctrine of the Trinity as described by Basil and the Cappadocian fathers describe the God-head as such. Their explanation was in terms of a circle dance. An involvement in interplay. The Trinity described as a community.

    People stay in various fellowships because of friendship, fellowship, children make friends and this for parents is a deep and powerful force. I would suggest that most Christians I meet are “Biblically illiterate.”
    A conversation about the latest footy game holds more animated interest than the great prophecy of Daniel. That mighty kick over the goal post by Bubba holds more excitement than some boring old Jew who died on a cross somewhere or other in history. Unfortunately I find this to be a reality in our current church life.

    I love hearing sermons interspersed with “Footy Jokes and Metaphor”. They are real crowd pleasers. Unfortunately I have never followed footy so these inspired gems are a little above me.

    So Wayne I am not sure how you can get you message “Out There”. If all these people sever friendships, fellowship and community where will they go?

    I witnessed this sort of thing way back in the terrific 1960’s. What a great time to have lived! Paul the Potato mentioned this era. I think it was a wonderful time to be growing up in NZ. I have great memories of a more open sense of Christian interplay than we do today.

    I played the “Folk Scene”; mixed with Pentecostals, Baptists, Brethren, Anglicans, Adventists; what a great era, what a great time!!

    My personal view is that we have lost an enormous amount over the years. It would seem that people have retreated back into their biggoted little corners.

    I witnessed folk who were “coming out” of this or that Christian context. A house church church was set up and then bingo! They have to heed God’s call and “come ye out” yet again.
    My observation was that it screwed a lot of kids up because of the rather fickle behaviour. You’d no sooner make some friends and have to move on. The reasons were discussed in hushed tones; something to do with Satan, Succubus, Belial and a host of other strange reasons. Oh well brother “so and so” is; well way off. We better be careful or we will fall under the same judgment and curse as his family will!!!
    My observations were that it fragmented a lot of people.
    Brother “so and so” went on to do quite well and is employing 20 people and generously contributing to the local community and still loves Jesus!!

    Wayne you paint a picture of a real “Barstard” God. He seems to be salivating just waiting to slam you for the slightest misunderstanding.

    If we are to understand what God is like then my thought would be to observe Christ. It would seem to me that when Jesus says, “You see me; you see the father.” I would take that to mean that as we observe the “Incarnate word in flesh” we get a better picture of what God is about. Jesus was not a mental case; nor was he a brutal narcissistic adolescent fixated with his own unstable self image. He taught us that God is Love. Yes he had the odd fisticuffs with the Pharisees. The reason would appear that they did not want reform and were happy to stop others from doing so.

    Christ came to set us free; not fill us with dread and terror. We are offered the “Gift of Eternal Life”.

    I am certainly open to advice on all this. I am still willing to learn; in fact I enjoy learning new things.

    I will be frank with you though; blasting me will a hundred weight of verses and quotes is worthless really. I would rather hear a more “real expression” from the pains and difficulties of your own “personal faith journey”. In that I can hear the man, the theologian who has wrestled and struggled, who has indeed fought with God. Then I feel there may be some thing good there that may “Inspire” and in fact “Touch and teach us.” Your “facts” and “details” are good.
    But I am aware of every point you make and quote. I have studied, read and researched over the last 50 years of my journey. I have good library at home. Many books on church history, antiquities, theology, collector’s treasures you name it; and are familiar with them all.
    I have enough facts and details to send me insane. I am aware that at the end of all this research we do not all agree on the same details.

    I have regular discussions with friends in the priesthood and clergy. I have friends who are quite competant in language; and all have differing views on this and that.

    We all agree that Christ came in the flesh (incarnation) and came to save us. We a free to enter a “Faith Journey” with Him. We are like Abraham; we have left where we were and are on a journey to the kingdom.

    If we are to “come out” of everything what do you suggest we come too? Is our God hard nosed and vindictive, or have I misunderstood??

    With Christian Affection,
    God Bless,
    Brother Kevin

    By Brother Kevin on Jun 7, 2011

  162. I came across this website tonight doing a search for Danny Nahlia. Why you may ask? Basically because he has just announced his new political party and I wanted to know more about him.

    In my search I found many accusations leveled at him mainly on the grounds of being a false prophet, etc. Its all there @ google if you havent yet looked.

    I came to this page and found this discussion very interesting in regard F. Houston, Hillsong, CLC, pentecostalism, modern church, sexual sin, ministry etc.

    I have always thought the mixing of church and politics anathema to the spirit of Christ, yet we see it more and more in this country, aping to a degree American trends. This brings me to Houston who I remember one time clearly saying that Christianity could not be legislated. I often as a young Christian pondered what this meant.

    I also remember him saying one time that the Holiness movements (from which the early pentecostals sprang) were prone to error and legalism. From my POV, also being a dedicated member of the True Vine Community, where holiness almost seemed to be natural and effortless, yes like David above I too was celibate for many years, Franks’ statements seemed odd to me at the time.

    Our strict discipleship regime was also frowned upon by Houston and the CLC clique from Sydney who somehow arrogated the success of the community to their movement. At the same time they would say things like ‘we’ find it hard to understand how you are saved and still hippies or some thing to that effect. The instance mentioned above by a former member of TVCC when two zoot suited members of CLC came to True Vine after its demise and Frank’s disincarnate dismaying video message I recall, imbuing the community with a feeling of abandonment The new ‘pastors’ too parroted this judgmental sentiment based on appearance actually verbatim to me at the time. It was then I realized the true depth of their cultural christianity - I think today’s Hillsong movement is the fruit of that cultural seed.

    We of course in our spiritual pride, which Frank was dead right about, looked upon the city christians as less than disciples and definitely the city church had far more leeway for ‘worldy’ activities than us- our Babylon was Byron Bay, a place we were warned would lead us into sin, out of fellowship and out of the community, which in fact for many had become a surrogate parent: and thus the more cultic aspect of the community; and also the negative responses of those who felt conned when it blew apart.

    For sure the glory was definitely there, yet it ended as do all revivals. Houston preached one night in a tin shed in a small place owned by the community. There were 50-80 people in there and the wheels of heaven were definitely turning. Prophecy seemed his forte: staggering words of knowledge and tongues, and I will always remember his eyes on fire that night. He definitely left an impression, and was always held up by the leaders of the community as our leader and importantly our Shepherd, as the shepherding movement was then also in vogue as taught by a community in the Blue Mountains.

    Houston however wasnt into this movement as I believe they personified the legalism and dangers he mentioned. The pastor of True Vine sought to exert an absolute authority over the members of the community through his discipleship, submission doctrine, claiming to be in submission to Frank, but in the end that was revealed to be no more than a tenuous linkage- basically he called the shots and had little or no real accountability to Frank or any one. Hence another super saint bit the dust.

    Frank Houston at the time was a spiritual giant in many people’s eyes. Do I think he was actively pursuing his sin? No.

    I believe he struggled with it as a conflicted soul and the lord used him because it more than likely broke him at times. Is there any christian who has never sinned? or sinned then sought forgiveness and gone on in ministry and growth? Yes.

    I think in Houston’s case it just overcame him and he was unable to resist. He needed counseling and discipline and perhaps never received that or never went through the correct confessional repentance. Moreso, he became big, successfull, great, forgetful and fell.

    I also remember him talking about the opprobrium suffered by the little pentecostal groups from main stream christianity in days gone by and how CLC was on its way to becoming a denomination. This seemed to fill him with something: affirmation, respect, acceptance, a sense of worth. I saw that and wondered about it at the time, was he insecure, was he fighting for recognition? for the acceptance of the world? all of this I thought then forgot until tonight. Id give F. Houston the benefit of the doubt- id say he struggled and fell, a conflicted soul unwilling to let go of his ministerial identity.

    Frank fell through the sins of the flesh. Everyone is shocked at his duplicity, and carnality, at his sexual deviance. We can surmise his success and pride, his ministerial achievements and following did not allow him to consider pulling out and dealing with his deep issues as a humbled lay person, which any gospel minister should do if encumbered by habitual sin.

    His sexual sin is shocking to all and easily judged. There are also sins of the spirit, less detectable. One cannot serve God and Mammon are the words of Jesus, specific words rarely taught or even mentioned nowadays. Materialistic doctrines propagated by Houston jnr. and the innocuous self centredness and pride that comes with this teaching are also grave sins, perhaps not of the flesh, but definitely of the spirit and no less damaging than those of Houston senior.

    By James on Jun 7, 2011

  163. Hello All.

    Dear Wayne,
    I have been reading your correspondence with interest: Would you clarify just one single point for me?

    You make a statement that I have heard innumerable times yet without much sense.

    ‘Only those who are “truly Christian” will be in that resurrection.’

    My question is not about resurrection theories of which there are a few. Scholars have differing opinions on how all this goes down.

    Be assured I am familiar with them all; and then some.

    Yes I am familiar with all the schools of thought including the “Second Chance” White Throne theory. I’ve witnessed Christians all but kill each other these matters. My position is that it is all very jolly.

    My question is: Please define what is “truly” or proper Christian? I realise that certain schools of theory hold that if you do not speak in tongues, then you are not a “proper” Christian. Or if you do not belong to the Roman church or the World Wide Church of God for that matter you are not a proper Christian.
    Please don’t bombard me with 1000 verses from scripture. I am quite aware of the biblical texts. I would like a short concise personal explanation please. What is a Christian? What is the prescribed formula in your opinion?

    Is it really that complicated.

    God Bless You.
    Brother Kevin.

    By Brother Kevin on Jun 7, 2011

  164. I have NEVER said that Kevin.

    What I am consistently saying is that faithfulness to the Word of God is what GOD requires.

    Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
    Matthew 7: 24

    By Wayne on Jun 7, 2011

  165. Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. . . . Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD. Isaiah 52:8, 11

    He answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. Matthew 15:13-14

    By Wayne on Jun 7, 2011

  166. . “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death” (Proverbs 14:12).
    We should fear God and His Word alone. Based upon what God revealed to Ezekiel (Chapter 3: 17-20), there is a biblical principal that cannot be overlooked.
    When God reveals deception and darkness, a watchman must speak out and tell the truth regardless of the circumstances and the consequences.

    By Wayne on Jun 7, 2011

  167. In answer to your question Kevin genuine christianity is based solely on the following

    TO GOD ALONE BE THE GLORY

    It is absolutely necessary that we should submit to God, as our absolute sovereign, and the sovereign over our souls; as one who may have mercy on whom he will have mercy, and harden whom he will.

    CHRIST ALONE

    And there is salvation in no one else;
    For there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.
    Acts 4:12

    For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
    who gave Himself as a ransom for all,
    the testimony given at the proper time.
    1 Timothy 2:5-6

    SCRIPTURE ALONE

    The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul;
    the testimony of the Lord is sure,
    making wise the simple.
    Psalm 19:7

    You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of,
    knowing from whom you have learned them,
    and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings
    which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation
    through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable
    for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
    so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
    2 Timothy 3:14-17

    FAITH ALONE

    Therefore, having been justified by faith,
    we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand,
    and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    Romans 5:1-2

    For by grace you have been saved through faith,
    and that not of yourselves;
    it is the gift of God, not of works,
    lest anyone should boast.
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    GRACE ALONE
    He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness,
    but according to His mercy,
    by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
    whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
    so that being justified by His grace
    we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    Titus 3:7

    But the free gift is not like the offense.
    For if by the one man’s offense many died,
    much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man,
    Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
    Romans 5:15

    By Wayne on Jun 7, 2011

  168. Hello All,

    Thank you Wayne for your reply.
    Unfortunately you powered away with a set of scriptures again.
    I do not wish to sound insulting in any way at all but you sound like a bible verse robot!!

    My question was a relatively simple one but it would seem that you have not addressed it at all!!

    You have mentioned “Faithfulness to the Word of God” as the formula for being a “true” or “proper” Christian.
    I assume that by the “Word of God” you are referring to the Bible and its guidance. That is fair enough I suppose but it comes with a “catch” I think.

    I guess that would mean how “you” would see the interpretation of issues. However your opinions on what is the acceptable interpretation are only representations of your particular schools of theological interpretation. You by no means are the definitive word on anything, and neither am I for that matter.

    Yes issues of daily living are clearly laid out in a Jewish/Christian moral code and are reasonably clear; but a lot of other topics are open to many and varied viewpoints.

    My experience is that people come to the “Faith Journey” prior to their working knowledge of the scriptures. I am under the impression that entrance to this journey is by “faith” alone. That faith is in the Lord Jesus and his love for us and his great desire to save and keep us.

    I think the “faithfulness” to the word is part of the later outworking of our faith as we grow and understand more. But it sounds as though this “faithfulness” depends on a certain amount of skilful interpretation on the part of the pilgrim!

    In the Christian biblical interpretations there are many and varied approaches and many viewpoints on many subjects!
    Not everyone can get there head around all this.

    I have been blessed with such a brain and can rattle on about all and every nuance about most theological/biblical matters. But I still struggle and fight to keep the good fight. I still pass through the valley of the shadow of death and have done so quite literally.

    Some people are blessed with an academically capable brain some are not. That is why I would suggest that a “true” or “proper” Christian is one who is saved by God’s good grace and his grace alone.

    This would apply to Frank Houston, Brother Kevin or Jimney Cricket. God requires only our heart and “intent” to follow Him. God accepts us as we are: wounded, broken and in many cases quite malfunctioning. This does not preclude us from God’s great grace.
    I would have to say that I have probably failed every test the good Lord has put to me. If I have succeeded in any way I am certain it was only by mistake. But I know I am born again and trudge on in the journey.

    The comments by James above are very wise and valid I think. We are all “conflicted souls”.

    We are all on a faith journey. St. Paul said that some men’s faults go before them and some men’s faults follow after. My rendering of this text is this: some people’s weakness and failings are quite obvious and some people’s weakness and failings are not so obvious. We all fit into this boat.

    St.Paul at the end of his career stated that the things he should do he doesn’t and so on. He referred to himself as somewhat “Wretched”. Even he struggled in his faith journey.

    I made a comment earlier when I began writing
    to this blog; we should probably let old Frank RIP. He was weak and failed in areas as we all fail in our respective areas. God loves him and his victims. Of this I have no doubt at all.
    He contributed an enormous amount to Christian world I believe.

    I may have mentioned that I spoke with him by chance at a MacDonald’s for breakfast. This was 2 weeks prior to his death. He remembered me and was full of praise for our Lord Jesus. I am sure despite his monumental failures he was a man “shriven of his sin” and in God’s good care.
    As I’ve stated previously I am not and never was a member of the AoG or the other associated franchises. I say this as I have no axe to grind about the AoG, or Hillsong for that matter. Nor do I have a vested interest in promoting any of their ministers.

    I have attended some of their preachings and it has been a mixed bag really. Some speakers have been quite good,in fact pretty good, some loud and quite vexatious I fancy.

    The point I make is that we are “True” and “Proper” Christians by and through God’s good grace and love for us. There is nothing we can really contribute to this.

    Yes I know the Good Book tells us about the Wheat and the Tares: and yet this is not our job.
    This occupation was given expressly to the angels.
    Whenever the church has taken this job on we have been left with a bloody disaster. Church History reveals enough of this. Foxes Book of Martyrs is enough to turn anyone toward Buddhism.

    I have probably said enough; but I have learned that a lot of things are out our control. We can do no better than rest in God and pray in the manner we find best for us.

    God Bless You.
    Brother Kevin

    By Brother Kevin on Jun 7, 2011

  169. Brother Kevin, You’re certainly a deeper thinker than most people I meet - and its enjoyable reading your musings. Thank you for putting pen to paper here, in a manner of speaking. I’m wondering if you can shed some light on the hot air that Wayne has generated about Frank Houston teaching Latter Rain theory, as you knew Frank somewhat and you’ve been most helpful in explaining what L/R actually is. From your understanding of both do you know whether Wayne’s unsubstantiated assertion is true? Any insight from you would be helpful, as I’m only now learning more about the L/R ogre.
    .
    Wayne, your reality evidently requires people to agree with whatever you say, even if a reasonable person asks for external proof of your assertions. It’s like 1930s Germany and the propaganda used to change the nation’s mindset, mein heir. I have nothing to lose if it is actually proved that FH was a L/R proponent, and will accept that if there is reliable evidence.
    That you are unwilling to access primary documents as I suggested above on the last sentence of my 4th June comment, is quite disappointing as I’m fairly sure Philip Powell or Aeron Morgan would be able to point you to the right people (given all their contacts) to access the actual Minutes or Records of those conference discussions.
    As I’ll still be wading through the info you gave me links to on 29th May for a while, there’s not much to say other than I’ve learnt quite a bit about L/R and also how some of its critics haven’t distinguished particular branches of Reformed theology from it but have thrown it all into the same bowl and stirred it round and declared “This is Latter Rain teaching”.
    The 5th June “HIGHLY LIKELY” does not mean it is so.
    .
    James,
    Thank you for your comments too, these experiences are the stuff of life, aren’t they. I have fond memories of my time in True Vine, Mullumbimby.
    .
    Cheers

    By Paul, a small potato on Jun 7, 2011

  170. Brother Kevin,

    Always good to see some interesting topics brought up. Your reference to 1 Tim 2:12 on the 7th June caught my eye.

    I quote an article from Denny Burk:

    “One cannot overestimate the importance of 1 Timothy 2:12 in the intra-evangelical debate over gender roles and women in ministry. There is a reason why countless articles and even an entire book have been written on the interpretation of this single verse.

    In many ways, this verse is the most disputed text in the debate. It is clear that Paul is prohibiting something, but just what he prohibits has been fiercely contested.
    Complementarians argue that Paul prohibits women from doing two things;—teaching Christian doctrine to and exercising authority over the gathered church.

    Egalitarians argue that Paul prohibits women from doing one thing—a certain kind of teaching. They argue that there is no gender-based authority structure indicated in this text but that Paul means to prohibit women from “teaching with authority,” from “teaching in a domineering way” or from “teaching false doctrine.” In their view, Paul doesn’t prohibit all teaching by women over men, but only a certain kind of teaching. Recently, some egalitarians have argued that Paul means to prohibit women from “teaching and assuming authority” over a man. Philip Payne makes this argument in a 2008 article for New Testament Studies and in his 2009 book Man and Woman, One in Christ (Zondervan).

    Sadly, the NIV 2011 reflects the latter approach in its rendering, “assume authority.” Here is how the verse appears in the four NIV versions since 1984.

    Text of 1 Timothy 2:12 Notes
    NIV 1984 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
    TNIV NT 2002 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority overb a man;c she must be quiet. b Or to exercise authority over; or to dominate

    c Or her husband

    TNIV 2005 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;1,2 she must be quiet. 1 Or teach a man in a domineering way; or teach or to exercise (or have) authority over a man

    2 Or over her husband

    NIV 2011 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;b she must be quiet. b Or over her husband

    As you can see, the crucial change occurred in the TNIV 2005, which is the basis for the NIV 2011. What difference does this change make? “Assume authority” seems to imply the idea of acting independently in order to take up an undelegated authority. In other words, “assume authority” has the ring of a sinful power-grab. On this view, Paul is not prohibiting women from exercising authority per se, but only from assuming a stance of independent (and thus illegitimate) leadership in the church. So women may in fact teach men and exercise authority over them so long as such authority is properly delegated to them by the church.

    It appears, therefore, that the NIV 2011 comes down on the side of egalitarianism in its rendering of 1 Timothy 2:12. The NIV translators, however, don’t see it this way. They argue that “assume authority” tilts neither in the direction of complementarianism nor of egalitarianism. In their Translators’ Notes, they write:

    “‘Assume authority’ is a particularly nice English rendering because it leaves the question open, as it must be unless we discover new, more conclusive evidence. The exercise of authority that Paul was forbidding was one that women inappropriately assumed, but whether that referred to all forms of authority over men in church or only certain forms in certain contexts is up to the individual interpreter to decide” (p. 7).

    But is it really true that this translation “leaves the question open”? I don’t think so. From the translators’s own words, we see that “assume authority” denotes an “inappropriate” taking up of authority. This gives a negative connotation to the word, and Andreas Kӧstenberger has shown that a negative connotation is not possible in this particular grammatical construction (Kӧstenberger’s conclusion has been widely received among feminist and complementarian scholars alike). So “assume authority” does not leave the question open but moves the discussion decidedly into the direction of egalitarianism.(the doctrine of the equality of mankind and the desirability of political and economic and social equality)

    For the record, I am not the only one who views “assume authority” as an egalitarian rendering. Interpreters from both sides of the debate view it the very same way that I have it here. This translation is in fact the preferred translation of Philip Payne, a New Testament scholar who has devoted the better part of his scholarly career to defending an egalitarian reading of scripture. Payne writes:

    “Since lexical and contextual evidence favors the meaning BDAG gives for authentein, ‘to assume a stance of independent authority’, this article translates authentein ‘to assume authority’” (pp. 235-36).
    “Teaching combined with assuming authority is by definition not authorized” (p. 247).
    “What 1 Tim 2.12 prohibits, it must regard as negative: a woman teaching combined with assuming authority over a man” (p. 252).
    “This oude construction makes best sense as a single prohibition of women teaching with self-assumed authority over a man” (p. 253).

    Complementarian Wayne Grudem likewise agrees that this is an egalitarian interpretation. In his 2006 book Evangelical Feminism: A New Path to Liberalism?, he writes:

    “In 1 Timothy 2:12 the TNIV adopts a highly suspect and novel translation that gives the egalitarian side everything they have wanted for years in a Bible translation. It reads, ‘I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man’… If churches adopt this translation, the debate over women’s roles in the church will be over, because women pastors and elders can just say, ‘I’m not assuming authority on my own initiative; it was given to me by the other pastors and elders.’ Therefore any woman could be a pastor or elder so long as she does not take it upon herself to ‘assume authority’… So it is no surprise that egalitarian churches are eager to adopt the TNIV” (p. 260).

    Even though the TNIV 2005 employed the translation “assume authority,” it at least preserved alternatives in the note, “teach a man in a domineering way; or teach or to exercise (or have) authority over a man.” This note has disappeared in NIV 2011, so a complementarian interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:12 will no longer be available to readers of the NIV. All the reader has is an egalitarian rendering in the text. If the translators intended to “leave the question open,” why is this note removed in NIV 2011?

    What’s the upshot of this translation for the average reader of the NIV? Those readers will see a significant change in their translation the next time they purchase an NIV. In their new Bible, “have authority” will give way to “assume authority” with absolutely no explanation in the notes. Those readers may very well conclude that women may exercise authority over men (i.e., serve as pastors) so long as they do not “assume” that authority independently.

    My suggestion would be that NIV translators drop “assume authority” and use instead “exercise authority.” This is the translation favored by the NASB, ESV, NET, Mounce’s commentary, Knight’s commentary, and Schreiner and Kostenberger’s essays in Women in the Church.

    One can’t judge a translation based on a single verse. Nevertheless, the mistranslation of this text is noteworthy. I hope it is changed in future editions, and I hope it is not indicative of how other gender passages are handled in the NIV 2011.

    By lance on Jun 8, 2011

  171. Hello All.

    Dear friends I do believe it’s time to open a new bottle of Merlot and let it breath a bit!
    Aah! That’s better. We can all settle down a bit.
    I will prop my feet up by the fire place and think a wee moment.

    Some questions have been put me and I shall attempt to answer these. However I will also want to be some what discreet as a certain amount of anonymity is justified.

    Paul, thank you for your kind remarks.

    As to my knowledge of the late Frank Houston: Frank Houston lived in Lower Hutt a suburb outside of Wellington in NZ.
    I had the occasion to visit there once as a relative of mine boarded with his family.

    As far as can assess they were hospitable folk and lived in an “average” level of lifestyle. Their home and so forth reflected a very “Normal” way of living as would be experienced by the majority of Kiwis. No there were no Benny Hinn style Helipads or fleet of Hummers. His home and accoutrements were not unlike where I lived in the South Island of NZ.

    We grew up in the Province of South Canterbury; this is about 160km from the dreadful earthquakes which rocked Christchurch, Lyttleton and the surrounding areas. Our home was on the edge of the country on a very long rural road. At the end of this road was a country supply store. This store was owned by Frank’s sister in law and family. I knew his nephews and nieces and would buy lollies and such at this store.
    Frank was a normal human being and would often visit his family over the Christmas Holidays. Everyone does this!!

    Whenever I met him he was cordial, polite and struck me as a quite man. He had a ready smile and could hold a joke. All things aside he appeared a very normal happy and pleasant man. You were pleased to be in his company!

    As his visits brought him to the South Island the local Pentecostal assemblies would certainly invite him for guest appearances; and why not. The Anglican’s do the same thing.

    He was known as “Fireball Frank” and this was indeed a pretty good description. I recall the local Pentecostal assemblies were keen and excited to receive a visit from Frank Houston. I would visit and attend some of these meetings.

    As I recall (I was about 15-16 y.o.) there was no encouragement in “vile” satanic Latter Rain Pornography. He preached salvation with utter commitment. He encouraged folk in their pilgrimage Prayed for the sick; and as I recalled many folk were utterly and genuinely ministered to, delivered from their discomforts and obviously set free! These are my personal observations not second hand reports.

    People would “Go Down” under the power.
    Now I don’t claim to understand the exact science behind all this as I’ve never gone down under the power as such. I have been prayed for by Frank and accepted this as an expression of ministry. The “Laying on of Hands”, The Anglican Church practises this rite as well. No I do not believe that I was imbued with Hob Goblin, Foul fiend or other matters of dismay. I quote from the old Hymn; “He who would true Valour See”.

    I am aware that as a non Pentecostal I had received ministry and strength to continue up the narrow path!

    So that is how I came to meet the late Frank Houston. Such meetings were sporadic over the years; but he all ways remembered me and was cordial toward me. He greeted me with a smile and would ask after my Mother as he knew her.

    Some years later a friend who had graduated from the then CLC College invited me to their graduation ceremony.

    Frank remembered me and came up to greet me. He was as I found him: a warm smiling and personable human being. Good with a conversation and more like your old uncle. I had heard some whisperings about his “short comings” but I confess that I found this somewhat hard to take as gospel or even get my head around.
    My recollections of Frank did not provide a template for this dark news.
    It goes with the territory really; if God uses a person then there is generally some flack to be borne.

    Let us be quite clear about this: God used a “broken vessel” to serve in a very mighty and powerful manner.
    As I have stated previously: I am not a Pentecostal at all and am not part of any of the variations of this faith journey. But I will state quite categorically that failed as Frank was he was used in a mighty way and was instrumental in bringing many to the faith journey. As I recall his message was the “Blood of Christ” and the saving power of our Lord Jesus.

    His “emphasis” was that of “Deliverance”.
    This seems some what sad to me that this message of deliverance seemed to have escaped him. I do not say this as a sarcastic comment at all. Many ministries that have been used in “Healing” have in turn battled chronic illness.

    I digress here: I was attending an Anglican Healing Eucharist recently. I went up to the “Rail” to receive prayer and anointing of oil. The priest who prayed for me joined their own prayer of continual suffering to my recent debilitating health concerns. I remember weeping as this was an experience of identification with the other;
    and thus a joining and identification of our Lord’s suffering. I was not “healed” as such; but I was deeply blessed and received a deeper appreciation of Christ’s Body. “When one suffers, we all suffer”.

    I do not profess to understand it all but there may be some thing in it all I suspect. I am sure there those out there more able to guide us in these matters.

    The rest of the Frank Houston story is widely known. It is my opinion that his faults and failings aside he was definitely a major contributor to the Kingdom of God in Australasia.

    He will be remembered with mixed feelings long after his dissenters have been dead, buried and forgotten!

    As to Frank vomiting out Latter Rain vileness; well this would depend on how you saw the Latter Rain issue in the first place.

    I have given a “Nutshell” explanation on this all ready. My explanation is correct and the current contemporary goings on are a natural progression of this theological theory.

    Consider if you will the Anglican Community. We range from bells, incense and old traditional Anglo/Catholic practise to anti women Evangelicalism. We have a mix of “Progressive Liberal” theology through to mind numbing “Literalism”.

    We all plod along I guess. I see no reason to “Come out of Her” at all. If I did then I guess I’d spend the rest of my life “Coming Out” of some thing else.

    I mention this as I see the Pentecostal Journey in much the same way. There are many and varied expressions of this rather “Loose Fit” denomination. Their common thread is Christ of course and the manifestation of the gifts; namely tongues, prophecy, healings and so on. As they see it; a restoration of the wonders lost to the church and a much fuller expression of the New Testament Living!

    Admittedly these assemblies differ as do Anglican communities. Some are absolutely “Barking Mad”, some are blessed with profound scholarship. Take the Apostolic Church for instance; they came out the Welsh Revivals and are like Pentecostal Baptist ministers. They wear the “Cloth” and the ones I met and knew and worked with were quite formidable theological scholars, many who could read and converse on the Greek texts.

    I have referred to Rev. Offilers work. A missionary to India by the name of Graham Truscott wrote a work on the “Restoration of the Tabernacle of David”. This work was published in India; and at present I cannot find it in my cluttered library.
    It is good to begin one’s research from the point of a prima genitor. That is go back as far as is able to understand the beginnings of things. The Latter Rain Theories and Restoration of David’s Tabernacle are like this; they both had ideas that were some what intertwined; they begin, grow and develop over the years.
    I am some-what surprised that no other contributor to this site has brought this issue up. The foundation is still one of “Restoration” and “Revival” and the restoring of the wonders to the church.

    Yes I am aware of some rather odd theologies emerging out of this. I will outline one for you. A rather loose dissertation on the “manifest sons of God”, this was wound up with some idea that we would be “Christ’s” on other Planets bringing salvation to the people of that planet. This idea is quite well presented in the series “Star Gate SG1” and the battles with the “Ori”. So the concept is out there. Worth thinking about?

    I would have mentioned previously that I am a musician and continue to play and teach. My wife and I are regularly asked to provide music for camps’ retreats, Taize and secular performance.
    A few years ago we were asked to provide the music for a Pentecostal weekend camp.
    This would be the equivalent of an Anglican retreat or a Cursillo retreat I suppose. The minister is a friend of ours and was at this particular time a “Latter Rain” exponent. We enjoyed playing music and entering into a time of Worship. I enjoy this. Some of their practises were definitely an “acquired taste”. During the “Altar Call” prayers they would blow on the supplicant. The person would fall down and lie prostrate for some time. Not unlike a Roman Catholic prostration in a state of emptying.

    I personally don’t get too phased about all this. I suggested previously that this may be better explained in terms of “Personalty Types” or disposition than anything to do with belief. A field of discipline called the Enneagramm has been practised in many of the “Holy Orders” and monkish communities.
    It is an ancient understanding of personalities and the strengths and weaknesses associated with this. I was fortunate to spend some years studying this discipline. I have written a course and occasionally take day “Work shops” in it. I mention this as I believe a great deal of the issues we see have their basis in personality as well as theological theory.

    Friend’s have alerted me to various YouTube presentations of the “Drunken, Off your Face” Jesus manifestations.
    These as I recall were not strictly part of what I recall in the early days.
    They are however a natural progression of things I believe.

    Are they Satanic??

    Well here is another journey of discovery I think.
    Firstly one needs to understand that the concept of Demons and the Devil has been a developing science in both the Christian faith and also the Biblical Text for that matter. I do not want to develop this idea here at the moment though; but I will recommend a little book: Demons: Visions of Evil in Art by Laura ward and Will Steeds Carlton Publishing. Also look up some of the Thinkers Guide series by MediaCom Publishers. They illustrate better than I could here on these “curly” matters. The Interpreters Dictionary to the Bible, Abingdon Publishers.

    None of these issues are that simple I fancy. This is just my view of course!

    Some have suggested the “Latter Rain” theories are the modern “Montanism”.
    I feel they may be quite right in this.

    However as I have stated previously the Church has survived. Research shows that about every 15 years or so some new deal pokes its head up and there is a flurry of concern. I agree with Wayne that we need to study the scriptures and become “Informed”.

    However whether or not Frank Houston or his son are the new antichrists would be a matter for those more learned than I to decide.

    I would suggest the prophet Micah; to seek mercy and justice and walk humbly before our God.

    I wish you all God’s Peace.
    Brother Kevin.

    By Kevin on Jun 8, 2011

  172. Every way of a man [is] right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts. Proverbs 21:2

    “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death” (Proverbs 14:12). We should fear God and His Word alone. Based upon what God revealed to Ezekiel (Chapter 3: 17-20), there is a biblical principal that cannot be overlooked.

    When God reveals deception and darkness, a watchman must speak out and tell the truth regardless of the circumstances and the consequences.

    We are living in the time of strong delusion that Paul wrote about (2 Thessalonians 2:11). If you are a Bible-believing pastor, shouldn’t you be helping to lead the way in warning about deception, not promoting the apostate agenda in any fashion?
    Ecumenism within the church has been allowed to develop for years.
    When a pastor does not warn his flock about ecumenical apostasy, it sends the message that exposing apostasy is just not that important. When a church, organization, or denomination starts down the Road to Rome, there is very little chance of turning back – the pull is just too great.

    Nowhere in the Bible is it acceptable to join hands with those who promote another Jesus and another gospel like that of the Roman Catholic Church.

    This is why John warned: come out of her (the harlot) and be set free (Revelation 18:4).

    By Wayne on Jun 8, 2011

  173. And may I say this to any believer who now realizes his or her own pastor is compromising the Word of God and embracing apostate teachings: If you have done what you can to warn and exhort your pastor(s) to turn back to the truth, and if your warnings and exhortations are rejected, perhaps it is time to get out of that church. Paul addressed this when he said: “A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject” Titus 3:10.
    Deception has crept in, unnoticed to many, and even at times been purposely covered up. Jude warned this was happening in his day (Jude 4). The same is true in the perilous days in which we live (2 Timothy 3: 1-5).

    If you are a pastor who has succumbed to the present-day spiritual apostasy, get back to the Word of God, and preach it, and teach it! If your congregation shrinks, so what! Better to have a few who are solid and can go out and be fruitful for the Lord than have a mega church full of participants of a social gospel that is being prepared for the coming One World Religion.
    While the large-scale move toward apostasy has been taking place for some time, and postmodern/emerging, Purpose-Driven ideas are widely accepted, there still may be time if pastors will repent and return to the purity of the Gospel and God’s Word.

    By Wayne on Jun 8, 2011

  174. Kevin you seem to have great difficulty in accepting that the bible believing christian is committed to Bible teaching.

    To dare to impose mere human thinking on such matters of eternal importance is to be like the leaders of this Latter Rain nonsense promoting the teachings of man (popery) at the expense of the clear teaching of the Creator of all humanity as provided for us in the Bible.

    To dare to think that the mere philosphies of any man is able to compete with the clear teachings of scripture is an absolute outrage to God and exactly the same offence that Adam and Eve committed in the Garden of Eden.

    Faithfulness to HIS Word in the form of absolute abedience is what God has ALWAYS required.

    Now that Rick Warren and Tony Blair (who converted to Catholicism) have announced they will be working together to set up a One World Religion as they did on March 6, 2011 in southern California, how will Christian pastors respond to this? Or will they at all? History shows, most probably won’t.
    What is known as fact is this: the emerging/postmodern, Purpose Driven ecumenical, contemplative mindset in the Evangelical or Protestant Christian church has not gone away. And it is not popular to speak against this growing apostasy. It is a lot easier to go down stream than upstream. The Bible foretells we are in the Last Days. What do you as Christian pastors want to be: dead salmon washed out to sea or true fishers of men?
    Check out the Bible! There will be a One World Religion. Do you want to be part of the problem, or do you want to be standing up for truth? The latter is not easy and carries with it a high price.
    A Wake Up Call to Pastors
    Teaching and preaching the Word of God is a high calling. You should always be true to your calling and remain true to the Word. And yet, many know that something is seriously wrong, but they say nothing.
    Saying nothing can be as detrimental as outrightly supporting the lie. It is time to wake up! We are in the last days, and many sheep are being deceived, and pastors have a huge role in that deception taking place. When the sheep have the wool pulled over their eyes, they cannot see. This is not acceptable. What about the wolves who are among the flock? Good shepherds should never allow that to happen.
    While there still remain faithful Christian pastors who look to Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd and still believe in the inerrant Word of God, the fact that so many pastors have moved away from the basics of biblical Christianity toward a man-made apostate church will result in much of the flock drifting with them.
    And may I say this to any believer who now realizes his or her own pastor is compromising the Word of God and embracing apostate teachings: If you have done what you can to warn and exhort your pastor(s) to turn back to the truth, and if your warnings and exhortations are rejected, perhaps it is time to get out of that church. Paul addressed this when he said: “A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject” Titus 3:10.
    Deception has crept in, unnoticed to many, and even at times been purposely covered up. Jude warned this was happening in his day (Jude 4).
    The same is true in the perilous days in which we live (2 Timothy 3: 1-5).

    By Wayne on Jun 8, 2011

  175. Ignatius Loyola was the founder of the Order of the Jesuits in the Catholic Church. The Jesuit goal is to turn the inerrant Word of God into the word of man while at the same time promoting the word of the pope as the word of God. In addition, the Jesuit ambition is to bring the “lost brethren” back to the “Mother” church (read Another Jesus). This is no minor thing. I have been to the city of Rome. I have spoken with Bible honouring christians who have seen the multitudes worship and adore a man (the Pope) who carries a wafer and a vial of juice that is supposed to be Jesus. Martyrs in earlier centuries were murdered for rejecting the papacy and the Eucharist. Today, I am horrified to watch once Bible-believing pastors turn their hearts and their congregations toward Rome, often through a Jesuit influence. Instances of this are occurring more and more every day and are a direct result of this demonic nonsense referred to as Latter Rain.

    By Wayne on Jun 8, 2011

  176. CORRECTION - I have spoken with bible believing/honouring christians who have been to Rome and witnessed these horrific things. I have NOT personally been to Rome.

    By Wayne on Jun 8, 2011

  177. Kevin,
    Thankyou for writing those memories of Frank Houston for us - it certainly gives me a more human face than my few memories of him as a platform-performer. It is helpful, given the other facts we know which were part of him.
    I knew some of his extended family and only once did they ever talk about Frank, and that was only briefly.
    .
    This particular post seems to be exhausted as to fact regarding his life at present, and perhaps it may soon exhaust the fiction too. I certainly hope so.
    .
    The Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jun 9, 2011

  178. Hello All,

    Wayne thank you for reply.

    It seems to me that you 5 part “tirade” has absolutely nothing to do with my last posting.
    I was asked a simple question: What did I know about Frank Houston personally and what if any were his practise in the “Latter Rain” theories!!

    Fairly straightforward I would have thought.

    Yes I knew Frank Houston.
    Yes a close relative boarded with them.
    Yes I knew his nephews and nieces.
    Yes he knew my dear old Mum.
    Yes I found him a warm, humorous man; not unlike an old favourite uncle.
    Yes I had heard whispers regarding his “darkness” some years prior to this becoming a Tabloid revelation.
    Yes his messages as I heard them were “Primarily” about “Deliverance” the setting of people free through the power of the “Risen Lord”.
    Yes he was greatly “anticipated” with “great excitement” as a favourite guest speaker.

    No I do not recall Frank as being specifically a Bible Expositor as such.
    No I do not recall him discussing the “deeper teaching” issues. His forte was as I witnessed about deliverance and the healing of the sin sick soul.
    No he did not favour Romanism; and he said this certainly in my hearing.
    No he did not like the United Nations; this he spoke of in my hearing also.
    No he did not support the idea of a World Council of Churches; this I heard from his preaching.

    If Frank Houston had not “fallen” he would be considered a “Giant” of the Christian Faith. This I believe quite sincerely.

    The CLC and now Hillsong Movement started some 20 years ago I think. I recall being a guest and performed some songs. This was when there were only about 100 in the congregation. They hired a school hall.

    Brian Houston was best man at the wedding of one of my relatives some years ago; however I do not claim to have had anything to do with Brian at all.
    My knowledge of Frank was as friend but not an associate in his inner circle.

    But Wayne we are still waiting for a “Clear Concise” explanation of the “Latter Rain” theories!!
    Just explain in 2 or 3 paragraphs in your own words!

    As I said previously you present your self as a “Bible Quoting Robot”.

    Your writings show no compassion or understanding.
    Your Bible has taken on a “Deification” it would seem.
    God is presented as a “Proper Intolerant Barstard” just aching to slam us off to the Greek Underworld.

    As a child I was taught that John 3: 16 was indeed the Gospel in a Nut Shell. I think this is correct. The elements of this one verse show us that: 1. God loves us.
    2. He gave His Son to save and help us. 3. We need only believe on Him (Jesus the Christ). 4. We will not perish.
    5. Receive life eternal with the good Lord.

    This is what it is all about.

    Pilgrims on faith journeys have a variety of opinions on a myriad of issues. Lance referred to a verse in 1 Tim 2:12.
    He was commenting on the “Vast” differences of opinion.
    This example shows us that a great deal of Biblical Interpretation is hotly disputed.
    There is certainly no “Simple” reading and “Plain” interpretation on a great deal of issues.
    This is why we have numerous denominations.

    As to Rick Warren and Tony Blair’s new one world church. I say “Fantastic and Best Wishes”.
    Hey!! We have never been able in 2000 years get unity on anything. I’ve seen wonderful little rural churches “Self Implode” with dissention.

    There was talk some years back of a “Homosexual” church to start in the Cental Coast. Well the jolly old HOO HAAH about that. A friend said we needed to “pray against” them. I said to my friend, “Look are you gay?” he said no of course not. I replied, “Well then you will not be attending; so stop worrying about it”.

    I would point out though that a great deal of your comments and quotations are good. As I stated previously though; none of your information is new to me at all.

    I do not support Romanism in any way. I do have a lot of family that are Roman Catholic. This should not be surprising as our family is fist generation Irish and growing up in NZ, Australia and Ireland.

    I have a sister who is in the Roman Church and she is a formidable scholar. She will quote the old classic works in the Greek if you fancy. Her towering intellect leaves me a bit breathless. I love her and in no way would I consider severing family and friendships over religious differences of opinion. This would be “against” the message of “love, forgiveness and acceptance” as found in Christ’s “Plain” teaching.

    Please do not start quoting “Leaving mother and father and so on for my sake!” I know the verses.
    The contexts have quite different relevance.

    The world will better know our Lord by our “Love one to another”. This I believe to be the entire key to the faith journey.

    The secular world out there has only witnessed a warring church. Differing and arguing about everything.
    Cutting one another off over the most stupid bloody nonsense. Setting such a devastating wittness. As I stated previously: the church has done a great job buggering itself up without the help any extraterestrial assistance.

    Let me offer another little “Gem”.
    The “plain meaning” of the text is not all together plain.

    You will recall the love story between Ruth and Boaz.
    The little reference to “Cover Me’. This statement has been woven into a little hymn; I’m sure you know it.

    The terminology here is a Hebrew euphemism for just what the scene is all about. A polite way of describing a romantic interlude between a man and a woman in love.

    Nothing here is considered lewd it is a love scene quite normal between two adults in a genuine communion.
    You see the “back ground” paints a slightly different picture.

    As I stated previously God does not damn us because we do not have the intellectual abilities to read and understand Calvin’s Institutes.
    I confess I struggle a bit with Thomas Aquinas.

    The God you paint is intolerable, psychopathic and a bit of a monster. I see God as Father, forgiving and understanding wanting only our “intent” to journey in him.
    A man can be a struggling alcoholic, a homosexual, a murderer and still be in God’s good grace. A man can be a Mongol, have brain injury, this would preclude them from even knowing what “Latter Rain Filth” or “Romanist Dogma” was about!, and suffer from many other mental difficulties. All any of them need to do is believe in Christ. In fact I’ve seen the smile on the face of the “Simple Minded” just knowing that “Jesus Loves Them”. He will attend them in their faith.

    The concept of a “correct” bible verse interpretation are not a prelude to our being accepted by Christ!!
    In fact a “Canonised” leather bound KJV with guilt edges was not around in the 1st C church. I do hope you’re not one of those who believe that Jesus quoted from his KJV Bible.

    But our “Faith” and our desire to follow Him certainly is. This is a journey of a life time, we struggle, fail and the good Lord is there to help and guide us whatever our situation. The Prodigal Son and the Good Samaritan are stories told by Christ himself to illustrate this point.

    There is nothing we can do to make our selves acceptable for salvation.

    Any way it would still nice to hear “in your own words” your opinion of what the “Latter Rain” theory is about.

    No I do not wish to view a myriad of web sites; just an explanation would be good. And no I am not an adherent to the Latter Rain theories or Romanism. Yes I have numerous friends in both camps. They are just that; friends and I value good friends on the basis of mutual love and trust. My friendships are not on the basis of nebulous biblical interpretations. In fact I will soon be playing some music for an up and coming Roman Catholic event. I’m looking forward to it.

    God Bless All,
    Brother Kevin.

    By Brother Kevin on Jun 9, 2011

  179. Dear small Potato,

    thanks for your comment.

    I cant quite pin who you are or may have been at TVCC; there were many ‘Pauls’ there.

    I was surprised when I stumbled upon this site the other evening (as I stated I was looking for background on Nahlia) and saw comments by former TVCC members. What interesting characters many of them were. I hear there was a reunion last year held in northern NSW that former members attended, perhaps you were there, I wasnt.

    I have long toyed with the idea of writing a history of the movement but at present am not in the position to do that. It may be in a year or so in the future. I have seen one academic paper written by a former member for a theology degree at Flinders, but apart from that, nothing really.

    The CLC influence on the community is one that I had backgrounded in my mind although its origins are tied with Hansen’s return to his native Mullumbimby after his conversion (from Buddhism so they say) in the CLC church in Sydney. One at the time could be forgiven for believing that the community evolved simply from a move of the spirit in the beautiful forested valleys of the Byron shire; that God was in the hills and his face was to be seen in nature and the beatific smiles of the youthful community members, such was the atmosphere in those days.

    Hansen basically brought the Houston mythology with him as a more or less “apostolic” basis of the community. I use the apostolic word figuratively. It is then interesting to note that the earliest days of the community were coloured by dissent with the local AoG in Byron Bay. This may have been due to Hansen’s deeply ingrained independence or perhaps cultural imperialism from the local AoG, who like Houston, couldnt understand how ‘hippies’ could grow as Christians. The idea I guess was that Christians should dress in a certain way, etc. If so, once again the emphasis was on appearance not substance.

    The early divisions of the community; the splits with foundational members later labelled ‘false prophets” “free gracers devoid of discipleship” etc., who also were affected by the move of the spirit in the area among the altenative community at the time, would have to be seen as fundamental to the development of a certain spiritual elitism in the community, which had its source in Hansen (and his antipathy toward his rivals/enemies), and was not unlike the ’spiritual pride’ often attributed to local hippies and new agers, and which many of us also definitely had as new Christians believing we had entered something great; and indeed it was.

    Early converts definitely came out of the unknown world of the counter culture for which Mullumbimby in the late 1970s was such a magnet. Not all later members did come over from that milieu, and I found the cultural imperialism of CLC frustrating, when the local counter culture (our target group for evangelistic outreach) looked upon us as ’straights’ and the so called straight community saw us as hippies. One couldnt win. I definitely think looking back that an incarnational community, based on the land exhibiting a working self sufficiency, rarely achieved by alternative life-stye( hippy) groups, overall, would have been a better witness in the long run.

    The sending of “pastors” to TVCC from CLC Sydney after Hansens’ dismissal by Houston only heightened my aversion to this type of Christianity. We would all now be wearing Sydney CLC fashions and become a ‘regular’ church imbibing the nascent prosperity doctrine and groovy emphasis of CLC (now epitomized in the Hillsong movement). At the time I just longed for the high worship the community had also been founded upon; the divine cadence of which I have not really encountered since. This was the parting of the ways, the white dressed sisters with flowers in their hair and the long haired Hansen acolytes were to be no more, and time moved on as it was meant to.

    The greatest pity to me at the time was the absolute negligence Houston showed toward the sheep of that community, and the way it affected many of them who felt totally deceived, rootless and bitter. As you said such life lessons…Ill leave it there…trusting we all, no matter, are still in His hand. Good to see your insightful words here on many issues Paul,

    regards,

    James the Lesser.

    By James on Jun 9, 2011

  180. In 1949 the General Council of the Assemblies of God held in Seattle overwhelmingly approved a resolution that was prepared by a committee that dealt with the Latter Rain Movement. The resolution adopted disapproved of the following practices of the Latter Rain, and the action was made necessary as a result of the movement invading the Assembly of God churches:
    1. The overemphasis relative to imparting, identifying, bestowing, or confirming of gifts by the laying on of hands and prophecy.
    2. The erroneous teaching that the church is built on the foundation of present-day
    apostles and prophets.
    3. The extreme teaching as advocated by the “New Order,” regarding the confession of sin to man and deliverance as practised, which claims prerogatives to human agency which belongs only to Christ.
    4. The erroneous teaching concerning the impartation of the gift of languages as
    special equipment for missionary service.
    5. The extreme and unscriptural practice of imparting or imposing personal leadings by the means of the gifts of utterance.
    6. Such other wresting and distortions of scripture interpretations, which are in opposition to teachings and practices generally accepted among us. -
    See Endnotes (1)
    The Latter Rain featured individuals with “oil in the hands”; congregational singing of “the song of the Lord”, singing in the Spirit; the emphasis on “God is doing a new thing”; the manifested sons of God teaching; the placing of experience over exposition; the branding of those who denounced the movement; getting away from what the church had been.
    In a letter from the Executive Presbytery of the Assemblies of God (April 20, 1949), these observations were given. They are still valid today.

    “The true test of any movement is whether or not it will stand up under the light of the Word of God. We cannot depend alone upon the testimony of spiritual blessing, which many have claimed to have received under the `new order.’
    “When the `Jesus Only’ issue swept the country in the years 1914-1917, there was a constant testimony that this was a revelation from God accompanied by great spiritual blessing. The movement was judged,
    however, not on the testimony of spiritual blessings, but on its adherence to the scriptures. When it was found that its claims did not conform to sound doctrine, its message was rejected. Dire calamities were predicted upon all who failed to `walk in the light’ of that `revelation’ but all predictions failed of fulfilment. We have heard similar predictions for failure to accept the `new order’ teaching, which we regret exceedingly.”

    “How shall we labour with any effect to build up the Church if we have no thorough knowledge of her history or fail to apprehend it from the proper point of observation? History is, and must ever continue to be, next to God’s Word, the richest foundation of wisdom and sweet guide to all successful practical activity.”

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

    Proverbs 3

    1My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

    2For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

    3Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:

    4So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

    5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

    6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

    7Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

    8It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

    9Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

    10So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

    11My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

    12For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

    13Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

    By Wayne on Jun 9, 2011

  181. James,
    These days I am indeed a small potato in the Good Farmer’s potato patch - in the early 80s I was [deleted by request of commenter], and at that time went through one of the greatest breakings of my life when my marriage broke down. I was recommended to move north to the community for ‘time out’ and to receive healing from the LORD - [personal information deleted by request]. I did not come from a CLC church.
    My friends saw in me many similarities to the heart of the community [cutting through all the cultural externals and having a disciple-making focus]. My first preaching was at age 16, and I preached on discipleship. I’ve always found it easier than most to cross cultural and subcultural gaps. Humans have so much more in common than not - a person is a person. Stereotyping people by ethnic, cultural, age, occupational backgrounds, etc, actually limits our understanding of them - for no-one fits those boxes in reality, there are always big bits hanging out all over the place that don’t fit the constructs of those boxes. And this is why I’ve been interested to find out more about the-not-so-great Frank Houston. (Kevin’s contribution has been so helpful in this, both articulate and poetic.)
    .
    I hope you’re not JH as I found him to be a real control-freak as a pastor, and totally disinterested in the person he counselled with. When I advised Les and Jim that I’d be returning to Sydney in 2 months I was immediately moved to Golden Beach, the reputed area for the worst cases and the centre of ‘law’. “You’ve got to have law before you can have grace - Moses came before Christ came” was H…’s counsel. Pity he hadn’t learned what the New Covenant is really about when he got his 1970s AoG ordination papers.
    .
    However having been a Christian 20 years already I didn’t encounter anything dramatically different to what happens in many other churches. In fact it was really enjoyable living next to the beach, getting to know such interesting people, and going for a walk in the mornings finding a dozen or so quail scurrying along in front of me often.
    .
    I returned to collect my library about 2 years later and encountered KingHarding had been enthroned, one of whom had only been saved less than 3 years earlier - one of them was very angry that I was taking so many books away, and that I had read so much on ministry and the Bible. They both seemed oblivious to the calling on every follower of Christ to study and become equipped for ministry.
    .
    James, I’ve often said that someone should write an account of that remarkable work of God that was the 7years of the True Vine Christian Community. I encourage you brother, to start jotting down your thoughts.
    Nice to reminisce.
    .
    May the LORD bless and challenge each reader. I must away as hot porridge is served and I must eat breakfast now.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jun 10, 2011

  182. Dear PS, I am not JH or JM for that matter. I always appreciated your books.

    JHs real control issues were especially manifested in his marriage and relationship counseling and caused much hurt in that area- another of the more cultic aspects of the community.

    To frame TVCC culturally, socially, and in terms of religious history would be the first step in producing the history of the movement. It was unique but not entirely. Its geographic-cultural location (milieu) was. This forum here has refreshed my desire. I forget the name of the group in the Blue Mountains at the time led by Howard …? and their monthly journal named ??? Ill have to dig them out from my archive in the shed. Although culturally distant form TVCC their Discipleship and Shepherding literature also had a big effect on the community. I went to one of their conferences once and received a lot of flak for the length of my hair replete with biblical injunctions…talk about legalism.

    There is still a bit of literature floating around produced by TVCC at the time, some of which I have in my possession. the AoG ‘Evangel’ also has snippets about the community here and there. Twood be a good project. Enjoy the porridge, its a nice day and all the best, keep writing , keep reading, keep growing.

    By James on Jun 10, 2011

  183. Psalm 138:2 for You have exalted Your Word above all Your name

    How dare we do any less.

    By Wayne on Jun 10, 2011

  184. James,
    Yes friend, it would indeed be a good long-term project to put quill and ink to work, as the LORD did a great work in people’s lives during those years and one day those who read a thorough account of it will stand in awe at the handiwork of the LORD then. I don’t think I’ve ever come across a bunch of Christians who knew the Scriptures so well, and many had memorised very large portions of them.
    .
    I found it interesting that the KJV ‘authorised’ version seemed to be used almost exclusively - somehow 1611 English coming from an ‘alternate’ seemed out of kilter initially. Theologically it was fundamentalist, and maybe so too ecclesiologically, as I’m yet to come across one where the pastor is not regarded as a demi-god. These were cultural oddities.
    .
    When we move out of our own cultural milieu and minister according to Acts 1:8 and begin intercultural ministry in our “Samaria” we are ministering to those in a nearby culture that is like our culture of origin in some respects but is quite different from it in other respects. It is a real temptation to try and convert people to a middle-class lifestyle, if that’s your background or your aspiration, and you’re ministering here in Australia (as most churches assume that this is what the lifestyle of a Christian should be like) - and assimilation to the societal and congregational culture is seen to be key evidence of salvation and sanctification.
    .
    People who don’t assimilate to these are treated with suspicion - they are not “like us”. In True Vine CC there were many who had the fruit of the Holy Spirit flowing through their lives even in very stressful situations - living beneath the poverty level is not “a walk in the park” for anyone. [This had a profound impact on me, and still encourages me.] And as the Spirit continues changing lives into more Christlikeness, those in the groups we once belonged to notice that we are changing and no longer “like us”. This either attracts them or repels them and a gap widens.
    .
    When a person becomes a citizen of the heavenly kingdom of King Jesus, by being born-again, this becomes their primary allegiance whether they are aware of this or not. We are all called to loosen our grip on earth’s treasures be they cultural, financial or whatever, and see these things as gifts in Father God’s divine providence to be wisely used. And we enter the place of being in-between, neither hippie nor middle-class ’straight’. Allow a personal aspect here, please, my wife still experiences this in a very real way - she has been an Australian for 8yrs but doesn’t find she is in sync with some of our ways of life as Australians, [but what is really Australian we wonder - many things are] and is keenly aware that she is no longer Chinese in her heart. I admire how she has coped with all this and rests willingly in the identity she has in Christ. She is full of grace.
    .
    To live in any culture incarnationally means we will take on parts of that culture that are not opposed to Christ Jesus. This can NEVER be done in short-term ‘mission’ visits that have become so fashionable for some churches. When people see us come in and live with them and contribute to their well-being at real cost to ourselves they ask Why? And ministry occurs verbally then.
    .
    BluE Mountains? Logos Foundation, Carter, Restore - there was info on Wikipedia that I read a few years ago - maybe it’s still there and not redacted since.
    .
    Kadesh Murwillumbah? Glad the reading materials were useful back then. I have often been like Erasmus and on receiving income have methodically bought books and if any money remained would buy food. Currently culling the books again so that hopefully our library can move from the 2nd bedroom to the study area and the bedroom then be used as such - so lots of books are going to Bible Institutes in Sierra Leone and India. Some of my counselling Master’s texts though are going in the waste - who uses behaviour modification these days?
    .
    Nice to yak a bit. God bless all.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jun 11, 2011

  185. Philippians 1:27 Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel

    1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

    By Wayne on Jun 11, 2011

  186. Yes Paul, just some more thoughts.

    It was Logos Foundation and Howard Carter and Restore magazine; the latter was often floating around TVCC. I even had a subscription. Culturally incongruous in many ways, and definitely its values were extremely middle class. I believe that movement also died due to leadership excesses and moral failure.

    My experience of them was they were culturally biased against people who looked like me. At their conference I attended, one shining light of the movement preached that Christians needed to be ready to hit the road with just a back pack and preach etc. if neccesary. Myself and few others who had just returned from doing just that at a new age festival, attended the conference and we were definitely discriminated against there because our appearance.

    They had no chance of ever doing what the preacher ‘ideally’ pitched to them. Foxes had holes, the son of Man no where to lay his head. If discipleship was truly put down to living in this way, there would be few Christian disciples today, but of course it all changed with the establishment of the ecclesia and Paul’s teachings?

    Kadesh? No.

    On incarnational Christianity. One aspect of TVCC was its outreach to the alternative society. I always felt a total disdain however toward those people from the leadership that was expressed in mockery and comparison. Our community ‘worked’ theirs didnt. We were encouraged to get a job and integrate - straight = good; alternate = evil. I had always worked before entering the community but was told if I didnt work on the community land ( as i needed work discipleship) I had to leave the community. Hnsen assumed many things one that people had never worked. Once he became pastor he also did not work. If he hasd done so, at least a day aweek on the land, he would have been a more credible guide himself. I feared his ultimatum as i didnt want to leave the community’s blessing, and complied for a while, then got a job locally. Thus I was a ‘fruit’ of the discipleship programme.

    There was a christian group in the area at the time who didnt believe in money (so they said), and they produced a tract against TVCC in comic form depicting TVCC as a conduit to reintegrate those once free of Mammon back into the whore of capitalist society. There was a truth in this, but basically they understood themselves as the only ;’true’ christians for disdaining western society’s obsession with money.

    Underlying TVCC leadership was the idea that society was right and an alternative view of society was wrong. Straight society’s materialism was acceptable, not the ’spiritualism of the alternate view. What they failed to teach was that the whole world lay in the hands of the evil one.

    I find a misunderstanding of the nature of the world rife in the church. This age and its forms and systems are all tainted and shall not last, but we fail to discern between good and evil and enter into judgement based on comparisons. Hence in doing so we are deceived for we truly do not discern the nature of the world. On the other hand the world and all that is in it is also the gift of God to us, and nature as some of the better theologians once taught, is a mirror, and this creation itself shall also be redeemed.

    If TVCC set itself as an incarnational community and truly loved the alternatives instead of condemning their lifestyles, it may have had a more enduring success. A working self sufficient farm operated by Christian believers who were servants to the community would have been a step. Instead lands were sold and hurt people pushed into discipleship houses. TVCC became a discipleship factory; a legalistic system prevailed and Hansen boasted of our successes which drew more people and thus the illusion was perpetrated.

    The road (way) is fraught with danger. The pilgrim must confront many snares. Who is the wise man (woman) among you?

    The only safe place and the source of TVCCs blessing was not its discipleship ’system’ but the wonder and power of the open heaven that the spirit allowed us to enter into whenever a group of worshippers sought the Lord, this was truly an extraordinary thing and pure grace, blessing, for us. I can say I have heard the angels sing. As a charismatic group TVCC did not preach the gifts. No ceremony for receiving tongues, healing, prophecy etc. was in our litany. This all just happened during worship. Thankfully, the opening of the heavens- the experience of the Glory- remains my greatest memory, my lodestar, and at the core of my spiritual life.

    By James on Jun 12, 2011

  187. Paul,
    The parable of wheat and Tares, to me relates to doctrine, via character. Not doctrine alone. The bad characters, in nature, sons of the Devil, will lose their eternal life. Not people in false teaching. The latter could include little Jewish children, in context.

    How can it be, the Frank’s church plant in Ghana and the comings to Jesus, and Ps Bonnke’s many many converts, could be lost? Are you saying that some years down the track, they may become LDS or something?

    Wayne does not have pure doctrine, the pure teaching of the scriptures attests converts by the fruit, and there have been revivals before, like Wesley and Booth, the Salvos. The Gospel warns us that blasphemy is unclean.

    Where can I read about Blair and Warren’s objectives?

    By Novatian on Jun 12, 2011

  188. Hi Novatian

    You can read all about Rick Warren & Tony Blair at either;

    http://www.spiritual-research-network.com/tony_blair_rick_warren_saddleback_forum.html

    or through www.boldlions.wordpress.com

    By Editor on Jun 13, 2011

  189. James, yes your comments related to the land and the idea of a working farm would certainly have enhanced the community’s credibility back then. And it seems that most of the alternate communal farms that were successes in the “rainbow triangle” of northern NSW in those years have also fallen apart since.
    .
    The focus in meetings on worshipping the LORD stood out as it wasn’t dependent on ‘worship leaders’ and schmoozing the crowd, so unlike most most churches today. Though there were excellent musos there I remember many times where there was no musical accompaniment, only the human voice in song. Beautiful. Days of heaven on earth.
    .
    Although it could not be replicated, as every situation is unique, there were valuable principles that were universal. God looks for those who will worship him in spirit and in truth.
    .
    That Frank Houston auspiced TVCC was to his credit. That there was poor oversight and a middle-class agenda [not a gospel agenda] to ’straight’-en the True-ies, is to Frank’s discredit. And also to Les and Jim’s discredit.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jun 13, 2011

  190. The ABSOLUTE Truth of the Word of God cannot be diluted in any way if we are to properly honour the TRUE GOD who HIMSELF has exalted HIS WORD ABOVE HIS NAME

    Ps. 138:2: “For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.”

    Clearly the Bible teaches that ALL have sinned. Genuine believers are the FIRST to admit that and to humbly acknowledge their absolute need of for the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

    We are not to promote ourselves in any way but when the Gospel of Jesus Christ is consistently maligned in favour of another Gospel and another Jesus Christ it is time for the truly Born Again Bible Believing Christian to stand up for the Truth of HIS WORD.

    By Wayne on Jun 13, 2011

  191. Danny Nalliah must be kidding himself in starting up a new political party - called “Rise Up Australia (Keep Australia Australian)”. It is anti-multiculturalism, or so their website says today, They don’t say they are anti- a multifaith Australia now - so it appears that Danny has had a change of mind about Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc altogether in this country - and they’re all okay ????
    So exactly which of the many, many cultures that are in Australia is the singular one that he endorses??? More than one culture of course means it is multicultural - so the Reverend Doctor will need to be very specific as to which culture he will allow - probably a ditty sung to a popular tune will gradually change our national mindset …. mmmm, I feel a song coming now “Football, meat pies, Evensong, and Holden cars ……”
    .
    We recognise that the RevDr Nalliah originally was from South Asia and may be unaware of Australia’s multicultural history and that long before the European invasion there were many Aboriginal nations here who had different cultures. As the LORD gave them the custodianship of this Land surely they are the people who ethically should make such a momentous decision as ‘Which monoculture shall Australia adopt universally?’, if indeed such a decision should be made.
    .
    Somehow Nalliah’s political aspirations seem like deja vu, all over again! [Redhead, please explain, etc.] Or is it yet another right-wing Fundamentalist-Christian ‘trojan horse’ to allure Christ’s followers efforts away from gospel work to polling day focus, I wonder.
    .
    Christian Democratic Party failed as being in anyway democratic - google why Gordon Moyes left them and joined Family First Party - a one-time True Vine member, Peter Madden, was the CDP candidate for the seat of Sydney in the NSW March 2011 State elections.
    Family First Party is a fizzler IMO as they don’t keep only with the tools of truth. Their Senate candidate for Queensland, Wendy Francis, was on a panel interview of 4 parties televised the day before the Federal election in 2010, and she really ‘lost it’ near the end (as people often do in these contrived situations) finally saying/pleading don’t vote for the Greens because that is a vote for child abuse because they are for same-sex marriage, vote for us and family values”. On hearing this spin she lost my vote. When Christian politicians lie, they lose their advantage as Christians IMHO.
    .
    What are others’ thoughts on these matters?

    By Paul, a small potato on Jun 14, 2011

  192. Paul I think Christians fail to understand the nature of the world. It is not a Christian world, never was and never will be. Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world; I believe he said that.

    Christians shocked at the morality of the age known to some now as “Late Capitalism” or “Postmodernity”, appeal to an earlier epoch when Christian values ruled society. This is also a doubtful premise outside of the individual or individual family group.

    Western political parties, governments, Christian empires, have been anything but Christian in their outworking of policy, international relations, or the establishment of colonial possessions. At best Christian morality was a veneer from which under they operated in unchristian ways.

    Present conservative parties in the West seek the Christian vote on issues such as abortion, gay marriage, Islam etc. The same parties in this country have proven themselves to be uncharitable to outsiders, prejudiced and deceitful; yet Christians who think they can change the world support such groups, and in effect are also being deceived, empowering parties which basically want your vote so they can win power and continue legislating in ways which support oppression, greed, profiteering and prejudice.

    I learnt a lot from various American church groups (non-evangelical) who see the need for a Christian voice in areas of social justice. This in the spirit of Amos is our real action in a world we are “in” but told to not be part of. Arguably what constitutes justice may also be relative. But why justice in one area and not all? I think F. Houston was right when he said Christianity could not be legislated. Every heart must adhere to Christ’s teaching on a personal level is also true.

    Eschatology of course is also a big factor in determining ones political viewpoint, and an area to big to discuss here. Simply, Danny Nahlia’s political manifesto is slightly disturbing. Especially in regard to indigenous people who he says now after receiving Rudd’s ’sorry’ should be publically thankful for all the benefits they have received from the nation. Here there is no examination of our past or the means of their initial dispossession by Christians. It is a perverse attitude lacking any moral, cultural or historical understanding. One just wonders at the level of compassion and empathy in a person who could make such a statement. When one thinks of the Tower of Siloam, Nahlia’s claim that the Vic bushfires were judgement on Victorians for the passing of abortion laws should really only disgust christian sensibility. Sure he may appear as a prophet to some, and they will be fooled by his moral stand etc. but be not surprized that even satan can transform himself into a minister of righteousness. ll finish here leaving many loose ends…

    Weymouth New Testament, John 5: 19:

    We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the Evil one.

    By James on Jun 14, 2011

  193. I agree. Justice in all areas is the LORD’s requirement of those who are stewards of Creation, and every person stands accountable before him for their part of their stewardship of this and of his grace. Involvement in this world is therefore necessary rather than withdrawal from it - but how much involvement can we sustain while fulfilling the companion call to be separate from the world. Influencing others is by nature political, though not necessarily Party Political. Here in Oz so-called Christian political parties have had limited spectrum of issues they will address and IMO those mentioned above still have quite a way to go to become credible. Some Christians become politicians and join other parties that don’t brand their “faith” as a credential - however this straightjackets them into the party-line on issues. Some compromise is necessary in achieving outcomes for a populace, but how much and on what, is often where a Christian finds their party lets them down - whether right wing or left wing or in between. Perhaps a better position is for individual Independent politicians when considering the influencing of government according to conscience? Yet the individual’s scope of capacity is much narrower than that of a party. There are no easy answers, are there.
    .
    In times of uncertainty people value a sure voice. ‘Family values’ is a very nebulous concept - for there are so many different kinds of families - yet it appeals to most of us, doesn’t it. Ask around your associates about what this idea means in their understanding - there’ll be different answers for sure. Even gospel preachers differ on this.

    It’s a concern that is worthy of consideration, while bearing in mind the parable of the sower and the four types of ground.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jun 18, 2011

  194. It is IMPOSSIBLE to legislate righteousness. Not one sinful act in Sodom and Gomorrah would have been prevented by legislation and the same is true today.

    The heart of man is only evil continually.

    “And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
    (Luke 17:20-21 KJV)

    In that statement, Jesus was declaring a spiritual truth that Israel did not see. But on another occasion, when asked about His Kingdom by Pontius Pilate, He gave a somewhat different answer:

    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
    (John 18:36 KJV)

    In this particular passage the word “now” is not speaking about the spiritual Kingdom of God (within you), but of a literal political Kingdom yet to come on the Earth.

    John 15:18-19
    New International Version (NIV)
    The World Hates the Disciples

    18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

    The role of the church is to Preach the Gospel of Salvation and to Teach the Word of God to those who will listen. Democratic political activity by its very nature requires popularity with the world to be effective. The Bible clearly teaches that this popularity is worldly and NOT spiritual or of God and is therefore at enmity with HIS spiritual objectives.

    To compromise the Word of God in any way for short term political gain is to corrupt the entire Word and is an offense to God Himself.

    This uncompromising approach to BIBLICAL (authentic) christianity has NEVER been and NEVER will be popular with the World.

    This is why it will never be successful in winning an election.

    By Wayne on Jun 19, 2011

  195. Compromise is a fact of life. You may want a hospital built in every town of over 1,000 population, but there’s not enough money available - so you settle for a scheme where a hospital is built for every town of over 1,500 population. That’s compromise as it occurs daily in politics.
    Don’t confuse political compromise with ethical compromise or compromise of the Lord’s teachings.

    By Paul on Jun 21, 2011

  196. That form of secular political activity has nothing whatsoever to do with the dodgy efforts of people and political groups that like to refer to themselves as christian and the compromises they are prepared to make for the sake of vote catching and worldly popularity.

    Ecumenical activity, encouraging a false form of unity between formerly bible believing christians and the Roman Catholic church is a classic example of deserting Bible principles in favour of the wisdom of men and the popularity of the masses.

    This is the compromise which is offensive to God.

    By Wayne on Jun 21, 2011

  197. The way of God is foolishness to the people of this world, and God says the ways of this world are foolishness to Him.

    The uncompromising Bible Believing christian is therefore unpopular with the world in general and certainly unlikely to be elected by popular vote of the general population to implement Bible principles and standards in a democratic society.

    This foolishness to the people of the world is the cross of Jesus Christ NOT the occultic new-age silliness which many religious people seem to want to go on with.

    God has never asked us to have faith in anything that was silly and without a rational and logical foundation.

    When we “glory in men”, such as “the anointed” we are regularly instructed to “follow without question,” we deceive ourselves.

    When we place our total trust in men whether they seem to be preachers/politicians of righteousness or not, we are deceiving ourselves.

    The word ‘deceive’ in the above scriptures is from the Greek word that means “to deceive.” It is not the same word that is translated ‘deceive’ in other scriptures that caution us about someone who is trying to deceive or seduce us to believe what they want us to believe. That word means deluding or seducing to draw us away from the path of God.

    I Cor. 3:
    18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool (let him reject worldly wisdom and accept Godly wisdom), that he may be wise.
    19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
    21 ¶ Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

    FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD ALONE IS WHAT GOD REQUIRES

    By Wayne on Jun 21, 2011

  198. Wayne : re : “In this particular passage the word “now” is not speaking about the spiritual Kingdom of God (within you), but of a literal political Kingdom yet to come on the Earth.”

    I feel in concord with most things you said in the post this quote was taken from but I seriously doubt Jesus was speaking about a ‘political’ kingdom in the future. The entire world system (of which politics is a salient facet) will pass with the passing of the world/present age.

    I tend to follow the understanding of E Stanley Jones and his teaching/interpretation concerning the kingdom. it is a spiritual kingdom that has always been, will always be; it is beyond time and this present age but can be experienced now in the fruit of the spirit as it will be in fullness when this age’s ‘time’ is up. What it exactly is/will be is unclear (as we see through a glass darkly). Personally I believe in its revealed fullness there will be no need of politics. it will mean a new order of being for all believers joined to Christ. Obviously, I am also not premillenarian in my eschatological outlook.

    By James on Jun 22, 2011

  199. God is as great now, as when he began to give us his word. We need him much much more than his word. But the word and the Spirit together and we are nourished in heart, for holiness. Know the word, as for the Spirit, and you will not get anything unclean but the good, such as the living water. Frank knew this, and asked for amending power. To say God cannot or will not is blasphemy.

    By Novatian on Jun 25, 2011

  200. Know the word, ask for the Spirit, ask for the latter rain, you must not call Him filth. He not only is clean, not only as pure as fire that cleans but purer than even the stars. Frank asked for this grace, in whatever struggle he had. God is no respecter of persons. David sought God, right. Frank sought application of the cross, right, don’t waste Jesus blood. You cannot politely turn down Jesus blood.

    By Novatian on Jun 26, 2011

  201. Peter identified the era beginning at Acts 2:1ff as the Last Days - thus we are already in them just as we are already in the New Covenant era. This era is the most wonderful era in human history - for Messiah-Christ Jesus is much better than all who have lived before, none has been or will be greater (see Hebrews ch3 and onwards regarding some of the dimensions of how he is ‘better’).
    .
    Peter points out that in fulfilment of Isaiah’s prophecy (Isa 44:3) the gift of the Holy Spirit is available to all the elect throughout the then-future generations. What a wonderful gift Messiah-Christ has given us - we have a Person as a gift, not an object. This is full of wonder, if we will take the time to contemplate upon this we will recognise this. The Person we have been given is one of the eternal triune Godhead, who is ever-present.
    Why, then, should we ask for ‘the latter rain’ Novatian? I’m not a farmer in Israel, and I wonder whether the weather may not have altered in the intervening millennia since the original prophecy. If you are referring to some ‘experience’ beyond the gift of the Holy Spirit then you may be asking amiss - just as the Arminian-Wesleyans do in their experience-seeking for Entire Sanctification, which some pentecostalists have included in their eclectic theologies as The Third Blessing.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jun 26, 2011

  202. Blasphemy defined as
    a. A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.

    b. The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.

    2. An irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct.

    The false teaching by these latter rain false teachers to set themselves up as having special revelation or anointings placing them and their false teachings above the clear teachings of the Word of God is clearly blasphemous. To teach that they are above the Biblical requirement for repentance and as public figures to repent publicly and to dare to teach openly that to question these anointed ones in any way is against the will of God and subject Bible believing (authentic) christians to such religious bullying is genuine blasphemy by ALL definitions.

    Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:
    for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

    This shows clearly the esteem which GOD HIMSLEF has for HIS WORD. GOD ESTEEMS HIS WORD ABOVE HIS NAME.

    Placing false teachers and prophets and their false teachings and false prophecies above HIS WORD is also genuine BLASPHEMY by the standards imposed by the BIBLE - THE WORD OF GOD.

    GOD REQUIRES FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD ONLY

    By Wayne on Jun 26, 2011

  203. Turning away from the Word of God - The Bible is genuine blasphemy leading to eternal damnation.

    I have come to the conclusion that the primary purpose of HIS WORD is to Warn the FAITHFUL to have NOTHING whatsoever to do with this Latter Rain filth.

    This Latter Rain intrusion into genuine Biblical christianity is a classic example of BLASPHEMY by ALL definitions but particularly the standards imposed by the BIBLE - The Word of God as outlined below for those who intend to remain, by the grace of God, a part of the Faithful Remnant until the Judgement Day.

    In 1949 the General Council of the Assemblies of God held in Seattle overwhelmingly approved a resolution that was prepared by a committee that dealt with the Latter Rain Movement. The resolution adopted disapproved of the following practices of the Latter Rain, and the action was made necessary as a result of the movement invading the Assembly of God churches:
    1. The overemphasis relative to imparting, identifying, bestowing, or confirming of gifts by the laying on of hands and prophecy.
    2. The erroneous teaching that the church is built on the foundation of present-day
    apostles and prophets.
    3. The extreme teaching as advocated by the “New Order,” regarding the confession of sin to man and deliverance as practised, which claims prerogatives to human agency which belongs only to Christ.
    4. The erroneous teaching concerning the impartation of the gift of languages as
    special equipment for missionary service.
    5. The extreme and unscriptural practice of imparting or imposing personal leadings by the means of the gifts of utterance.
    6. Such other wresting and distortions of scripture interpretations, which are in opposition to teachings and practices generally accepted among us. -
    See Endnotes (1)
    The Latter Rain featured individuals with “oil in the hands”; congregational singing of “the song of the Lord”, singing in the Spirit; the emphasis on “God is doing a new thing”; the manifested sons of God teaching; the placing of experience over exposition; the branding of those who denounced the movement; getting away from what the church had been.
    In a letter from the Executive Presbytery of the Assemblies of God (April 20, 1949), these observations were given. They are still valid today.

    “The true test of any movement is whether or not it will stand up under the light of the Word of God. We cannot depend alone upon the testimony of spiritual blessing, which many have claimed to have received under the `new order.’
    “When the `Jesus Only’ issue swept the country in the years 1914-1917, there was a constant testimony that this was a revelation from God accompanied by great spiritual blessing. The movement was judged,
    however, not on the testimony of spiritual blessings, but on its adherence to the scriptures. When it was found that its claims did not conform to sound doctrine, its message was rejected. Dire calamities were predicted upon all who failed to `walk in the light’ of that `revelation’ but all predictions failed of fulfilment. We have heard similar predictions for failure to accept the `new order’ teaching, which we regret exceedingly.”

    “How shall we labour with any effect to build up the Church if we have no thorough knowledge of her history or fail to apprehend it from the proper point of observation? History is, and must ever continue to be, next to God’s Word, the richest foundation of wisdom and sweet guide to all successful practical activity.”

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

    Proverbs 3

    1My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

    2For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

    3Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:

    4So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

    5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

    6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

    7Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

    8It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

    9Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

    10So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

    11My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

    12For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

    13Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

    By Wayne on Jun 26, 2011

  204. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

    1 Corinthians 11:2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.

    Any perversion of the Word of God whatsoever perverts the entire teaching of the Word of God and this is why this Latter Rain filth MUST be resisted by ALL who will be saved.

    By Wayne on Jun 26, 2011

  205. All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou? (Daniel 4:35).

    GOD IS IN TOTAL CONTROL - HOW DARE WE DISOBEY HIS WORD OR ATTEMPT TO IMPOSE OUR WILL ON HIM as these latter rain imposters are so blasphemously doing.

    By Wayne on Jun 26, 2011

  206. I don’t believe Latter Rain Christians all, if any, really put their word over God’s. Maybe fringe groups do, or maybe what they are saying is that God is above their understanding as teachers, as He is the true Teacher of all Truth.

    Wayne you’ve said “Turning away from the Word of God - The Bible is genuine blasphemy leading to eternal damnation.” “I have come to the conclusion that the primary purpose of HIS WORD is to Warn the FAITHFUL to have NOTHING whatsoever to do with this Latter Rain filth.”

    What nonsense, and there is no need to refer to “filth”.

    THE SCRIPTURE IS SACRED! Why do you defy with HOPELESS definitions from the dictionary?

    Look at the great command, “LOVE the Lord your God, with all your heart, mind and strength.”

    Love in Webster’s falls well short, passionate affection, benevolent affection for God and His creatures, reverent affection they owe him. How does that compare with 1 Corinthians 13?

    Blasphemy is listed in the Gospel as an unclean thing, a thought in the heart, by implication a spirit. SCRIPTURE EXPLAINS SCRIPTURE. The dictionary is insufficient, yet you use it to ‘discern spirits’.

    Here from scripture comes the understanding of BLASPHEMY Wayne:

    ASV
    2Ki 18:32 Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of grain and new wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of olive-trees and of honey, that ye may live, and not die: and hearken not unto Hezekiah, when he persuadeth you, saying, Jehovah will deliver us.
    2Ki 18:33 Hath any of the gods of the nations ever delivered his land out of the hand of the king of Assyria?
    2Ki 18:34 Where are the gods of Hamath, and of Arpad? where are the gods of Sepharvaim, of Hena, and Ivvah? have they delivered Samaria out of my hand?
    2Ki 18:35 Who are they among all the gods of the countries, that have delivered their country out of my hand, that Jehovah should deliver Jerusalem out of my hand?
    2Ki 18:36 But the people held their peace, and answered him not a word; for the king’s commandment was, saying, Answer him not.

    Now blasphemy from scripture is saying God is not, or God cannot do as He promises, or God will not does as He promised.

    THEREFORE, IF YOU SAY YOU ASK YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER FOR BREAD OF LIFE, OR HEAR ANOTHER HONESTLY ASKING, BUT YOU SAY THEY WILL GET AN UNCLEAN SPIRIT, GOD IS NOT, OR DOES NOT OR CANNOT GIVE, IT IS BLASPHEMY!

    God is stronger than Satan and will not allow him part in the table of grace. God will not lie but loves us and keeps his word.

    As for ‘Latter Rain outpourings’ of the living water, it can include the bread of life, or other forms of God’s presence. It comes from Joel, Wayne and Paul.

    ASV
    Joe 2:21 Fear not, O land, be glad and rejoice; for Jehovah hath done great things.
    Joe 2:22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field; for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth its fruit, the fig-tree and the vine do yield their strength.
    Joe 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the former rain in just measure, and he causeth to come down for you the rain, the former rain and the latter rain, in the first month.
    Joe 2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with new wine and oil.
    Joe 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the canker-worm, and the caterpillar, and the palmer-worm, my great army which I sent among you.
    Joe 2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, and shall praise the name of Jehovah your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you; and my people shall never be put to shame.
    Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am Jehovah your God, and there is none else; and my people shall never be put to shame.
    Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
    Joe 2:29 and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.

    See Paul, a metaphor from God.

    By Novatian on Jun 29, 2011

  207. Mmm, there’s nothing like a good metaphor, Novatian. Thanks.
    .
    Peter’s sermon quotes Joel 2:28-32a via the Septuagint translation into Greek (which seems to be the version the early disciples mainly used). He identifies its fulfilment most plainly with the events occurring on that particular Day of Pentecost - and note that these events are the “… Afterward I will pour out my Spirit …”
    .
    The question is after what? Pentecostal blessing came after the incarnation and blessing Israel received in the life and work of Messiah-Christ. Much like the blessing prophesied in Joel 2:19-27 which also seems to have been fulfilled spiritually rather than physically.
    I’ve read a few translations on these passages and didn’t find anywhere that we are told to ask for the latter rain, mate. It seems pretty clear to me that this part of the prophecy was fulfilled before that Pentecostal outpouring - and we have received great spiritual blessings in Christ already.
    Isn’t it good to reflect on his wonderful grace to ALL the elect in these promises. God bless you.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jun 30, 2011

  208. I know a wonderful Moslem man who is very devout committed to the public good and the promotion of his faith BUT I would NOT dare to suggest that these things are enough to save him. I would NOT dare to suggest that he is saved because of my impression of him.

    Similarly I know lovely people who profess NO religious faith whatsoever and a man much more devout than I will ever be with a shrine to his God erected in his home and a commitment to praying at least 6 times a day and a range of dietary and behavioural restrictions on his life because of his religious perspectives.

    The false Latter Rain religion leading people into “the deeper truths” of the wolves directing this great apostasy foretold repeatedly in Bible prophecy leads to hopelessly deluded individuals who may or may not be devout and clean living.

    Sadly the bible informs me that these “wonderful” people are hopelessly LOST without the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Knowing God by virtue of the Word HE has provided for us to know HIM by

    ONLY COMMITMENT TO THE Lord JESUS CHRIST represented to us in the bible is sufficient for salvation. ALL else is relative to mere human opinion and hopelessly futile.

    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God;
    that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. ( I John 5:13)

    The apostle John’s ministry is one of restoration. The TRUE knowledge of God had been supplanted in the minds of many believers by mystics and gnostics, whose visions, dreams and exotic spiritual experiences undermined confidence, in simple faith in Jesus Christ.

    The issue is the knowledge of God;
    Who truly knows God? Who is truly Anointed? What does it mean to know God? Who is Jesus? Was HE a believer who obtained secret knowledge which elevated him, or is Jesus God?
    Did HE only seem to be “in the flesh”?
    What does it mean to be spiritual?

    The Apostle John takes us back to the very beginning, giving us three simple statements concerning the nature of “the only true God”.

    God is light and in him is no darkness at all…

    God is love…

    and

    Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

    The identity of the only true God is the only thing that matters, for eternal life is “…knowing you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”.

    By Wayne on Jun 30, 2011

  209. Psalm 40 shows a love from God enduring sin, and despite sin. King David a public figure and sadly a known sinner, laughed at, “aha, aha” asked God for help, in bondage to sin, “the miry clay”. Frank Houston was in this mire too, and admirably refused to blaspheme the love of God in Christ Jesus.

    Jesus grace was in and through him. Showing the true love of God, to sinners and just.

    This concept of a loving God is really Jesus, it is to know Him who is loving rather than angry, offended, judgmental. The latter comes at the end. Now is grace, the love, as presences, as Spirit, Jesus blood, and the latter may not be turned down politely. Frank gave Him away, as according to the Gospel, addressed to sinners first. Blood sacrifice for law breakers.

    Knowing He was flesh and blood is important to us Pentecostals. And knowing Him personally, by receiving Christ, conscious God, into our hearts, being born again. With turning from all known sin. Discerning by the Bible.

    Only by Jesus, by the Holy Spirit, and Him coming in to transform and change us, are we able, to come to the presence of God, that is Heaven, when we die. For God is Holy and cannot tolerate sin in His presence, a power within one’s heart must be, to change us, for His presence and eternal fellowship.

    This presence and power of God issue, Heaven and the Throne room, needs emphasis on God as word giver and presence as Spirit more than just recalling by self effort and memory the word of God. It is written that God’s Spirit is Teacher of all Truth and is the power by which it is worked, and He brings the right verses to mind, at the time.

    It is like a sword, but the hand holding it matters, where it strikes, the shape is the word on record, the mass, cutting power, weight, is power, hidden in His presence.

    By Novatian on Jun 30, 2011

  210. Wayne,
    One of your 26/6 comments above says ‘ - The Bible is genuine blasphemy leading to eternal damnation.’
    Novatian has reacted with his/her comment of 29/6 with “What nonsense” partly towards this phrase. Perhaps the larger context of your writings would give us the clue that this would not be what you mean here as it is contradictory to your high regard for the enscripted word of God. Miscommunication on this has happened because one hyphen was omitted after the word “Bible”, then your meaning would have been clear.
    (How easy it is for little mistakes to be used as fuel on fires. It’s a lesson for all of us, isn’t it.)

    By Paul, a small potato on Jul 1, 2011

  211. I must admit Wayne Proverbs 16:4 is hard to grasp, with;
    ASV
    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    Joh 3:17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.

    Isaiah 55:8 goes with, and in full;
    ASV
    Psa 103:11 For as the heavens are high above the earth, So great is his lovingkindness toward them that fear him.

    And;
    ASV
    Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    Which says to David and all men called, that you must not think yourself unworthy to proclaim God’s love and serve God and accept sonship, and be used of Him, for it above your understanding, you will understand in eternity.

    Yes, trust, the Creator Spirit’s understanding. He creates us, places us, He is responsible for us.

    ASV
    Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    Sent for salvations and love, for “come Holy Spirit.”

    Emphasis on His presence, and power, knowing Him, relationship, for entry to Heaven. The Word is a ladder up to Him just near us, a lens for seeing Him.

    MKJV
    Act 17:26 And He has made all nations of men of one blood to dwell on all the face of the earth, ordaining fore-appointed seasons and boundaries of their dwelling,
    Act 17:27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they might feel after Him and find Him, though indeed He is not far from each one of us.

    To have the Word and not this, what’s the point?

    By Novatian on Jul 2, 2011

  212. Novatian,
    Have you considered the Joel ch2 passage again? As you see, it is a declaration by Yahweh as to what he will do before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and as a result of it.
    There is no invitation to ask for a Latter Rain experience in this passage, friend.

    By Paul, a small potato on Jul 2, 2011

  213. I MUST reiterate in the strongest possible terms:

    Doctrinal corruption can cause one to forfeit one’s salvation (Gal. 5: 1-4, Col. 2: 7-9). Indifference to the clear teaching of scripture and acceptance of the hybrid religion masquerading as christianity today is sending many people, who like to refer to themselves as christian, to HELL.

    Matthew 7:22-24 (King James Version)

    22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

    This is a horrifying reality to those of us who do care about the TRUTH of the WORD of GOD and the consequences awaiting those who accept its perversion so carelessly.

    Hence, the necessity for contending earnestly for the faith.

    By Wayne on Jul 2, 2011

  214. Rather than try to explain it all repeatedly on this blog I URGE you to google articles such as:

    “Anointing or Apostasy = The Legacy of the Latter Rain” by Charles Graves.

    Why is Latter Rain, Dominionism, and Kingdom Now Theology False? provides a veritable minefield of information.

    http://www.erwm.com/Latter%20Rain.htm

    Read them thoroughly and prayerfully.

    2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    1 Corinthians 16:13 Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong.

    Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

    There is ONLY ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST and HIS WORD IS AVAILABLE TO US IN THE BIBLE.

    By Wayne on Jul 2, 2011

  215. The Latter Rain verses, are for gentiles as well. And living water is for souls, from age to age.

    By Novatian on Jul 3, 2011

  216. Here is another couple of very interesting resource for ALL bible believing christians as they seek to avoid the delusion sweeping through previously bible based church groups.

    WIDE IS THE GATE: The Emerging New Christianity

    A look into the invasion of the old
    New Age Movement
    in today’s Post Modern Church

    “Wide is the Gate represents one last clarion call to an apostate church to turn away from the seducing spirits and doctrines of demons that have lured her from sound doctrine and from the purity and simplicity of devotion to Jesus Christ.” - Author Johanna Michaelsen.

    AN URGENT CALL TO A SERIOUS FAITH
    DVD by Dave Hunt
    Presenting the powerful message of the Gospel, Dave shows how understanding the biblical view of God’s plan to save the world will affect the way in which true believers live the Christian life. Filmed at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa.

    By Wayne on Jul 3, 2011

  217. David J. Stewart has made these very true comments at www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/assemblies_of_god.htm

    “LOSING SALVATION HERESY

    “I personally believe that MANY Assemblies of God followers are NOT saved. There is a serious doctrinal problem with the belief that you can LOSE YOUR SALVATION. Listen friend, if I didn’t have to do GOOD WORKS to get my salvation, then how can I lose my salvation by doing BAD WORKS? It’s just not good Bible to teach that a person can lose their salvation! We are saved by God’s grace through childlike faith in the Saviour (Ephesians 2:8-9). To teach that a person can “fall from grace” is unscriptural. Just as the physical birth CANNOT be undone, so likewise the spiritual birth CANNOT be undone. It is heresy to teach that a person can be born again and then lose that new birth because of sin or apostasy. The TRUTH is that many people “fall away” from the things of God because they were never saved to begin with (1st John 2:19). God NEVER disowns one of His own children. Jesus PROMISED that we would never perish…

    “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” —John 10:28

    “Jesus NEVER said anything about “losing” our salvation. If we could lose our salvation, don’t you think the Bible would have much more to say about the matter. The FACT is that the Bible has NOTHING to say about losing one’s salvation. Those who “fall from grace” are those who have rejected the gospel and is so doing have damned themselves. No believer can ever fall from grace. Once a person is saved, they are SAVED FOREVER. Then Bible is clear on this issue of eternal security.

    “I sincerely question the salvation of anyone who believes that they have to MAINTAIN a certain level of spirituality to remain saved. I simply do NOT believe that such a person is saved. The Methodist church, United Methodist church, and Free Methodist church all believe that a person can lose their salvation if they fall away from the Lord. It is in effect, a “works” salvation. The TRUTH is that salvation is a FREE gift (Romans 5:15). A gift is received, not earned. A true “gift” CANNOT be lost or taken away if it was truly a gift to begin with. God’s free gift of eternal life was paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. Once we receive that GIFT by faith, it can NEVER BE LOST! I sincerely question the salvation of the Assemblies of God. I KNOW I am saved by the grace of God, I do NOT worry about losing what I had nothing to do with in the first place. Salvation is of the Lord, not man. Our part is to simply trust.”

    By Paul, a small potato on Jul 3, 2011

  218. 1 Timothy 4:1

    Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times (some} shall DEPART from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    FALSE OR MISDIRECTED FAITH will not save.
    People who remained with the Pope during the Reformation have clearly gone to Hell because of their misdirected or FALSE faith for example. It is highly unlikely that these people were ever saved however.

    Perhaps the poor people deluded by this latter rain, neo pentecostal neo charismatic nonsense were not saved in the first place BUT this passage actually says they were IN THE FAITH before Departing FROM THE FAITH which clearly suggests a forfeiture of salvation.

    By Wayne on Jul 3, 2011

  219. So Wayne, I asked about this before. Which of Reinhard Bonnke’s converts are right, and which are forfeiting their salvation?

    By Novatian on Jul 4, 2011

  220. Could it be that at the time when Danny Nalliah had preached his message, he didn’t know much about Frank Houstons Past, it would be no different than any christian, trying to bring up the past about the bible and making a simple mistake concerning the timeframe of events.
    but also looking to the Kingdom Benefits of Franks Ministry,before he revealed his dark past before his resignation, as we all too easily love to assault the physical error of man, but even failing to recognize what God has in plan of the Spiritual use of any man

    By masamune on Jul 11, 2011

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  222. I remember Frank Houston back in the early 70s in NZ. He, like a lot of charismatic preachers, had a large ego. I was 20yrs old at the time and my girl friend was 18yrs old. We were at a camp and Frank asked for people who wanted help to come to the front. Both my girl friend and I went forward. Frank asked me to breath in and out rapidly to exorcise evil spirits. After a while he asked if I had tingly fingers, I replied that I did, to which he responded by casting out the demon of masturbation (??). I was shocked later to find he had used the same process on my girlfriend. I was so angry with this procedure that I directly confronted Frank on the inappropriateness of this, and rather than explain or defend his method, he treated me as if I was a demon attempting to destroy his ministry.

    I didn’t suspect Frank of being a pedaphile but knowing that he was also dealing with young homosexuals. I certainly think he was delusional and would have done some weird stuff in driving out gay demons. I left the church shortly after and became an atheist.

    By trevor on Jul 12, 2011

  223. ONLY COMMITMENT TO THE Lord JESUS CHRIST represented to us in the bible is sufficient for salvation. ALL else is relative to mere human opinion and hopelessly futile.

    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God;
    that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. ( I John 5:13)

    The apostle John’s ministry is one of restoration. The TRUE knowledge of God had been supplanted in the minds of many believers by mystics and gnostics, whose visions, dreams and exotic spiritual experiences undermined confidence, in simple faith in Jesus Christ.

    The issue is the knowledge of God;

    Who truly knows God? Who is truly Anointed? What does it mean to know God? Who is Jesus? Was HE a believer who obtained secret knowledge which elevated him, or is Jesus God?
    Did HE only seem to be “in the flesh”?
    What does it mean to be spiritual?

    The Apostle John takes us back to the very beginning, giving us three simple statements concerning the nature of “the only true God”.

    God is light and in him is no darkness at all…
    God is love…
    and
    Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

    The identity of the only true God is the only thing that matters, for eternal life is “…knowing YOU, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”.

    Moderators Note:
    Wayne as recently outlined, we need the scriptures you quote to link directly to a previous comment/s, or a current theme within the blog. Otherwise the quotes will not be published regardless of how relevant they may seem at the time… Thanks

    By Wayne on Jul 12, 2011

  224. Hello Trevor, what Frank does, or anyone, should not take you away from Jesus, Jesus is worth the patient wait. Jesus reality does not depend on Frank. Please forgive Frank.

    By Novatian on Jul 12, 2011

  225. Trevor,
    Thanks for writing here - it is a side of Frank H that no-one has mentioned here yet - and is significant that these events caused you to lose faith. I’m wondering if you’d like to share about your approach to faith in Jesus Christ since that time, too?

    By Paul, a mashed potato on Jul 13, 2011

  226. Hello Trevor,

    You stated that you became an atheist after some dealings with a “Frank Houston Experience”.
    Since you’ve written on this christian blog I am assuming you’ve found your faith journey again? If this is the case I am pleased for you.
    I agree that there were plenty of weird things happening from time to time in NZ in the time you refer to. It would appear we must be of a similar age and must have wittnessed similar “Goings On!!”.

    I was talking to a younger brother about the old days. He informed me of wittnessing mass “Call Outs” by Frank for deliverance from masturbation. I must confess I was never present at such happenings so I can only take his word for this. I do recall however that I was invited to a Penticostal young persons dinner back in those days. We were all dressed up and the girls were sitting opposite the boys. The “Preacher” then decided to speak about the “Secret Sin”. Well you guessed it!!

    My point being that at the time I never “Clicked” as to what was clearly an “Inappropriate Sermon” given the situation.

    Later this Penticostal Preacher was exposed for a series of willing female acolytes furnishing his rampant needs!! The same appears to be true of old Frank.

    Despite Franks dark side I know I’ve attempted to portray another side to the man on this blog. I’ve done so as it reflects only how I found him personally. Other folk relate different experiences.

    I find that as we grow older and hopefully wiser, we are more astute at reading the “Signs”. When I look back I can see that many preachers who were “Blowing their Trumpet” on some moral issue or another where in fact “covering” some issue of their own.

    Some time ago I was invited to a Father and Son Breakfast BBQ. The speaker was known to me and we often engaged in Penti/verses/Anglican theology discussions. He informed me that his topic was about the “Secret Sin”; You guessed right!!. I found it interesting that his wife had stuck by him after “many” affairs.

    He came across with that sort of “Super Godly” attitude that only these Penticostal chaps do well. I guess “Super Godly” means “Super Desires” perhaps. My comment to him was to get a life and no I would not be attending. I felt there were many other valuable issues he could talk on.

    I suppose that now we are older and wiser it gives us an opportunity to “Alert” the pastors around us. There are a lot more legal requirements and duty of care issues at hand now than in the 70’s; thank God.

    Kiddie Checks and so on are mandatory now with youth and childrens work in the Parishes.

    Any way Trevor, All the best to you.

    God Bless us All,
    Brother Kevin

    By Brother Kevin on Jul 13, 2011

  227. I think the WW2 generation had respectable big egos. “Unforgettable, that’s what we are.”
    It is good if Frank overcame masturbation and sought the erring in the congregation did as well.

    Pastors have often had vices, alcoholism, sex, anger, whichever to overcome while in ministry rather than before. The grace comes with faith and want, and proclamation rather than reputation, but it should also come. It did not in the case of AA Alan. The alcoholic preacher in the US.

    I am sure the Corinthians had problems among the gifted alike Sydney CLC. They were shamed for fighting each-other before pagan courts, rather than for sexual faltering.
    Jesus wants, by His blood, no condemnation, no guilt, no shame. Instead amendment, repentances, surrender, fruition of love, joy, and peace… Paul said, “that which I love, that I don’t do, that which I hate, that I do.” In his fight with sin.

    We should overcome sin, and earn rewards. As we get older, we should be holy in our walk.

    By Novatian on Jul 13, 2011

  228. A A Alan did coduit grace, but himself did not overcome. John Wesley began under advice from the Moravians before he saw himself as ready, and managed.

    Paul the apostle said, he wished people would proclaim the Gospel, even if only to make trouble for him in prison.

    It is not Saul, inspired, conscience cleared, post conversion Paul. It is that Paul was often cleansed by Jesus’ blood. He was bold in Jesus’ forgiveness, understanding the cross, and being imparted Jesus’ blood, made him clean, just, warm, healed, and no guilt.

    By Novatian on Jul 21, 2011

  229. It is for God alone to determine where Frank Houston or anybody else belongs for eternity.

    The issue here is the ridiculous behaviour by Nalliah and the refusal of people who like to call themselves christian to recognize that this man has disqualified himself as the prophet he claims to be by his repeated failures to satisfy biblical criteria for such recognition.

    The biblical consequence for ONE failure let alone his repeated failures is stoning to death (metaphorically, of course).

    Without biblical credibility he is really no more than a very silly man as far as the christian church is concerned.

    By Wayne on Jul 21, 2011

  230. The first epistle of John addresses the conflict between such counterfeit spirituality demonstrated by people such as Nalliah in this classic example and genuine christianity with a series of tests, the threefold tests of eternal life or the absence thereof.

    John wants to clear up the confusion engendered by counterfeit versions of christianity.

    Gnostics had redefined the knowledge of God, to the point that real christians doubted their own experience.

    The Gnostics were so spiritual, they had constant dreams, revelations, ecstatic experiences, encounters with angels, etc.

    They seemingly enjoyed an exalted spirituality, far beyond the simple bible based faith of ordinary christians. These people really seemed to know God in a deeper way! OR DID THEY?

    By Wayne on Jul 21, 2011

  231. “Christian Church” no one in four Christians are Pentecostals. I recall that at Sydney CLC, several times encouraging words were given me, that revealed my secret thoughts. According to Corinthians. Not Gnostics, Corinthians.

    Frank himself interpreted tongues with a word for me, according to my requests and prayers of that time, not hearing my reasoning. We were only just acquainted.

    Also Frank did stop during a preaching to answer a question on my mind. I am sure of Frank in that way.

    By Novatian on Jul 23, 2011

  232. As Frank Houston is dead and awaiting the judgement day he should be allowed to meet his maker without further comment from any but his victims.

    It is pointless attempting to play God in these situations regarding his position for eternity.

    Nalliah is the one who must be censured by BIBLE believing christians as fraudulently misrepresenting himself as “apostle to Australia.”

    The nonsense he is engaging in poses a threat to genuine christians everywhere as some have actually allowed themselves to be deceived by his nonsense and have thereby deserted genuine christianity in favour of this counterfeit faith he represents and champions.

    By Wayne on Jul 23, 2011

  233. Sounds like you want Frank condemned. I believe is judged already.

    Danny Nalliah may be boasting above himself or trying to hard. What’s his motive?

    By Novatian on Jul 24, 2011

  234. Leave that up to God - The victims may talk about the damage he has done to them if they find it therapeutic otherwise we all should FORGET him.

    Nalliah is the dangerous one because he is still alive and a menace to those who may be influenced by him!!!

    By Wayne on Jul 25, 2011

  235. The neo-pentecostalism of Nalliah et al (see various references provided throughout this blog site) places experience above the clear teaching of scripture.

    Leaders exploit this subjectivity and the corresponding lack of objectivity to achieve self promotion.

    This is another reason why those of us who will be saved MUST remain faithful to HIS objective TRUTH as provided for us in the Bible until the very end.

    Isaiah 40:

    6 A voice says, “Cry out.”
    And I said, “What shall I cry?”

    “All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field.
    7 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
    because the breath of the LORD blows on them.
    Surely the people are grass.

    8 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
    but the WORD of our God stands forever.”

    Ps. 138:2:

    “For You have magnified Your WORD above all
    Your name.”

    The Psalmist asks Psalm 119:9
    “How can a young man cleanse his way?
    He answers,
    “By taking heed according to Your Word.

    Just a few verses later
    v:11 “Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.”

    God’s word keeps us from sin and keeps us on his path, as the Word is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path (Ps.119:105) in a dark world.

    Ps. 43:3 Oh, send out Your light and Your truth! Let them lead me. As we read the Psalms we grasp the importance of the Word.

    To disregard God’s Word that is holy, pure and absolutely true is to defame God’s name and character.

    It is to bring ruin upon our walk.

    So HIS WORD MUST ALWAYS BE the main focal point in our daily walk with Christ.

    By Wayne on Jul 25, 2011

  236. Moses’ law is addressed to and for law breakers.

    The Gospel is addressed to sinners.

    We are to know God’s word to be led by the Spirit.

    We are not saved by special knowledge as suggested by the ancient Gnostics, from which comes the English word, “Know”.

    “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, are the children of God.” After you know the Gospel and turn to Jesus, you experience Jesus, presence, forgiveness… then you can begin to hit the mark right.

    By Novatian on Jul 27, 2011

  237. Tragically people are being lead astray by gnostic infiltrators such as Nalliah.

    This deception is what MUST be avoided by ALL who intend to remain faithful until the very end.

    Those who do are indeed The Faithful Remnant.

    By Wayne on Jul 27, 2011

  238. Revelations, God’s word mentions a huge number of people from all nations and tongues. Not a little remnant. That term is from the Old Testament, about Israel after wars or exiles…

    Jesus corrected the Pharisees for thinking that by the Word they were saved.

    By Novatian on Jul 27, 2011

  239. Why is it so important to listen to God’s message? Because God’s summons comes to those who listen to and believe the message, and through them His work is done.

    Notice John 6:29: “Jesus answered and said to them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.’” God is working salvation in all the earth (Psalm 74:12), and He is doing it in and through those who believe the Son. This, of course, is the Biblical Jesus NOT the New Age occultic Jesus of the Gnostic “anointed” ones.

    Only those who believe the Son will willingly submit to God’s sovereignty because they look to Him as their Ruler and to HIS WORD as their guide.

    The false teaching so prevalent throughout the Apostate church today is leading many to hell.

    Those who allow themselves to be deceived face eternal damnation as the consequence the Bible clearly warns about.

    Only those who remain FAITHFUL to HIS WORD will be saved.

    These are the multitudes referred to in revelations NOT the deluded ones going to hell falsely believing they are saved by virtue of perverted religion.

    By Wayne on Jul 28, 2011

  240. FALSE religion only has power to deceive it has NO power to save.

    By Wayne on Jul 28, 2011

  241. SOULS, SOULS, SOULS, God wants SOULS, saving souls he loves for eternity, fishing men. Jesus said to Peter he would fish men. Peter told Jesus to get away from him a “sinful man.” It is easier to turn a moving vehicle. Jesus is there pushing truth, giving life where souls are listening. It is DANGEROUS to stop souls being saved. They really will continue after they die. There is Danger in, no Holy Spirit, Gospel. And not honouring the Holy Spirit presences and powers. And heart winning power.

    By Novatian on Aug 3, 2011

  242. Dear Wayne,
    The first reference to Hell in the Hebrew/Jewish talmuds and Targums appears around AD. 300 via Rabbi Father Ben Uzziel.
    For a man obsessed with his own private view of the “Truth” it may be profitable for you to do some serious research.
    During a conversation with a friend of mine (a Priest) he stated that the church needs to repent of “False Teaching”. This is one of those very false teachings; Do some research!!!
    I previously wrote a quite detailed article on this subject.
    Christ tells us to “Love our enemies” yet you are suggesting that Christ himself fails to do this by burning preselected human beings in an everlasting torment.
    I CHALLENGE you to do some serious back ground investigation on this subject…..
    When you quote the plethora of verses you do maybe some background research would be of value.
    Cheers, Brother Kevin

    ***Moderators Note***
    Some Hebrew and Greek words that are key to understanding this topic.
    Sheol (Hebrew) - It is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead. It is not the grave or sepulcher, nor is it the eternal location of the souls of the dead. It is the same as the Greek word “Hades”, which we will look at. Prior to Jesus Christ’s resurrection, both the souls of the evil and the righteous went there after death. It is translated “grave” 31 times, “hell” 31 times, and “pit” 3 times in King James Version (KJV) of the Bible.
    Sheol (or Hades) has two separate halves.
    One side was and is reserved for the torment of the evil, while the other side, called “Abraham’s Bosom” in Luke 16:22, was for the comfort of the righteous. There is and impassable canyon, or gulf, between the two halves. When Christ was resurrected, he led the righteous out of Sheol to Heaven. Many (probably not all) of the Old Testament saints were resurrected into their immortal bodies at that time (Matthew 27:51-53). Since then, the souls of all of the saved people go directly to Heaven when their bodies die. The lost people still go to Sheol and join the lost people of the Old Testament in torment on one side of the canyon when they die. The other side of Sheol formerly known as Abraham’s Bosom has been vacant since Jesus Christ led the saints within it to heaven after His resurrection.
    Sheol (or Hades) is described as being “in the heart of the earth” in Matthew 12:40 and is said to be below, down, or beneath in passages such as Deuteronomy 32:22, Isaiah 14:9, and Ezekiel 31:16.
    The English word “Hell” refers to a place of eternal punishment for the wicked. Its meaning does not distinguish between the two separate places for the wicked to be punished, one temporary for the soul, and the other, the Lake of Fire, permanent for the soul and body. Nor does its meaning include the place of comfort for saints prior to Christ’s resurrection. In normal English conversation, “Hell” is used only in the negative sense, with no saved people ever going there.
    This caused some inadequate translations of “Sheol” and “Hades”. Often these words are translated “Hell”, which, as just explained, is rather ambiguous and non-descriptive. In many other places “Sheol” and “Hades” are translated as “grave”, but the grave is only the place for the body after death, not the place for the soul. This confusion often occurs when the verse refers to a righteous man going to “Sheol”, such as men like Jacob, Joseph, (Genesis 37:35) and Job (Job 14:13). Of course, these men did not go to a place of torment, but to the comfort side of Sheol (Hades), called Abraham’s Bosom.
    Hades (Greek) - It is identical to Sheol (Hebrew). It is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead. It is not the grave or sepulcher, nor is it the eternal location of the souls of the dead. Hades is translated “Hell” 10 times and “grave” once by KJV. It is the place for the soul, not the body.
    Gehenna —- (Greek, but originally from a Hebrew name) - translated “Hell” all 12 times in KJV It is the permanent place for destruction of the “… soul and body …” (Matthew 10:28). It is a place of “… fire that never shall be quenched” (Mark 9:45). In most of the references, it is clear from the context that those who enter Gehenna, do so in their bodies, not merely as bodiless souls. For this to happen, it must occur after the resurrection of the damned at the great white throne of judgment. Therefore, Gehenna is the Lake of Fire described in Revelation 19 and 20. It is presently uninhabited, but the Beast and the False Prophet will be cast into it at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 19:20). One thousand years later, Satan will be cast into it (Revelation 20:10) and will be followed shortly by the lost people of all previous time periods (Revelation 20:15). They will all enter Gehenna together, in there resurrected bodies, where they will remain in torment for all eternity.
    This Revelation 20 passage makes it clear that Hades and the Lake of Fire are not the same place.
    At the great white throne judgement at the end of the 1000 year kingdom, those in Hades will be removed from Hades, as Revelation 20:13 says, “… hell (Hades) delivered up the dead which were in them ….” And those which were in Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14-15). Note that the timing of this relocation of the lost occurs just before where Revelation 21:1 says, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.” Hades, which will be emptied in Revelation 20:13, apparently will them be destroyed, since it is in the heart of the first earth. <p>The future destruction of the wicked is symbolized by the Valley of Hinnom to which Gehenna refers. It is a place south of Jerusalem where the bodies of dead animals and rubbish were taken to be burned. The Valley of Hinnom was also the site of much human sacrifice to the pagan god Molech (2 Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 33:6, Jeremiah 32:35). The fire burned constantly in the valley since additional fuel was frequently being cast into it.
    Word study taken from article — http://www.matthewmcgee.org/helwords.html

    By Brother Kevin on Aug 3, 2011

  243. Delusion and false religion leads only to HELL!!!

    By Wayne on Aug 3, 2011

  244. The HOLY SPIRIT will ALWAYS lead in conformity to the Word of God.

    Any Spirit which leads away from the Word of God is satanic in origin.

    This occultic New Age religion masquerading as christianity is clearly unscriptural antiscriptural and superscriptural and as such is clearly satanic in origin.

    Satanic religion even though misrepresented as christian leads only to eternal damnation.

    Deliverance from this filth is a prerequisite to salvation!!!!!!

    By Wayne on Aug 3, 2011

  245. The “Word of God” is insufficient, due to need of interpretations.

    The Word of God points outside itself to the quote from the Letters “Anointing.” for a teacher. God made scripture and interpretation and God’s presence and power go together.

    Pointing to the simple scripture is an error, and is to open to misunderstanding. Jews have the scripture.
    ISV
    1Jo 2:26 I have written to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
    1Jo 2:27 The anointing you received from him abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. Instead, because his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not a lie, abide in him, as he taught you to do.
    1Jo 2:28 Even now, little children, abide in him. Then, when he appears, we will have confidence and will not turn away from him in shame at his coming.

    By Novatian on Aug 5, 2011

  246. It is crucial to EMPHASIZE at every opportunity that any spirit leading away from the Word of God is satanic in origin and MUST be resisted by ALL who will be saved.

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    By Wayne on Aug 6, 2011

  247. Galatians 5:9
    A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

    Your false teaching MUST NOT be allowed to pass by unchallenged.

    Your very dangerous anti bible teaching promoting extra biblical revelation is tragically similar to the nonsense of Nalliah and is appropriately addressed by the statement by Philip Powell as “dangerous neo-Pentecostal or Charismatic jargon” which MUST be rejected outright by ALL who wish to be part of the Faithful Remnant until the Judgement Day.

    “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3).
    “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine”
    (2 Timothy 4:2).
    “This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith” (Titus 1:13).
    “But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine”
    (Titus 2:1).
    “Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know [them], and be established in the present truth”
    (2 Peter 1:12).

    By Wayne on Aug 6, 2011

  248. Faithful remnant? Again, according to Revelation there will be a multitude.
    I did not mention a leading away from scripture, but through scripture, by the author.

    Your “Word of God” seems to mean according onlyto a little group’s interpretation. Where does the interpretation come from?

    By Novatian on Aug 7, 2011

  249. You are, of course, very welcome to whatever religion pleases you Novatian. I respect your right to your religious views.

    Your offence is that you seem to have your religion confused with christianity.

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    2 Thessalonians 2 :15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    By Wayne on Aug 7, 2011

  250. There are many passages of scripture which directly address your very dangerous religious views which are really nothing more than doctrines of demons the following scriptures are, however, particularly relevant

    Matthew 7

    13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.

    By virtue of the great apostasy which has promoted this occultic New AGE filth currently masquerading as christianity it is highly likely that this passage should read VERY FEW and that the Faithful Remnant will in fact be VERY FEW indeed.

    By Wayne on Aug 7, 2011

  251. “Very few” You use scripture to only contradict the verses I gave you. Scripture should explain scripture. Jesus also said:
    Mat 24:40 Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left:
    Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your Lord cometh. ASV.
    You call true teaching and the Spirit of grace, “filth”.
    If everyone believed only a little remnant are Christian, then there would only be a little remnant and many missing. Danger to them, and to the little remnant.

    By Novatian on Aug 8, 2011

  252. To David of September 25th 2007, God used sinners to give us His word, Noah would drink wine too much, Abraham was so afraid of a king he let him keep his wife Sarai, thinking he would otherwise be killed. But thank God, His Spirit saved her. Sexual sins are terrible and would have wounded the family honour which was so precious. Jacob acquired his father’s blessings by deception. Yet God’s words say, “Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.” Joseph’s brothers were going to kill him, but one changed it to selling him into slavery.

    Moses was inclined to rage. And Moses killed an Egyptian before fleeing Egyptian law, leaving Israel for forty years. Moses obeyed God to deliver Israel. And was used to experience God revealing Himself and His glory. To hear God’s word, and speak it accurately. Moses loved Israel and was willing to give his life rather then let God destroy the Hebrews and start again with Moses’ family. God used the Hebrews. Moses saw God’s back and saw the worship in Heaven, and built the temple format.

    King David sinned, in Psalm 40 he says his sins out number the hairs on his head. Later he has Uriah die, so he can quiet his adultery with Bathsheba, Uriah’s wife, and her resulting pregnancy. Nathan brings him to order and his repentance is in Psalm 51. David is led by the Spirit, and his post repentance son with Bathsheba is Joseph’s ancestor. And is also Mary’s. God so loved and favoured David, God called His own son, Son of David.

    At Peter’s calling he replied to Jesus, “Get away from me Lord, I am a sinful man.”
    All the disciples sinned. Abandoned Him.

    Saul of Tarsus before his calling overseas arrests and Stephen’s martyring. Then says his conscience is clear before all people, together with “I don’t do what I’d like to do, instead I do that which I hate.” Rom 7:15.
    There is more I can write.

    They are not Turkeys. God used sinners to address sinners. From Adam on, all are sinners. It is sad, and wrongful if you consider yourself to be a turkey. I mean is it a truth, from God, or a victory to a mocking spirit? Shouldn’t we be conscious of our righteousness from Jesus, instead of getting a label from a mocking spirit, or the world of unbelief?

    We all struggle within with the power in the flesh of sin, and with unclean spirits. Against our conscience, spirit and the Spirit of Grace. What defines and identified us?

    True, if someone dies characterized by evil. Then they are, and to evil spirits they go.
    But even if Frank struggled with sexual perversity sometimes, perhaps even in his last years, Christ defined him, by His Spirit within and by designing him long before his birth.

    Victory to Satan if someone is a turkey, all Satan’s years of thought and work.
    But Jesus’ blood redefines us!
    Jesus made a way from the fall of Adam, in theology called, Salvation, sanctification and Glorification. From sin to glory.

    Jesus’ love, creativity and recreation wins over and re-titles us. I hope you will agree.

    The Old Testament was written by strugglers who kept faith and loved God. It is an astonishing work and victory.
    Please resist mocking, low esteeming, and rejections. Love yourself and give it away.

    Many Hebrews were weaker and were kept by the prophets and teachers. They came to believe again and come to love God by the preachers.

    The New Testament was written by by strugglers who were justified. Our church leaders struggle. The Gospel was addressed to sinners first.

    Jesus understands our struggle first hand. He is amazed with us when we obey him despite hardship. He stands.

    Grace flows through the Gospel proclaimed. Even if by drunks, or homosexuals. It is from God to sinners as before. You don’t have to be perfect to love God, or pour out His Grace. Listeners can go from cold to warm, to luke warm to warm again. All along they can also grow bolder to pour out grace.

    Grace is often defined as God’s favour to undeserving sinners. So true, Jesus called His Spirit medicine to the sick. And while still sick, the teachers out-pour grace, living water, Jesus’ blood. In order to qualify we must confess to sin, to being sick. Children excepted.

    Jesus listed unclean thoughts:
    Murder, adultery, fornication, stealing, slander, blasphemy, deceptions.
    Calling people turkeys is sometimes a slander, even though some mean we are humble. But we are not so humble that we cannot arrange and manage church.
    Fornications and adulteries covers homosexual pedophilia.

    Jesus created Frank and every sinner, but not the character of sin, but then is the Gospel, and salvation, in it is re-creation!!
    I believe Jesus built into Frank’s character.
    Jesus has to use sinners who repented to incur more repentances and amendments in grace.

    Church is made of sinners by Jesus. We are not turkeys. We are more like eagles.

    Like God, the words we speak have creative power. We should speak Biblical truths and confidences. Use wisdom. Become holy, renewed in our minds, after the perfection of Jesus now glorified in our hearts.

    Dear Robbie, November 16, 2007, thanks for your words, we did see some of the character of Jesus built in Frank Houston. We all have to struggle with sin. And when Frank won, we heard grace. Not just the words of a man, but the New Testament in action, words from God. We were His church.

    I am a victim of church wrongdoing in Sydney CLC and elsewhere, and of Christians, and I hope my victimizers suffer discipline, leading them to justice and peace. And that they start to amend their ways and become helps. I hardly saw any of this but did. One such gave a word of wisdom after worship. So it does happen.

    Knowing this first hand it is good if people like Frank accord the Gospel and before they give their offering, ask forgiveness.

    Pray for mercy as for oneself for adversaries, that changes them.

    Thank God for all the strugglers, for grace and for Frank Houston. And for our freedom.

    By Novatian on Aug 9, 2011

  253. Mary Jesus’ mother is descended from Nathan, son of David, I should mention that.

    By Novatian on Aug 9, 2011

  254. Bible believing christians are completely comfortable with ALL 5 solas which address such false religion as you seem determined to persevere with Novatian.

    In the context of this blog site, however, it is essential to reiterate that apostasy leads the apostate away from the ONE means of salvation provided and thereby results in forfeiture of salvation.

    Sinful behaviour ALWAYS requires repentance or turning back to the TRUTH in doctrine and behaviour. The apostate MAY repent but but will NOT be saved unless they DO repent.

    The Bible teaches that there is ONLY one way to be saved and that is by faith in the ONE TRUE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.

    This provides NO room whatsoever for the occultic new age christ of the gnostic infiltrators that we have ALL been warned of MORE than adequately.

    Sola scriptura is the teaching that the Bible is the only inspired and authoritative word of God, is the only source for Christian doctrine, and is accessible to all—that is, it is perspicuous and self-interpreting. IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS IT MEANS.

    Sola fide is the teaching that justification (interpreted in Protestant theology as “being declared just by God”) is received by faith only, without any mixture of or need for good works, though in classical Protestant theology, saving faith is always evidenced, but NOT determined by good works.

    Sola gratia is the teaching that salvation comes by divine grace or “unmerited favor” only, not as something merited by the sinner. This means that salvation is an unearned gift from God for Jesus’ sake.

    Solus Christus is the teaching that Christ is the only mediator between God and man, and that there is salvation through no other (hence, the phrase is sometimes rendered in the ablative case, solo Christo, meaning that salvation is “by Christ alone”)

    Soli Deo gloria is the teaching that all glory is to be due to God alone, since salvation is accomplished solely through His will and action — not only the gift of the all-sufficient atonement of Jesus on the cross but also the gift of faith in that atonement, created in the heart of the believer by the Holy Spirit.

    1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    By Wayne on Aug 9, 2011

  255. Novatian,

    Genuine christianity is black and white based on the clear teachings of scripture which are available to all who will humbly seek what HE is saying.

    The BIBLE is very clear to the born again christian committed to HIS WORD as the sole basis for establishing matters of faith and morals.

    This stuff masquerading as christianity in these Last Days is satanic in origin and absolutely evil.

    People I have respected as christians over a lifetime are now hopelessly committed to this nonsense and have effectively sold their souls for worldly popularity based on the wisdom of men, particularly men who like to suggest that they have an “imparted anointing.” These are the people who like to suggest that they are necessary for us to be able to understand what the Word of God is saying to us.

    This, of course, is a lie of the devil.

    Everybody aware of this great delusion is obliged to share the Truth of the Word of God with all who will listen in the sincere hope that some may accept it and be spared the coming judgement.

    By Wayne on Aug 9, 2011

  256. Sola Scriptura is an oxymoron, for it points at at least two other things, the Holy Spirit of grace and inso living water, anointing oil and Jesus’ blood, fire, love itself and secondly wisdom.

    We need these things for eternal life.

    Sola Scriptura is a medieval teaching right?

    Romans is about righteousness, but a few verses are about sin, and they attract too much attention.

    Alike this the whole Bible is about the Living God dealing with lawlessness and bringing people inline through ones like Moses, who was out of line, and even more in the Gospel, we are brought inline by the apostles and Paul, former sinners to current sinners, testimonies of conversion and salvation. To inspire others to do the same. And yet Paul writes in two or three places to certain people in certain situations in Greece, that elders and deacons must have a good reputation, before being placed in authority.

    How do you interpret this?

    By Anonymous on Sep 14, 2011

  257. Sola Scriptura is an oxymoron. The scriptures point out at at least two other things. Wisdom and the Holy Spirit of grace, in such as Jesus’ blood, living water, fire, love. It point s to Jesus, and to the one He sent, the Holy Spirit the person, for salvation.

    Sola Scriptura is a medieval teaching.

    A method points to the methodist not The Spirit.

    By Novatian on Sep 14, 2011

  258. Sola Scriptura is one-fifth of the Reformational rally cry, as can be verified in a web search for +the+five+solas . It stands together with the 4 other “solas”, not apart from them, Novatian.
    It is not a mediaeval teaching per se, but rather is a Latinised phrase that echoes New Testament teachings. It concerns the source of our knowledge of spiritual matters, and therefore all of our life. “His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness”(2 Peter 1:3).
    Sola Scriptura does not concern a knowledge that is only intellectual, but one that also affects our attitudes and behaviours. This is quite apparent in 2 Peter 1:4-8 and regards the person who does not allow themself to be thus changed as a short-sighted and blind person (v9).
    Trusting this clarifies the term.
    Our understanding of Scripture is enlightened by the Holy Spirit, who is our ever-present companion, and the one who leads us into all the truth that is necessary for the godly callings on our lives. Without his presence with us no fruit of his will grow in our lives - and we would become like clanging cymbals. It is good how you’ve pointed this out many times. The grace of God to all who believe him is very rich indeed.
    May God bless you.

    By Paul, a mashed potato on Oct 24, 2011

  259. Hello Bros, Paul and Novation,
    I’ve been out of circulation for a while.
    I have been hard at my studies again and hopefully will start a thesis next year.
    I’ve dropped i to read the postings occasionaly, it would seem things have been quite for a bit; but it is enjoyable and of value to read both of your correspondance.
    You will be aware of my previous writings about the Scripture. The Anglican three legged stool; Scripture, Reason and Tradition.
    Tradition on its own is not all ways reliable and a quick read of “Pagan Christianity” Viola and Bana gives a good run down on this. Tradition is not all that it may seem.
    Reason is fair enough I suppose but we do reason from our own “world picture” and subjective experience>
    Scripture alone. Well on the outset this sounds quite grand and pious, BUT. There are many and varied ideas, doctrines and opinions gained from this approach. It must be understood that the Reformers were countering Romish Tradition in this.

    One of the difficulties whith Scripture alone is that by and large we have “Translations” to read. These are not always 100% acurate or reliable.

    I recently procured a Greek/Eglish New Testament with the NIV and NASB in the columns.
    The editor had put his english interpretation under the Greek. It would appear that we were reading 4 different books!
    I’ve since ordered the NET greek NT which is all Greek, no english at all even in the foot notes; so I’ll do my own translating.
    My point is that it takes years of serious “Wood Shedding” to rightly divide this life engrossing book.

    I refer to a great classic; Bullingers “Companion Bible”, this is a marvelous resource for serious consideration of the text. Bullinger outline much to do with “Figures of Speech” correct placement of words and there meanings. This is quite interseting as completely different conclusions of doctrine come out of some passages. A little example: “These shall go into everlasting torment.” is the usual english rendition.

    However in both Bullinger and Youngs Literal translation. “These shall go to a period of pruning”.

    This example will certainly get some response, However it is the more precise rendition of the words in the original Greek text. The punishment idea is a word more akin to the pruning of the Almond Tree. This view is followed also by Thayer and is consitant with the ancient Greek philosophers and pagan writers in antiquity.

    My point being that it is a long life time work the study of the scripture. We are dependant on the role of the translators to a large extent. I do not believe that our Father in heaven will persecute and damn us if we get a few things off the mark.

    Walking daily in faith, the journey looking to Christ the author and completer of our faith is the main thing.
    God bless you all.

    Cheers Bro Kevin

    By Bro Kevin on Oct 30, 2011

  260. Good to read your comment Bro Kevin,
    I’ve been using “The Precise Parallel New Testament” for some years now - it has a Greek text and 7 English translations all in a one page view format pasage-by-passage. Very reliable and useful in studies. Comparing translations is very helpful in learning the fuller meaning of the text if one is not a student of the original languages.

    Must be great down in the Snowy Mtns at present - streams full of fish, wildflowers blooming, horses frisking around …. beeeeautiful !!

    Cheers

    By Paul, a mashed potato on Nov 4, 2011

  261. I recommend e-sword freeware, with Young’s Literal Bible Translations and KJV with numbers and pointer prompted explanations, dozens of Bibles, parallel, comparison, Word phrase searches, maps, concordances…

    Will comment on the five solas later.

    Please tell me what you think of e-sword.net freeware.

    By Novatian on Nov 11, 2011

  262. Hello Novation,
    Yes I use e-sword. It is quite a thing to be able to access all those translations and books free of charge.
    I also use The Word which is another free resource.
    I like the Barnes’ commentary series on the bible. It is recommended via the college I studied with. The e-sword only provides a greatly abreviated version though.
    It is heartening to find that a lot of the older works are now in reprint and are a fraction of the cost they were originally sold at.
    For instance the 36 volumes of the Pre and Ante Nicean and early church fathers was around $1500. This is now availiable at $280 from my suppliers in the USA. I am wading through it.
    This is a plus for those continuing in theological studies as resorces are an enormous cost along with college fees!!

    I don’t know if advertising is acceptable on this blog but I deal a lot with CBD Bibles and Bible assessories in the USA. they stock Young’s Literal and just about everything at prices a fraction of the Australian costs.
    Some of my priest friends use the Book Depository as well.

    It is great to find that these resources are open to one and all I think. With such freely availiable information now I guess there is just no excuse to be ill informed on Religious matters.

    All the best,
    Bro Kevin.

    By Bro Kevin on Nov 18, 2011

  263. Dear Brother in Christ,

    WISH YOU A HAPPY CHRISTMAS
    Christmas greetings to you in the name of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ. My heartily greetings to you and your family. Here we are regularly praying for you and your welfare. I immense pleasure introduces my self as gospel worker, I am Pastor D.S. babu working from the last 15 years in the interior villages where the Gospel not yet been proclaimed. We are working in the hill and un-evangelized villages of our nation. Many people had been receiving Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.

    In our great nation of India, millions of people are dying every day. Among them, millions of people are dying due to many reasons without knowing the name of Jesus Christ even for one time in their lives. And millions of people are slipping into eternity without knowing Saviour. There are so many un-reached and un-evangelized places in our Country. India is a land plagued with great starvation and disease, a land where idol worship and false doctrine prevails among its billion inhabitants, a land desperate the Word of God.

    God has given me a lot of burden to reap the harvest. So, I need your fellowship and encouragement - Mt 9:37, Jn 4:35, 36, 2Tim 4:5. I am willing to be as a representative on behalf of you. Let us work together to win the lost souls at any cost and fill the gap. - Ps 133:1, 1Jn 1:3.

    If your kind heart responds to take part in our Great task of God, please make a plan to visit India according to Mk 16:15 in your convenient dates. I am kindly requesting you to prepare yourself to visit India with your heart touching and life changing messages. I hope you and your loved ones will be able to visit India as I am expecting God to give ‘a great outpouring of His miracle power to meet every need.’ Therefore, Humbly I am requesting you again and again to come and see God’s work in India and Snatch the perishing souls from the fire and save them - Jude 23, Mt 28:18-20.

    We will conduct the pastors conference to equip them with your leadership messages.

    Convey my best heartful wishes to each one of your family. Continuously, we are praying for you and waiting for your love and kindness. Please share some of your bread with our Nation - Prov 22:9.

    Whatever you do for Jesus and the gospel, God will give you 100 fold reward (Heb 6:10, Luke 6:35)
    Thank you for investing into the souls

    Your brother in Christ,

    D.S.Babu,
    Mandavari Dibba
    Cherukuvada
    Penugonda 534320
    W.G.Dist, A.P. S.India Email:dsbabu77@yahoo.com

    By D.S.Babu on Dec 10, 2011

  264. I was a kid in the 1970’s in New Zealand.
    We ALL [catholics, protestants,etc] knew that Frank houston and his ‘church’were really weird…with a lot of strange things happening with young people and to keep away. I didn’t know until years later that Hillsong australia would be the end result. I hear people saying ‘don’t you judge him’…God forgave him’. When? Was anybody there? I don’t condemn B.Houston for his fathers’sins…but i do condemn him for covering it up! “Ye shall know the tree from it’s fruit”…hillsong is the fruit of Frank Houston and his warped sexuality.

    By Steve on Feb 12, 2012

  265. Hello Steve,
    I too grew up in the South Island of NZ around the time you mention; I would have been in my early 20’s. I would suggest that by my experience Frank Houston was “Greatly” recieved as a guest speaker right throughout the length and breadth of NZ. My memory is that he was “Exitedly” anticipated by the penticostal style congregations with “eager” expectation.
    I have written quite a bit about this in past postings. You may wish to review some of them.
    Frank’s family and extended family were known to me. In fact I sat at McDonalds for breakfast chatting to Frank two weeks prior to his passing. I will make some things clear; I am an Anglican and not at all part of the Hillsong movement; However when I spoke with Frank he was full of praise for his late wife, he was full of praise for God and appeared to me as a man completely at peace with God and a man shriven of sin. In saying this I in no way diminish his darkness or the damage caused through his failings. But we should be a bit cautious in harsh judging of another man’s soul I think. As to Brian Knowing about all this; well I do not know. However it appeared that others certainly did. I’ve commented on these things before also.
    The issue of “The Fruit”; well that’s a bit of an old chestnut depending on where you’re coming from. Hillsong has “engaged” the young and young families where the Anglican and other historical churches have untill now refused to become in the least bit relevant in the contemporary setting.
    The Music they produce is great and good on them; some of the best contemporary hymnody produced anywhere. I am a functioning musician
    myself and I think it is wonderfull what they have achieved in their music. I performed for Hillsong many years ago while they were still in a school hall. They have achieved wonders over the last 30 years whilst crusty old historical churches are closing by the month and still bickering over who will polish the bass ware. Take another look. I’m sure Satan isn’t powering the place. Consider every denomianation including the horror of the Roman church. There is NOT a church alive that has not had some “Grubbiness” or “Harshness” to repent of. Review some of the literature around the mid-late 1800’s of the Scottish and English church. My God the harsh vindictive crimes against people. Even at a more contemporary level the snatching away of babaies from “unworthy” mothers.
    I would say that Hillsong gets 5 Golden Stars for being a really great movement.

    All the Best,
    Bro. Kevin
    I await the fire works.

    By Bro Kevin on Feb 28, 2012

  266. **Editors Comment**
    Although we enjoy Bro Kevin’s thoughts and appreciate his knowledge of Frank Houston’s past, clearly He is at odds with those who have studied the history of the Hillsong Movement, which is incremently step by step becoming aligned to the Roman church. Bro. Kevin is therefore only looking to bait others to see if any will bite….

    By Editor on Feb 28, 2012

  267. Thank you so much for your website and may God grant peace and love unto to you as you have touched our hearts,sure God is with you and we hope through Him is the one who gave you this wonderful teachings and call to His ministry full time and is the one who will also touch your heart to have good relationship in your ministry and God’s ministry,real you are God’s. We are also having orphans who need your hand of support please help where you can.We are a group of people who are seeking affiliation and membership in your ministry or church we are just like orphans here in Kenya and we pray that God to touch you and give us a cover and come and share with us the word of God.God bless your child who is going to respond to us through your wonderful son Jesus amen!
    Pastor Mary Onduso

    By Pastor Mary Onduso on Mar 19, 2012

  268. The Catholic church admits having become too political I think a brother said in the eighth century.

    We think differently because of it. Too much judging and condemnation, restriction. Not enough of healing rallies and love feasts, as went on into the fifth century, that is, the healing rallies.

    Peter, Paul John, the apostles did not get to write as governor advisers, about law with the sword, the barracks, the economy, human rights and freedoms. Our Bible was from under oppression days.

    Horrible to live in ancient Rome.

    Now we have evangelism revived and “Christian watch dogs” who seem to do nothing but criticize and proclaim no Gospel. In so, they only inhibit growth of numbers, thinking they do good for the believers and newcomers who need protection from false teachers.

    They don’t see Jesus passion for numbers. I read that a preacher wanting his own ministry and recreation jet is going wrong. In the minister’s eyes it may cut costs, or mean quicker travel, safer, faster, towards even just one more convert to Jesus. But the critic says, because he is not poor, none of his converts are real, and he needs to be exposed not much good. Prosperity teachers are not really making converts.

    I say, we best prosper for Jesus. Jesus would die just for one. Prosperity is good for the body and soul.

    By Novatian on May 2, 2012

  269. Hi to anyone reading this. My name is Graeme Houston and yes, I am Frank Houston’s son and Brian Houston’s older brother. Firstly I would just like to let you all know that although I believe in God and Jesus, always have and always will, I am not a practising christian and so there will be no sanctimonious quoting of scriptures etc here…. just facts. The last time I stepped inside a church was to receive the plaque from Mr Nalliah honouring my mother and father 5 years ago which was what this thread was supposedly about except that it became a Frank Houston / Hillsong thread (amongst all the other theological BS on the way)which is pretty typical of Mr Phillip Powells ability to deceive. But now that it has I will talk about Frank/ Hillsong.
    Firstly, I accepted Mr Nalliahs invitation to attend that night 5 years ago because I think my father deserved it and not because I think Mr Nalliah is some great man. Just for the record I think he is a great fraud!! He has contacted me since then about some prophecy he had about my family and I told him straight I wasn’t interested. Never heard from him again except that now it seems I am on his mailing list unfortunately but don’t worry, the newsletters get filed unread!
    Before I go any further I just want to warn anyone that I have read a little from certain people in this thread making statements about my mother Hazel. My mother was the most beautiful person you could ever meet. To me she was one of the few genuine Christians on this earth. She could be hard with you when it was warranted but she was kind, generous, loving, sympathetic…. I could go on and on. When the accusations about my father first surfaced she was devastated naturally enough in fact I still think thats what killed her.
    I have read here and in many other places that my Mother, me, Brian and the rest of my family must have known about my fathers behaviour… well take it from me, that is just unbelievable rubbish. I can post links to Phillip Powell articles that make that atrocious allegation against my mother, Brian, myself and the rest of my family which shows what kind of vindictive man Mr Powell really is! and he calls himself a Christian!
    You have to remember that Mr Powell and the AoG had a huge falling out many years ago and he is having great difficulty getting over it. As if anyone of us would have sat back knowing what he was allegedly doing and did nothing about it!
    Now about my father Frank! The first I knew about any of his “activities” for want of a better word was when Brian rang me one day out of the blue, because we rarely spoke, and said “I need to talk to you about dad. Can I come up tomorrow and see you?”. I lived about 300km away at the time so thought it must be serious and agreed. The next day Brian came up and told me all about the allegations, the known facts and the whole sordid story and also told me that when confronted about it my father broke down and admitted it was true. Needless to say I was shattered just as Brian was. We cried together for quite a while. It was devastating to say the least and I mean for all of us. Mum, Me, Brian, My sisters. Then we had to tell our kids and grandkids because it was coming out in the media. My kids and my siblings kids loved “poppa Houston” and he was about to be splashed all over the news for what he had done. Hardest thing I have ever done was tell my kids about it.
    I believe my father was bisexual rather than homosexual and I certainly don’t know about being a peadophile. I knew Peter Fowler from church as teenagers and we always used to joke about him being a “homo” as kids do because we thought he was!! He lied about his age when laying his complaint (said he was 15 but he was 17) and things like that. Sounds like I am defending my dad which I suppose I am in a way. I just think he was probably gay but not a paedophile. I also know that directly and indirectly he has helped millions of people around the world and the effects are still being seen today. Back to the original topic…Danny Nalliah’s a fraud and I’m no fan of Hillsongs brand of Christianity either but I wouldn’t call it a fraud

    By Graeme Houston on Sep 29, 2012

  270. Philip Powell - here:

    Thanks Graeme for your comments. I am happy to deal with them publicly but would have preferred to engage you privately in the first instance. Unfortunately I don’t have your contact details. If you are happy to do this then please write to me - philip@cwm.org.au I will happily phone you at any mutually convenient time.

    I need to say a few things to clarify or correct some of your comments:

    FIRSTLY, I have NOT spoken or written anything against your late mother, so what you say in that regard is just not true. I have carried out a search on the name “Hazel Houston” on our websites. There is nothing detrimental there by me.

    SECONDLY, in my opinion it was an outrage for your late father to have been honoured by Danny Nalliah. I have stated my reasons and have nothing to add in that regard.

    THIRDLY, I sympathise with the sense of shame that you and your brother Brian and your other siblings may feel about your late father’s proven “sins” when they were admitted and disclosed (at least in part). All I feel in that regard is deep sorrow for you all.

    FOURTHLY, the only other thing I would like to say at this stage is that my evidence points to the fact that the “Peter Fowler” incident was not the “sin” for which your late father was originally disciplined. Later Peter Fowler achieved some settlement with AoG-NZ. We have published his letter acknowledging this as a fact, though he would not disclose the nature or extent of the settlement. I do NOT know if either AoG-Australia or Hillsong was involved in the settlement or in any exchange of money, if in fact an exchange of money was involved.

    Before I say anything further I feel I should give you an opportunity to take up my offer.

    God bless you and your family Graeme.

    Sincerely in Christ,

    Philip L. POWELL.

    By Philip L. POWELL on Oct 10, 2012

  271. Hello Graeme,
    Good on you for speaking out. If you read my threads you will note that I chatted with your late father over breakfast at McDonalds two weeks prior to his passing. He was full of praise for his late wife Hazel and full of praise for God. Despite his shortcommings (which we all have) he appeared to me a man quite at peace with God. The Hillsong stuff gets rather “Shrill” with many people; but in my opinion they are doing a great job in Australia and around the world. I am not a member of Hillsong nor do I attend any of it’s franchises but they are filling a great vacuum that the old “Historical” churches have failed or are unintersted in bothering about. The fact remains that the older church denominations are dying and other expresions are rising up. While many of the old churches are still squabling about fixing their steeples Frank/Brian/Hillsong have grown and flourished.
    Some of the best Christian Music has come from this movement and blessed thousands around the world. I say let Frank rest in Peace. God bless you Graeme.
    Cheers Bro Kevin.

    By Bro Kevin on Oct 11, 2012

  272. Hi Bro Kevin. Thanks for your kind words. Yes I did read your previous posts and appreciated them. Interesting that you were talking to my Dad 2 weeks before he died. Thats more than Brian did!!! As I said, I am not a church goer and haven’t been since I was 18 or so (now 60.. YIKES!!) but I believe in my own take on Christianity. One thing I do believe is that God is a forgiving God and I am sure my Father would have cried out for forgiveness and received it. As I said, I am far from a Hillsong fan but have to agree with you that the anti stuff gets “shrill” sometimes by the “holier than thou” mobs. Their doctrine might not be correct but they spend millions on their programs to help the homeless, the drug and alcohol addicts, the single teenage mums, orphans and so on but you never hear about that.

    By Graeme Houston on Oct 18, 2012

  273. GRAEME - I await your private contact as listed above or a statement on this blog to the effect that you are happy for my full PUBLIC RESPONSE to your earlier blog statement, which did contain some wrong information and bottom line conclusions. I agree with your latest comment that our God is forgiving. That is one thing and it is not in dispute. However this issue raises other matters including issues of perception and tranparency. I feel sorry for you and for the entire Houston family but, with respect, the aftermath of your father’s admitted conduct reflects on an entire religious movement and their efforts to conceal the subsequent action and hidden contractural arrangements in order to avoid exposure. These are some of the things I am willing to discuss with you. I have no problem in discussing them publicly but feel I should offer to talk to you privately first.
    God bless you and your family.
    Sincerely in Christ,
    Philip L. Powell.

    By Editor on Oct 19, 2012

  274. Gospel and doctrinal TRUTH is just as important today as it has always been. This is a very interesting site for the committed Bible believing christian:

    http://www.thebereancall.org/content/roman-catholics-neighborhood-mission-field

    By Wayne on Oct 21, 2012

  275. … Graeme Houston, I have just recently found this site, and having read through all the comments … (being amazed that people can can throw such comments into the public arena) I came upon your two at the end. THANKS for what you said. I knew your father and mother when they were Salvation Army Officers in Levin, N.Z. also when they were in the Auckland area. Later when they were in Lower Hutt. I have stayed in their home there. No one but myself fully knows the influence that he had in my life. The things that I saw God do through that “earthen” vessel, is gems that I cherish. I did meet up again in Sydney when I moved from N.Z. to Melbourne.
    Yes Frank was a “earthen” vessel, like so many before him and after, making mistakes, but had to deal with them and a forgiving God when one comes and asks for it. May GOD be special to you, and I am glad that you are not part of the “system” that likes to put people into boxes, if you don’t fit then you are not welcome.

    By Ian Drinkwater on Oct 29, 2012

  276. @Graeme,
    Wayne’s post that “this is a very interesting site
    for for the committed Bible believing Christian”prompted me to post.

    If Wayne finds thirty years of dirty linen in pentecostalism, Later Rain, Catholicism etc.,, and KO rounds of “I know more Scripture than you do”, uplifting . . .give me strength!

    Graeme, I was a good friend of your younger sister and her husband in Melbourne in ‘69/70. We dined, worshipped, played some squash and BBq’s etc. Good times, lovely babies and then they moved to Sydney and we lost contact.

    I can understand why you lost your interest in Christianity. I did for many years after the 60’s and 70’s.

    I came upon this site researching old memories of my brief time with Immanuel aka Melbourne Christian Fellowship, and the Later Rain mob. Sadly infidelity was taking place in that Fellowship, evidently by its’ Leader. I have reflected on the thread through this site and wish to embrace you at this time.

    I was at the Sydney camp/convention that a previous poster referred to circa ‘69. Your Dad was a powerful, extrovert preacher, and was casting out demons at the end of the “service”.

    Was it theatre or godly, I now willingly refer to a Higher Authority?

    As to his weaknesses that have been worked over and no doubt embellished with the time factor, you have every right to uphold the many positive aspects of his ministry, and his love to you as a father, warmly remember your dear mother, and hopefully bond with your siblings.

    How sad it is that families can be torn apart and separated, by religious issues. The divisiveness of Separation is alive and well in Christendom.
    Kind Regards,

    Paul

    By paulanglican on Oct 30, 2012

  277. Since this matter has come up again, I just want to set a few things straight for the record

    As has been previously documented, In 2002 I made a complaint to the NZ AoG against Frank Houston for sexual abuse that occurred in 1972 when Frank was pastor of the Lower Hutt AoG and General Superintendent of the NZ AoG.

    After extensive correspondence and attempts to avoid the issue, the NZ AoG eventually convened a meeting of church leaders in Wellington and arranged for me to fly over from Sydney to give evidence. The NZ church then proceeded to fully investigate the matter and attempted to obtain the assistance of Brian Houston and Hillsong with their investigation. The younger Houston and Hillsong, stonewalled and refused to cooperate with or assist the NZ AoG in their investigation.

    It is important to note that at the time of my complaint, Frank Houston had already been censured for “Serious Moral Failure” by AoG Australia and banned from preaching. As Philip Powell pointed out, I was not the first to lay a complaint against Frank Houston and my complaint was not the reason for his demise at Hillsong.

    The NZ AoG were trying to ascertain if my allegations were similar to the other allegations that had been made against Houston in Australia. They were also seeking a response from Frank. However, as Hillsong and the Houston’s refused to cooperate, they had to compare my allegations with the evidence of other victims in NZ, who had previously come forward and of whom the NZ AoG were already aware.

    The comment that I lied about my age is incorrect. The NZ AoG was able to accurately identify the date of the abuse and verify my allegations to their satisfaction. Eventually a settlement was achieved which involved both an apology and modest financial compensation. I was also made aware of Frank’s other victims in NZ and subsequently made contact with one of them.

    Graeme, it is brave of you to step forward and make your comments on this blog in such an honest and refreshing manner. I feel great sympathy for you having to explain this to your children. Unfortunately such honestly and openness has been lacking from your younger brother Brian. It is understandable that Brian wished to limit the damage to the very successful and profitable Hillsong business. However, perhaps there is more to this than just a desire to protect his commercial interests.

    When I was a member of the Lower Hutt AoG in the early 70’s Brian played the drums and always seemed to me to be a little withdrawn and almost intellectually backward, which clearly he is isn’t or he would not have achieved his subsequent success with the Hillsong business. I was invited to the Houston home on more than one occasion and Brian seemed even more detached in that environment. Brian is about 2 years older than me and I now wonder if he himself may have been a victim of Frank’s abuse. Perhaps he was grateful when Frank’s attentions were directed at a younger man? If he was also a victim of his father’s sexual abuse, it would certainly explain his withdrawn behavior. Based on the profile of sexual predators in authority positions, their victims normally run into the hundreds (as is now being discovered about Jimmy Savile in the UK) and I’m sure the same applied to Frank Houston. There is no reason to assume that his family members would have been exempt or protected.

    I agree with Graeme that his mother was a good woman. Hazel was always very kind to me and I doubt she had any knowledge of Frank’s sexual behavior with young men. I’m sure that Graeme is correct when he says that Frank’s scandal in later life, possibly combined with what she found out that was never made public, probably did kill her. I would also agree that Frank’s sexuality was more bi-sexual than homosexual.

    Frank Houston was a very conflicted man and despite his predatory sexual behavior, he was often inspiring and fun to be around. As Graeme points out, he did many good things and helped many people. Something worth commenting on is that Frank appeared to live a relatively humble life in the 1970’s. He did not seem to value excessive material possessions and was not motivated by making money and enriching himself at the expense of his followers. Clearly he did not impart those values to his younger son Brian, who has been responsible for packaging the religion for profitable mass consumption, exploiting his followers and living his life in a style to which I suspect Frank would have been ashamed of. Maybe Frank changed when he moved to Australia, but that is how I remember him. I suspect that his intentions were mostly honorable, except when it came to his predatory sexual pursuits at the expense of those who trusted and respected him.

    During the school holidays in 1972 Frank took me on a trip in his 1964 Holden (Strange how we recall such minor details) to visit his mother and attend church meetings in Wanganui, where we stayed at his mother’s home. I enjoyed much of the trip and I can recall him teaching me how to tie and tie…another strange detail recalled after 40 years. Sadly and ironically it was in his mother’s home that he sexually abused me, which conveys a sense of just how conflicted he really was.

    I suspect that much of the problem is attributable to the guilt and “sin” that the church attaches to homosexuality. If Frank had felt free to come out and admit that he was gay or bi-sexual, he may have been able to pursue his sexuality in an open and honest manner with consenting adults. Perhaps this would have enabled him to avoid a life and ministry based on lies and deception and the reckless disregard for the trust that was placed in him as a Christian minister. However, we are talking about 1960’s/70’s New Zealand and a very bigoted view of homosexuality.

    Graeme, it was funny to read that you thought I was a “homo” at the time I was a teenager and member of the church in Lower Hutt. I guess that was because I was more sensitive and into arts/culture and not your typical kiwi sports obsessed bloke. It was a common misconception and perhaps one that your dad also shared, at least until we went on the trip to Wanganui together and stayed with your Grandmother! The truth is that I’ve never been sexually interested in men and my life has been rampantly heterosexual, but this is probably not the place to go into those details…LOL!

    Frank had a taste for fiery sermons that were theatrical in nature and they certainly achieved the desired entertainment value. However, regardless of the nonsense he preached, I do not believe his God has cast him into eternal damnation for any “sins”. If there is a God, I would like to think that he is a God of compassion and love who has forgiven Frank.

    I have forgiven Frank for what he did to me and I think we must all find it in our hearts to do the same. Frank was truly a wounded healer!

    By Peter Fowler on Nov 3, 2012

  278. Are you for real?

    False religion abounds and MUST be rejected by all who will be saved.

    False religion and false religious preactices generally precedes false living.

    By Wayne on Nov 4, 2012

  279. Jesus established His apostles as the ones who given the task of defining the gospel. This is consistent with what we read in Hebrews chapter two:

    1 Therefore we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For if the message spoken through angels proved to be so firm that every violation or disobedience received its just penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was first communicated through the Lord and was confirmed to us by those who heard him, 4 while God confirmed their witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will (Hebrews 2:1-4, emphasis mine).

    This is the gospel by which we must be saved (Romans 1:16). It is the gospel that we dare not change or set aside (Galatians 1:8-9). It is the gospel that we must proclaim to the lost, so that they may be saved (Romans 10:14-17). Let us listen well, then, to the gospel as Peter first proclaimed it at Pentecost. Let those rejoice who have received it, and let those who have not take heed to its warnings.

    False religion has NO power to save and MUST be rejected.

    By Wayne on Nov 4, 2012

  280. This issue really has been resolved

    As Frank Houston is dead and awaiting the judgement day he should be allowed to meet his maker without further comment from any but his victims.

    It is pointless attempting to play God in these situations regarding his position for eternity.

    Nalliah is the one who must be censured by BIBLE believing christians as fraudulently misrepresenting himself as “apostle to Australia.”

    The nonsense he is engaging in poses a threat to genuine christians everywhere as some have actually allowed themselves to be deceived by his nonsense and have thereby deserted genuine christianity in favour of this counterfeit faith he represents and champions.

    By Wayne on Nov 4, 2012

  281. To Graeme Houston and Peter Fowler
    I applaud you both
    I can’t even begin to fathom how you both must have suffered over this. Much more than any of us would ever know or ever understand - I have no doubt about that what so ever.
    You have both been innocent victims and must have endured unmerciful and relentless scrutiny by those who have no idea of what either of you have gone through emotionally and mentally in private. What a deeply personal shattering experience for all involved.
    I think you talking about the emotional impact of how we hurt each other resonates so much more than pointing fingers. It shows the true damage of real people with real feelings and real lives that have been unbelievably impacted through this.
    There are many sides to a story and everyone feels justified in their hurt. My husband was molested by a predator who groomed him over years as a young impressionable teenager. The man was also a community leader but not in the church and it destroyed my husband, absolutely destroyed him as a person. His family did nothing about it and to this day he trusts no-one and treats all people with a deep hidden contempt. But he would never do anything about it, buried it and has paid dearly in his marriage for it and in his relationships.
    Yes we all want to throw stones in our indignation but Jesus taught us we don’t have the right to only He does. As we would not be just in our anger – I know I certainly wouldn’t. I do think leaders of the church need to be held incredibly accountable very much so - to families, congregations and communities.
    But using grace to overlook another’s pain and suffering is not the Lord’s way. In the Old Testament the Lord commanded if you transgress a certain way then you are to atone a certain way. You are to pay back the person for your wrongdoing. It also says in the New Testament to obey the laws of the land.
    If it’s a criminal act it’s a criminal act. Something that AA does is for the abuse of the injustice is to amend their wrongs for however long it takes to help heal all those that suffered unjustly. This was based on biblical teachings of wrongdoing. That’s my understanding. That’s how the Lord wants things rectified so that everyone experiences healing, recompense and justice as much as is humanly possible.
    It’s just a sad, sad thing for everyone involved we don’t do this. If it’s any consolation I would like to say sorry for all you’ve both been through and are still going through. It must have been hell. The church can absolutely rip its own apart. I have sat back making my own quiet judgments over time about this when I see I had absolutely no right too. Not in any way shape or form - and I want to apologise to you both for that.
    You’ve both opened my eyes to my own stone throwing.
    Nadine

    By Nadine on Nov 8, 2012

  282. @Peter Fowler,

    Peter to outrageously allege that Frank Houston moved from abusing you, and then for you to invoke speculative immoral dealings with his own son is outrageous and low, and beneath contempt even in tabloid media. I have never heard such defilement alleged. Although you state you have forgiven Frank, your vicious innuendo speaks volumes. Your theology and ethics rationalisation are all over the place, and when one drills down on your post sadly it is full of mixed messages.
    paulanglican.

    By paulanglican on Nov 9, 2012

  283. It seems like exaggeration, true? Frank misused a position of responsibility, a bit, foul talk and action, then some think, Frank was an adulterer. Then a homosexual, then a pedophile then secretly so all his life, and he died that way, and went to Hell?

    @paulanglican, I see your point and must think about my own “volumes” regarding people who have made me angry. I have been brooding until I recently read a book on forgiveness by Ps Hogue in the US. My main offenders never said sorry, or tried much to mend the hurts. One wrongly taught me to “just forget.” Jesus’ promises of healing and restoration helps.

    By Novatian on Nov 12, 2012

  284. @paulanglican

    My post on this blog was intended to provide the perspective of one of Frank Houston’s victims. I did not intend to engage in any further comment. However, you have left me no choice but to respond to your aggressive and ungracious post.

    Following an extensive investigation lasting over a year, my allegations were proven to be valid and correct by the senior executives of the NZ AoG, who were Frank Houston’s employers at the time the abuse occurred. Clearly I was just one of many victims of Frank’s abuse in NZ during the 60’s and 70’s which is now a matter of public record in both NZ and Australia.

    In 2002, I also considered making a criminal complaint against Houston in NZ, but according to Houston’s family and legal representatives, he was suffering from “advanced dementia” and there was little chance of extradition from Australia to NZ to face trial and given these circumstances, even less chance of a conviction. I accepted this in good faith, which is why my only course of action was to pursue the matter with the NZ AoG. However, based on previous comments here, ie: “In fact I sat at McDonalds for breakfast chatting to Frank two weeks prior to his passing”, it seems his “advanced dementia” may have been used as a protection against potential prosecutions.

    When you suffer abuse and cannot confront your abuser, you are left with a void which can remain pervasive and destructive throughout life. In my case, I was denied the opportunity to confront Houston, even though he was still alive at the time I came forward with my allegations. In the end I had to accept an apology from his employers. Neither Frank Houston or his son Brian were willing to get involved and communicate with me.

    When I read Graeme Houston’s comments on this blog, I felt compelled to speak out in public about this for the first time in ten years. Had Graeme not made his thoughts public, I would have remained silent. However, Graeme chose to question my proven allegations against his father and also appeared to attempt to excuse the abuse, based on his bigoted and inaccurate perception of me as a teenager. Hence I responded accordingly.

    I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “invoke speculative immoral dealings with his own son”. I was responding to earlier comments made here by others regarding speculation that Frank’s sons may have also been victims of their father’s abuse. Graeme Houston had already commented about this speculation. As one of Frank’s victims who knew his family in the 1970’s, I felt it was appropriate to offer my perspective. As I said, “There is no reason to assume that his family members would have been exempt or protected”. Graeme has made it clear that he was not sexually abused by his father. We have yet to hear from Brian.

    Please do enlighten me about how you think my “vicious innuendo speaks volumes”. No innuendo was intended and I would be happy to correct any misunderstandings. What “volumes” do you think I had in mind?

    I would also appreciate you elaborating on your impression of how my theology and ethics rationalisation are “all over the place”. Perhaps you mean that my experience of life and spirituality is inconsistent with your own? I presented the facts of what happened to me and also made it clear that I had forgiven Frank for what he did to me. I do not have to justify or prove that the forgiveness in my heart is valid…a bizarre theological concept indeed…what right or basis do you have to question my forgiveness?

    I am a victim of Frank Houston’s sexual abuse and if anyone, including his children, seek to question my motives or the validity of what happened to me, I will continue to speak out and ensure that no one will ever forget that Frank Houston, despite the qualities which I have acknowledged, was essentially a fraud. He betrayed the trust of his church, his family and those in his care and was a disgrace to his religion.

    By Peter Fowler on Nov 12, 2012

  285. A look at Ted Haggard’s life on YouTube
     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94EnKUJQHI4&feature=youtube_gdata_player 
     will give you a good understanding of what Frank went through. I think there can be little doubt that Frank was sexually abused as a child. I knew Frank in the 70’s when I was 19 years old. He was a fun guy and liked to be one of the boys. I never experienced him grooming me nor any one else, however guys like Frank know who and who not to step over the line with. Pedophilia is a sexual attraction to children and that can be defined by the degree of vulnerability of the victim. All the complaints against Frank are by vulnerable boys, whether they be 14 or 19 yrs old is academic. Whilst Frank has created many victims we must remember that it’s highly likely that he was also a victim. Sexuality is expressed on a sliding scale and Frank was not at either end. Like Haggard, Frank was battling with desires that his religious beliefs would not allow him to discuss with others. He managed to admit to his heavy drinking in his early days but appears to have kept his abuse a dark secret.  I left christianity and became an agnostic whilst still keeping in touch with Frank and I did discuss with him why I found his and the AoG’s fixation with demon possession as the reason for mental illness (depression) to be a sick practice. I was surprised by his respect for my opinion and his continuing friendship. Like most Fundamentalist/Evangelical preachers, Frank had a mighty ego attached to a small intellect but never the less a heart of gold. The church is a community of souls all looking for meaning in life and companionship. Unfortunately this attracts a lot of sick souls including those that run the show. Because the church preaches and expects holiness from its flock, it is a hot bed of repressed desires that can pop out at any time.  All responsible parents should keep the channels of communication open with their children in order to reduce the chances of predators isolating and grooming them for abuse.

    By Bryan on Nov 14, 2012

  286. @Peter Fowler/novation
    Thank you both for posting, and “novation” seems to comprehend the concept of forgiveness with his heartfelt post. As neither of you (or I) referred to Scripture to qualify “forgive”, let’s keep it simple and use the secondary school textbook Australian Collins Dictionary as our reference. (Peter the NZ version would be the same).
    forgive 1. to cease to feel anger and resentment towards (a person who has offended) or at (an offending deed). 2. to pardon (a mistake).
    It would seem to me “novation” that you get the meaning, but when one reads the last two paragraphs of Peter Fowler’s last post, well, he simply does not get it. Notwithstanding Peter Fowler received and accepted a financial compensation for Frank H’s abuse from the AoG in 2002 (thirty years after the event).
    Peter Fowler,in your first post you stated that this was a “settlement”. Do you wish me to quote from the dictionary what the word settlement means?
    I think I will relax like Bro. Kevin with a glass of red, (Anglicans can do this with a clear conscience) and let this mess be seen for what it is. I will not post again on this subject.

    By paulanglican on Nov 16, 2012

  287. I’m am not sure why Paul the Anglican has made such a fuss of Peter Fowler’s story when he had stated previously;
    “…I had forgiven Frank for what he did to me. I do not have to justify or prove that the forgiveness in my heart is valid…”

    So the “dusting of your feet” may require some explanation?

    By Editor on Nov 17, 2012

  288. @Bryan
    Thanks for your intelligent contribution to this discussion…Your comment; “Frank had a mighty ego attached to a small intellect but never the less a heart of gold” is very true and it did make me smile.

    As you suggest, most abusers were often victims of abuse themselves and I suspect this may have been true for Frank. Your warning to parents is very relevant and they do indeed need to be vigilant, especially when their children are in the care of religious leaders.

    @paulanglican
    You seem determined to question the authenticity of my forgiveness and even my comprehension of what it means. Your comments are profoundly arrogant. They also display a lack of any intelligent grasp of the theology associated with the concept of forgiveness…perhaps something you will not find in your secondary school Collins dictionary.

    Forgiveness does not convey an acquittal of the perpetrator for their crime or sin. They remain guilty of what they did. We forgive them “for they know not what they do”. It is forgiveness given to the misguided and the lost soul.

    The natural human response is to seek revenge. Forgiveness is not a natural response and I have always considered it to be a truly admirable quality of Christianity. However, it does seem ironic that a non-Christian needs to explain this to an Anglican.
    After accusing me of innuendo, it appears that you have descended to this approach yourself. I’m sure we would all be delighted to hear what you mean by “see this mess for what is”. Just what do you think it is Paul?
    Unless you explain yourself, your implication is disgraceful in the true sense of THAT word!

    Perhaps you should have more than just a glass of wine…why not have a bottle or two with your clear Anglican conscience and then come back to share more of your thoughts with us.

    By Peter Fowler on Nov 18, 2012

  289. This site is more about the damage people like Nalliah are doing to the christian faith than about forgiveness or otherwise of a person already dead.

    Houston has had his day, Nalliah remains the dangerous one among the living.

    By Wayne on Nov 22, 2012

  290. The apostle Paul wanted the Gospel preached by anyone for any reason, while he was in prison, even if they were attempting to make things worse for him by doing so. Insincere. How is it some see a need to put down the Gospel from proclamation to criticize another’s Gospel message, maybe stop them, ones outside their own church?

    By Novatian on Dec 8, 2012

  291. Thank you Novatian for your comment.

    Yours is the typical and usual take on Paul’s statement in Philippians chapter 1 to the effect that he rejoiced when the Gospel was preached whatever the motivation. However what most overlook is that the apostle is here speaking of a true, not a false message. There is absolutely nothing in the passage which hints at a “false message”. In fact quite the contrary, by comparing Scripture with Scripture, which we are all enjoined to do, you must conclude that the message which the self promoting preachers of Philippians chapter 1 were proclaiming was the true Gospel.

    Elsewhere the same Paul warns against preaching a false message e.g. Galatians chapter 1, the epistle of Jude etc. Also our Lord warned many times about “false prophets” and false “anointed ones” (christs) i.e. those who preach a false message. The Bible never contradicts itself so this is the ONLY conclusion you can rightly make.

    The magnificence of the character of Paul the apostle shines through in the entire epistle to the Philippians and especially in chapter 1. He speaks of those who are simply trying to add to his “afflictions” by their preaching the Gospel. That was their motivation. Paul says he does not care so long as the true message is preached viz. “The Gospel”. Neither he nor his Lord would ever have any truck with false teachers who preach a distorted and false message.

    Two of those false teachers will be at the Hillsong Conference in 2013 - Rick Warren with his three legged “fool’s stool”; and Joel Osteen with his deceptive smile while he says that Mormons must be Christians because they tell him that they believe in Jesus. YES - which Jesus? The Mormon Jesus just like the Muslim Jesus is NOT the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible.

    Role on the GREAT APOSTASY.

    In Christ Alone we take our stand,

    Philip L. POWELL.

    By Editor on Dec 11, 2012

  292. I know but a little about Mormons, that their trinity are not of equal members, father greater than son greater than Holy Spirit… I think Jesus can show them mercy in death, I believe he is great in mercy. In particular if there is love in them… But their faith is shaky for salvation because of the need to believe in Jesus as equal to the Father, and in the fullness of the power of the Holy Spirit. And they have other writings that seem racist.

    What is it about Danny’s preaching that is evil? Another Gospel?

    Where does this go wrong? After the Great Awakening? The Holiness Movemement? Pentecostal Assemblies of God 1906? Wesley, Booth, Wigglesworth? Frank Houston? Is this a cessationist view?

    By Novatian on Dec 11, 2012

  293. Novatian:

    It is clear what message we are to preach - “Repent and believe THE Gospel.” In 1 Corinthians chapter 15 we are told what THE Gospel is. It all relates to Jesus Christ - His life, Death, Burial and proven Resurrection. The salvation offered by God to ALL men is vested in Christ’s NAME and in that message. Both Mormonism and Islam add other names and additional “revelations” to the “way of salvation” and that is condemned by the God of the Bible. Ironically neither Islam nor Mormonism can offer any secure salvation.

    Danny Nalliah is another kettle of fish. He boldly stood up to the Islamists and with his colleague Daniel Scot eventually won through on the widely publicised vilification case. We admire the Daniels, especially Daniel Scot who made the running in that case. We expose Danny Nalliah because of his self-promotion as being some sort of “apostle” to Australia and his documented false prophecies, despite his ducking and weaving. We also decry his posthumous promotion of the late Frank Houston as some great “Pentecostal”, when he was a known disciplined paedophile. DH did this knowingly and that was inexcusable.

    I and all within CWM are traditional (classic) Pentecostals who preach a holiness message. We reject the modern “faith prosperity” message which is definitely a false gospel. We are of the opinion that the passive endorsement of false teachers like Rick Warren and Joel Osteen
    and their teachings simply confuse the people as to what is the true Gospel. Our Lord taught that the way to life is narrow and those who find it comparatively few.

    We will stick to the true Gospel based on the Word of God alone.

    God bless you.

    In Christ Alone, Philip L. POWELL.

    By Editor on Dec 12, 2012

  294. Prosperity Philip, what is wrong prosperity?

    Why couldn’t Frank H work for the Gospel and conduit power? Many before him who were not faultless as much, more and less than Frank H did serve God. But I think only the sum of his best was great, greatly benevolent and salvific.

    Frank H was faulted and so was on a typically Biblical mission to the lost. Could Frank H be born again, a son of God, a servant, righteous and also be a paedophile? And King David an adulterer and son of God? Looking at Psalms 40 and 51.

    Can I read some examples of Danny’s past false prophecies?

    Being a Sydney sider, I do not know Danny N either.

    I heard of Rick Warren and Joel Osteen, I’ll have to look at their vision statements.

    By Novatian on Dec 12, 2012

  295. All of your questions and comments have been answered more than adequately on at least one occasion throughout this and other sites Novatian. You seem to be “forever learning but NEVER coming to or accepting a knowledge of the TRUTH.”

    Refusing to accept the clear teaching of the Word of God, the sole source of teaching on the christian faith and morality, is exactly the same as refusing to accept the salvation made freely available to us through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

    I have said before that this blog site is a christian blog site. Your views are particularly divergent from those of the committed conservative bible believing christian.

    The choice is entirely yours, of course, but please refrain from tediously revisiting the errors you espouse which have already been dealt with much more than adequately.

    By Wayne on Dec 13, 2012

  296. I must must read Luther’s Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidei. I debated with the Catholics about infallibility not only coming from the Magisterium.
    I agreed with them about infused rather than imputed righteousness.
    Luther suffered from “afectung”, disappointment time after time in confession, and with self flagellation… until he sought not via the priests to ask for for Christ to come into his heart. This made the greatest difference! This together with the truth of the scripture, that the Holy Spirit inspired it, through human authors. And that most of the Bible is about God’s presence with men and his love, means that the scriptures and the Holy Spirit give truth, not sola.
    By faith we receive the Holy Spirit, and salvation is his work on the heart, Phil 2:12,13. Not sola. Faith and Spirit, inside.
    Calling the beliefs of more than seven hundred million people “filth” is not polite or bright. I will contact Danny myself.

    By Novatian on Dec 17, 2012

  297. There is salvation in no one else but the Lord Jesus Christ presented to us in His Word the Bible alone by the Grace of God alone for His Glory alone.

    It is not difficult for those of us committed to accept the gracious gift of salvation made freely available to all of us. The Bible (conscientiously translated in accordance with scholarly principles) is the sole source of teaching on the christian faith and morality.

    Refusal to accept HIS way of salvation is punishable by eterbnal damnation.

    The choice is yours entirely. I can not make it any simpler than that.

    Narrow is the gate and straight is the way and (very) few there be that find it.

    Most professing christians love the false, the popular, the easy, the politically correct. Most are prepared to “follow the “anointed ones” without question. As the bible warns very few are prepared to pay the price of salvation HIS WAY.

    By Wayne on Dec 17, 2012

  298. NOVATIAN:

    I was intrigued by your name, so I did a Google search. I discovered you were born in 200 AD, a man of considerable learning, apparently educated in literary composition. So you are obviously worthy of respect. (I’m not really being facetious—just humorous!!) So with respect I am at a loss to relate or compute your comment “Calling the beliefs of more than seven hundred million people “filth” is not polite or bright.” Certainly it is not the language that I would use and I wonder what is your source.

    If you go to the end of one of our other strands in this same overall blog – “Gathering the Faithful Remnant” - http://www.christian-witness.org/blog/2008/10/17/gathering-the-faithful-remnant/ you’ll see that in the spirit of Christ and Christmas, as editor I have called for a truce. May be it would be good if we observed something similar in respect of this STRAND.

    When you have researched the matter regarding Danny Nalliah and his “Catch the Fire” ministry please feel free to return and make your comments. I have no doubt that while the late Frank Houston has certainly left this “vale of tears” sadly he left a huge thorn patch of sorrow behind him, from which a viper will continue to emerge to bite his denominations- CLC and AoG in Australia. The leaders of the AoG-Australia would like to think that Frank’s moral failure was only a once off. Of course paedophilia never stops at one case, as the RCC is also discovering.

    About two years ago I was contacted, right out of the blue, by a solicitor in the Newcastle region of NSW, who claimed that a client had alleged a similar accusation against the late Frank Houston. Since that contact I am told the person has ceased her work as a solicitor and it appears that her “client” has disappeared. May be he and that issue will re-emerge in the New Year, especially in the face of the announced Australian Government investigation into “child abuse”. I have little sympathy for religious leaders who hypocritically protect their own and their colleagues backs while they totally ignore the rights and claims of those who been abused. My sympathy lies with those who have been offended against. Frank Hiouston was an absolute hypocrite who deceived his wife and his family, his ministerial colleagues and denied his Lord. I have no doubt that he could find forgivenness if he came clean. For Danny Nalliah to honour him was an outrage.

    Happy Christmas and a wonderful New Year – to all.
    Philip L. Powell.

    Christian Witness Ministries.</p>

    By Editor on Dec 18, 2012

  299. Merry Christmas Philip.
    Wayne has called some of Pentecostalism, “filth”, such as on August 3 above.
    Maybe Frank came clean only with his wife. Because it would mean she had the choice of divorcing him by church law.
    I had made a friend on the internet. The early morning before I was to see her, she texted me that she had been attacked by a known intruder at 1 am and that she had been chased but evaded the worst. This sort of thing had really worried me! Then it happened. After I spoke to her, the intruder was in hospital, a Christian, I suggested talking to the police, she changed her story as to what happened. This is because she was a Bible literalist, and would not turn a brother in to the pagan authorities. Disputes for her, are to remain in the church. She is well now, and married.

    I was taught at TAFE not to sympathize but only empathize. Never trained in counsel at Bible college…

    I try to see it as God does. As in psalm 40, we are all obliged to talk of God’s justice and love, enduring the loss of our merits and laughs, “aha, aha” even if it hurts, insisting it is God’s merits not ours. His call, not David’s reputation as one who admitted to iniquities outnumbering the hairs on his head. Encouraging singers to face the proud, and not to lie.

    No one wants mockers to know their secret sins.

    Look at the news about how proud, austere, honour before justice, honourable people in Lebanon and India treat sinners who are caught. Pictures of a near naked man, being dragged by a hook in his chin along the ground, and then hung that way four metres up before hungry crowds.

    Indians want the same for a terrible criminal in the news right now, a group that attacked a bus. It was like this in old England and old Europe.

    Man and Christ are contrasted in the verse about people being likely to die for a good man, maybe for a just man, but for a sinner, never, yet Christ died for us while we were in sin. We are actually meant to admire him a little at first, then more.

    Following repentance there should be Inner Healing and Transformation. Fruit of the Spirit. Humility continued. We only receive grace after humility, and then should not become proud judges.

    I appreciate looking back at Wayne’s comment to I know to read Martin Luther’s Solas.

    Hope this season you cherish the memory of baby Jesus. All the best.

    By Novatian on Dec 21, 2012

  300. I thought I had said my piece once and for all on this topic but somehow I have ended up back here again! (followed a link from another website where my name featured prominently thanks to my previous posts) lol. Firstly I want to thank all of those that supported me and my comments including Mr Phillip Powell and Peter Fowler. These will be the last comments I ever make on the subject because my father is dead and buried and I think it is time people just moved on. Deal with topics of importance in todays world and into the future. Just a couple of quick things. Firstly thanks to Mr Powell for the offer of talking to me privately, I appreciate it but it won’t acheive anything. I am over the whole sordid saga and I don’t get why others aren’t. The bloke is dead and buried and has been for some time. Secondly To Peter Fowler, the message you posted was very well written but to say Frank molested Brian or that Brian knew anything is complete garbage as I said earlier and brought your whole post crashing down in a heap. Sorry but I just don’t get the ongoing morbid interest in it. It was extremely sad for us as a family and extremely sad for the victims and their families. But surely it is time to talk about the here and now ….. Now as for Danny Nahlia … hmm. Have a great Christmas all and an excellent 2013. I know I will. Thanks for listening.

    By Graeme Houston on Dec 23, 2012

  301. This IS the last one. I should have read all the posts since my first comment but I only scanned them quickly. First a sincere apology to Peter Fowler. After reading your later post I went back and re-read mine and it certainly did sound like I was doubting you, believe me I wasn’t. Secondly to Mr Powell I also apologise. I read the accusations Re: My family being abused on your old website but it was in a letter to you not written by you I think from Memory.

    By Graeme Houston on Dec 23, 2012

  302. Thanks to all, especially to Peter Fowler and Graeme Houston. I know it would not have been easy for either of you to comment as you did. Truth will ultimately triumph over popularity. Thanks also to Wayne and Novatian and the rightful pointing out that the late Frank Houston has run his course, sad though it was, not just in his “sinful, criminal acts” as a “minister” but in his deception of his family, friends, colleagues and “churches” over so many years.

    We will leave this strand in tack as a record and so as to allow any additional abused people to make expressions. As was pointed out, in the above comments the major issue now relates to Danny Nalliah and his preposterous claim to being an “apostle” notwithstanding his silly “honouring” ceremony and his several claims to uttering “prophecy”, which was mostly false as has been pointed out. Sadly neither he nor his representatives seem willing to comment.

    God bless you all and a very Happy New Year.

    Philip L. Powell.

    By Editor on Jan 1, 2013

  303. Grace to you, and peace from father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Hai Brother. How are you. Am very pleasure to send this email to your mail. Please see my ministry website and please pray for my ministry. And God force to heart means please help me to this ministry. In my church peoples all of them belivable persons for our jesus Christ. And we are also praying for you and your ministry. Jesus hands is always bless for you and your family and your ministries. God bless you.

    Pastor:V.Jebaraj.

    Our Website: www.revivalgospelministries.com.

    Our I.D. : 1. revival_gospel_ministry@yahoo.com.

    2. revivalgospelministry.church@gmail.com.

    Wanted Offerings:
    ————————–
    1. We want to build a new church.Because Now we are prayed in a small room and it was also a rent place. In every month. New persons are entered in my ministry. Bur our church place is not enough it.

    2. Childrens ministry, we are willing to encourage the children with giving to any gift items. Please help me for this.

    3. Youth ministry, village ministry, elders ministry.. Three kind of visions in ministry. They are

    1. Open door prayers.

    2. 24 hour prayer.

    3. Good works.

    But we have no amount to maintain to this kind of ministry

    4 We are willing to spend the good works (ie) childrens prayer club, To help to elders and poor childrens or Students, sickness people.

    God Bless You.

    Our Bank Account
    —————————
    Revival Gospel Ministry.
    State bank of India, Kovilpatti Branch, Tuticorin District, Tamil Nadu,
    India.
    A/C No: 30372945956.
    IFSC: SBIN0000859.
    MICR:627002011.
    BSR: 0000859.

    By Pastor:V.Jebaraj on May 25, 2013

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